Constitutional Monarchy

[marke]

I don't really care anything about what you "believe". What I'm here for is to debate. The case has been made that your belief is wrong. You can choose to ignore it and bore everyone here to death or you can apply yourself to defending your faith and make an argument either in defense of your own belief or in refutation of ours.

Go ahead, marke! Try to make a biblical case in defense of a republican form of government, constitutional or other wise. Show us all were God promotes, defends or otherwise endorses (even by implication) any sort of republican form of government or even a democratic form for that matter. (Note that the terms "republican" and "democratic" are not spelled with capital letters and are not in reference to the modern political parties but refer to republics and democracies.)

Clete

Let me tell you something about debates. You are wrong to assume that once you give your opinion the discussion is over and everyone is to be declared in the wrong if they disagree with you.

God does not condemn a republic form of government any more than he condemns a monarchy or a communist government. I don't know where you are finding all this in the Bible. What scriptures clearly narrow down God's choice of a particular form of government? Just because kingdoms are mentioned in the Bible does not mean that is the only form of government God approves or disapproves of.

 

[marke]

Answer me directly, marke.

Have you read any of the things we've linked to that explain what it is we are proposing?

Yes or no.

Yes, which is why I responded with my rebuttal of those opinions.

 

[Right Divider]

Let me tell you something about debates. You are wrong to assume that once you give your opinion the discussion is over and everyone is to be declared in the wrong if they disagree with you.

Clete is not just "giving his opinion", that's what you do.
Clete makes arguments and uses facts. Something that you seem very unfamiliar with.

God does not condemn a republic form of government any more than he condemns a monarchy or a communist government. I don't know where you are finding all this in the Bible.

That's because you never bother to look at the text presented to you.

What scriptures clearly narrow down God's choice of a particular form of government?

You were a pastor and yet you are this unfamiliar with the Biblical text?

Just because kingdoms are mentioned in the Bible does not mean that is the only form of government God approves or disapproves of.

 

[marke]

Great. What was the point of pointing that out?


Yeah, so what?


"Former pastor" explains a great deal about your stubbornness on this forum. Of all the people in the world, pastors are the most entrenched in their doctrine. They've spent too much time and money learning what they believe to ever considered altering it in any substantive way.


Nicely placed in murky middle ground of both agreeing with us but without any substantive detail.

When do you think God had it in mind to give Israel a king?

Be specific.

Clete

Did God favor divorce? No. Did God allow divorce? Yes. That does not mean God condemned divorce at first but then favored divorce later. Was God displeased with Israel when they asked for a king? Yes. Why? Because they asked too early? No, because they were seeking to follow the world's way of life instead of trusting God. Did God later want Israel to ask for a king or to get a king? He allowed it but I do not think He favored them seeking earthly leadership at the expense of their reliance on God.

 

[marke]

Clete is not just "giving his opinion", that's what you do.
Clete makes arguments and uses facts. Something that you seem very unfamiliar with.

That's because you never bother to look at the text presented to you.

You were a pastor and yet you are this unfamiliar with the Biblical text?

It is common for the immature Christian to give his opinions in cases like this thinking his opinions are eternal truth while all opposing opinions are of the devil. Christians should not trust in their own opinions like that.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Proverbs 21:2
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts.

 

[Right Divider]

It is common for the immature Christian to give his opinions in cases like this thinking his opinions are eternal truth while all opposing opinions are of the devil.

That describes you perfectly.

Christians should not trust in their own opinions like that.

No, you shouldn't.

 

[JudgeRightly]

It is common for the immature Christian to give his opinions in cases like this thinking his opinions are eternal truth while all opposing opinions are of the devil. Christians should not trust in their own opinions like that.

You should take your own advice.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Let me tell you something about debates. You are wrong to assume that once you give your opinion the discussion is over and everyone is to be declared in the wrong if they disagree with you.

Says the one doing exactly that.

God does not condemn a republic form of government any more than he condemns a monarchy or a communist government.

Numbers 16
vs
1 Samuel 8

You were saying?

I don't know where you are finding all this in the Bible.

We've given you the verses. All you have to do is read them.

I literally quoted the majority of Numbers 16 to make the point that God DOES IN FACT condemn representative forms of government, executing those who propose them, while not executing those who ask for a king (because He planned for His nation to have a king anyways).

What scriptures clearly narrow down God's choice of a particular form of government?

1 and 2 "Kings"

1 Samuel 8.... 1 Samuel 16....

1 Timothy 6:15

Revelation 17:14

Revelation 19:16

Jesus is not "Senator of Senators." He is the King of Kings!

Just because kingdoms are mentioned in the Bible does not mean that is the only form of government God approves or disapproves of.

So make the argument, marke! Make the argument that God approves of other forms of governments other than monarchies!

 

[marke]

You should take your own advice.

Everyone born-again believer should humbly follow God's reproof, rebuke, instruction, and correction in order to become a better Christian.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Everyone born-again believer should humbly follow God's reproof, rebuke, instruction, and correction in order to become a better Christian.

Again, take your own advice.

 

[marke]

Says the one doing exactly that.



Numbers 16
vs
1 Samuel 8

You were saying?

I said nothing yet concerning Korah. However, I fail to see how Moses' appointment by God to lead Israel is somehow to be taken as a mandate for America to follow a single leader appointed by God.

Numbers 16
3 And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the Lord?

4 And when Moses heard it, he fell upon his face:

5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the Lord will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.

I do not believe the king Samuel was going to appoint was something God was going to use to bless Israel more than to curse them for rejecting God.

1 Samuel 8

9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.

10 And Samuel told all the words of the Lord unto the people that asked of him a king.

11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.

12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.

13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.

14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.

15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.

16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.

17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.

18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day.

We've given you the verses. All you have to do is read them.

I literally quoted the majority of Numbers 16 to make the point that God DOES IN FACT condemn representative forms of government, executing those who propose them, while not executing those who ask for a king (because He planned for His nation to have a king anyways).

You claim God condemns representative forms of government because of Numbers 16? Do you believe God wants America ruled by a king appointed by God to lead His people through the wilderness? If not, then why are you trying to stretch the OT into contortions to support questionable ideas pertaining to America? How is God to choose this king, by casting lots? By having a democrat committee appoint the king? By having fundamentalist Baptists form a committee to appoint the king? I don't think any of that has anything to do with God's will for America.

1 and 2 "Kings"

Two books of kings filled with good and bad kings and bad deeds of all kings. How is America to become a kingdom ruled by a good king appointed by God? Is this good king appointed by God to rule without sin? Are his sons to take control of his kingdom when he dies? Who is coming up with these things?

1 Samuel 8.... 1 Samuel 16....

1 Timothy 6:15

1 Timothy 6

6 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

How are we to interpret these verses? That we should support slavery until Jesus returns? What about an earthly king for America until then? Should he support slavery and oppress the people to keep them humble?

 

[JudgeRightly]

I said nothing yet concerning Korah.

I'm aware.

However, I fail to see how Moses' appointment by God to lead Israel is somehow to be taken as a mandate for America to follow a single leader appointed by God.

Straw man. I never said it should be, nor implied such.

The argument I was making was that God wanted to reign over Israel. Part of His plan was to establish a line of kings, through which He would send His Son to reign (as Clete said) as their final King.

Korah's rebellion was just that, a rebellion against God's plan, because God wanted to establish a monarchy.

That is inherently a preference for a monarchy over a representative form of government.

I do not believe the king Samuel was going to appoint was something God was going to use to bless Israel more than to curse them for rejecting God.

So God coming as a baby in a manger as a descendant of a long line of kings, and then returning to reign over them, isn't a blessing for Israel?

DO YOU EVEN HEAR YOURSELF!?

1 Samuel 8

9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.

10 And Samuel told all the words of the Lord unto the people that asked of him a king.

11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.

12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.

13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.

14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.

15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.

16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.

17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.

18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day.

You claim God condemns representative forms of government because of Numbers 16?

Not JUST because of Numbers 16, but it's one of the bigger reasons!

Do you believe God wants America ruled by a king

I believe God wants EVERY nation ruled by a government that is inherently accountable for its actions. A Constitutional Monarchy is THE MOST inherently accountable system, so yes.

appointed by God

NO. Chosen by lottery (to what extent is to be determined, as per my discussion between myself and Clete).

to lead His people through the wilderness?

NO.

Talk about missing the point!

If not, then why are you trying to stretch the OT into contortions

I'm not.

to support questionable ideas

You have yet to call them into question.

pertaining to America?

Because I live in America. What I'm saying, however, applies to EVERY nation, not just America.

How is God to choose this king, by casting lots? By having a democrat committee appoint the king? By having fundamentalist Baptists form a committee to appoint the king?

The answer to EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. OF. THESE. QUESTIONS. Is in the https://kgov.com/constitution link on the Biblical defence article for the proposed constitution. The Constitution link I just gave you is ALSO in the OP.

IT'S WHAT THE ENTIRE THREAD IS ABOUT!!!

The VERY LEAST you could do is read it!

I don't think any of that has anything to do with God's will for America.

That's nice, now make the argument.

Two books of kings filled with good and bad kings and bad deeds of all kings.

Indeed!

How is America to become a kingdom ruled by a good king

By allowing for both good and bad kings to rule, rather than having a system that GUARANTEES evil rulers.

appointed by God?

Not appointed by God. Had you read the link in the OP, you would know that.

Is this good king appointed by God

No.

to rule without sin?

No human is without sin, other than Christ.

Are his sons to take control of his kingdom when he dies?

The firstborn son is.

Who is coming up with these things?

Bob Enyart.

Go read the https://kgov.com/constitution link.

How are we to interpret these verses? That we should support slavery until Jesus returns? What about an earthly king for America until then? Should he support slavery and oppress the people to keep them humble?

Again, missing the point. I didn't cite the previous verses for a reason, marke, and I stated that very reason IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING the citation of that verse, which you have excluded from your response here!

 

[Clete]

Let me tell you something about debates. You are wrong to assume that once you give your opinion the discussion is over and everyone is to be declared in the wrong if they disagree with you.

You don't have to tell me that! I'm the one here always begging people to make an argument and stop pretending like just because they've stated their opinion that it counts as having made an argument, much less counting as having established their theological position.

God does not condemn a republic form of government any more than he condemns a monarchy or a communist government.

False!

You'd know better had you bothered to read anything you've been asked to read in order to get up to speed with what is being discussed.

I don't know where you are finding all this in the Bible.

You'd know precisely where we're finding it had you bothered to read anything you've been asked to read in order to get up to speed with what is being discussed.

What scriptures clearly narrow down God's choice of a particular form of government?

I've linked to that information more than once already.

Just because kingdoms are mentioned in the Bible does not mean that is the only form of government God approves or disapproves of.

Why would God choose to implement anything other than the best possible form of government? Are you wiser than God? What makes you think that a constitutional republic is in anyway superior to a constitutional monarchy?

At the very least, and by your own admission, I have on my side of the debate the fact that God not only endorsed but personally set up a constitutional monarchy in scripture. What have you got, your personal opinion?

Clete

 

[Clete]

Yes, which is why I responded with my rebuttal of those opinions.

You are a liar, marke!

There is no way you could have asked the questions you asked in your last post had you read it.

You aught to be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Clete]

Did God favor divorce? No. Did God allow divorce? Yes. That does not mean God condemned divorce at first but then favored divorce later. Was God displeased with Israel when they asked for a king? Yes. Why? Because they asked too early? No, because they were seeking to follow the world's way of life instead of trusting God. Did God later want Israel to ask for a king or to get a king? He allowed it but I do not think He favored them seeking earthly leadership at the expense of their reliance on God.

Personal opinions bore me to death. I do not care what you "do not think" is true. Can you establish ANY of this with scripture?

NOPE!

Will you even try?

Nope!

 

[marke]

I'm aware.
Straw man. I never said it should be, nor implied such.
The argument I was making was that God wanted to reign over Israel. Part of His plan was to establish a line of kings, through which He would send His Son to reign (as Clete said) as their final King.

Korah's rebellion was just that, a rebellion against God's plan, because God wanted to establish a monarchy.

That is inherently a preference for a monarchy over a representative form of government.

So God coming as a baby in a manger as a descendant of a long line of kings, and then returning to reign over them, isn't a blessing for Israel?

DO YOU EVEN HEAR YOURSELF!?

God was reigning over Israel before Samuel appointed a king. He did not need a series of good and bad kings in order to do that.

Not JUST because of Numbers 16, but it's one of the bigger reasons!

I believe God wants EVERY nation ruled by a government that is inherently accountable for its actions. A Constitutional Monarchy is THE MOST inherently accountable system, so yes.

I do not believe a nation ruled by a corrupt king is the best God has for humans to be governed by.

 

[marke]

You don't have to tell me that! I'm the one here always begging people to make an argument and stop pretending like just because they've stated their opinion that it counts as having made an argument, much less counting as having established their theological position.
False!

You'd know better had you bothered to read anything you've been asked to read in order to get up to speed with what is being discussed.

You are wrong. Reading your books, listening to your sermons, participating in your discussions will not change my mind if I believe your arguments are flawed.

You'd know precisely where we're finding it had you bothered to read anything you've been asked to read in order to get up to speed with what is being discussed.
I've linked to that information more than once already.

Why would God choose to implement anything other than the best possible form of government? Are you wiser than God? What makes you think that a constitutional republic is in anyway superior to a constitutional monarchy?

At the very least, and by your own admission, I have on my side of the debate the fact that God not only endorsed but personally set up a constitutional monarchy in scripture. What have you got, your personal opinion?

Clete

I don't believe it is a given that God established the English monarchy but I do believe God blessed Christians who set up the Constitutional Republic in America to avoid the problems they saw in the English monarchy.

 

[marke]

You are a liar, marke!

There is no way you could have asked the questions you asked in your last post had you read it.

You aught to be ashamed of yourself.

I don't always read the materials others give me to support their flawed opinions, but I do read the Bible. Now if you had posted Scripture with your interpretation then I could have responded to that.

 

[marke]

Personal opinions bore me to death. I do not care what you "do not think" is true. Can you establish ANY of this with scripture?

NOPE!

Will you even try?

Nope!

I can prove God does not favor divorce, but I find it hard to believe you don't already agree with God on that. It is not my opinion that God made provisions for divorce due to the sinfulness of humans.

Malachi 2:16
For the Lord, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the Lord of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.

Matthew 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

You will have to post the Bible verses that give you the idea you think is irrefutable that God wants Americans governed by a human king.

 

[JudgeRightly]

God was reigning over Israel before Samuel appointed a king.

Yes He was. Your point?

He did not need a series of good and bad kings in order to do that.

He needed it so that His Son, who would come AS A MAN to die for the sin of mankind, would be of the very lineage of those kings, TO BE CALLED KING OF KINGS! IT WAS PART OF HIS PLAN, MARKE!

Once again, you IGNORE the fact that in Deuteronomy 17, God has laws specifically for how Israel's kings should act!

You don't include laws for a king if you don't plan on having a kingdom!

I do not believe a nation ruled by a corrupt king is the best God has for humans to be governed by.

SO MAKE THE ARGUMENT THEN! Make the argument from scripture for your preferred form of human government! You won't, because you cannot!