Constitution of America by Enyart is right or wrong?

[Clete]

Clete,

Well, this is where I don't see it that way. It is a very hypothetical scenario and premise. For the only example we have is OT government, which was Israel and God, hand-in-hand. The most important point here is that GOD was working with Israel DIRECTLY, dealing with them through prophets and DIRECT intervention. He has NOT done that with any governmental system since Israel was set aside.

I don't see any of this as relevant because no one has made any such arguments in favor of a Bible based constitutional monarchy. The position simply is not based on God's direct intervention and participation in it.

So, what is a "Godly" government?

Or perhaps just as good a question would be which forms of government does God appose in Scripture?

"Representative governments" would be one good answer to that question, by the way.

One could NOT use Israel as an example, because God is NOT operating through them today or any nation today. Plus, God had one-on-one communication & interaction with them. So everything today would pale in comparison.

Again, since no one has used God's interaction as a basis for their advocacy of a monarchy over other forms of government, this argument is moot.

Just Laws -
I would agree that "just laws" are better, no doubt.

Well, its good to see we have some common ground!

far more people would get saved than do now.-
I would have to disagree.

You would need to read your Bible more thoroughly then, especially Galatians 3 where it talks about the purpose of the law.

Morality breeds self-righteousness. When one feels "moral" then they further themselves from the necessity of needing a Savior.

Which is exactly why you want the laws to be just! A just government and criminal justice system would not breed self-righteousness; that's what our miserable excuse for a legal system does but a righteous system would not do so. People in our society believe that anything that is legal is okay! A just system would teach people right from wrong and show them that they are in need of a savior. That is a primary reason the law was given.

The Bible is riddled with examples of that. Israel, when they become "moral" and lived for God as A NATION, they always rebelled and fell back into sin, only then, did they repent and draw closer to God. Once the 2nd generation was living under this prosperous and MORAL time, they became wicked.

Yikes! I don't think you realize what you are saying here Pettrix! You are effectively arguing against God's law! It wasn't the law that made Israel evil it was their rebellion against it! Remember what Jesus said to the Pharisees?...

Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.​

Look at the gospels, who came to Christ? Was it the MORAL Scribes & Pharisees, NOPE. It was the prostitutes, thieves and the wicked.

Jesus preached the law Pettrix! The whole gospel message was "Repent (and obey the law) for the KINGDOM of God is at hand!" That was the gospel message that Jesus preached.

When asked "What shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" Jesus answered by quoting the Ten Commandments.

The hardest people to witness to are the "MORAL" people. Mormons are tough, as they follow God's Laws, and therefore feel more righteous. The easier people to witness to are the down-trodden, skid-row, broken down, as they know they are NOT moral.

But that isn't because the law is bad Pettrix! Nor does it mean that the law shouldn't be enforced! By this logic we shouldn't have laws against murder because if we have a bunch of non-murderers in the country it will be harder to convince people that they are evil and need a savior. Don't you see how that's backward? If we have laws against murder then that teaches people that murder is wrong and that life is valuable! (I only use murder because it is a really obviously evil thing to do. You could just as validly place theft in there or adultery or any other crime.)

Here is my challenge:
Show me ONE nation/government that has used a monarchy and God's laws & is/was a saved and moral nation? (Israel doesn't count)

Israel doesn't count! Why would I want to count it in the first place? Israel was such a miserable failure that God cut them off and that's with God direct involvement!

My challenge to you is to find a system that is better than Israel's was!

Here is another challenge:
Show me ONE verse (not taken out of context of course) that Paul tells Christians to get involved in politics in an attempt to change their current government?

This is an argument from silence and is therefore an invalid argument.

Do you use pews at your church, or perhaps incandescent light bulbs or a church building for that matter?

Paul never mentioned any of those things either. Besides, anyone who understands that politics is nothing but one's worldview applied to public policy as well as the proper role of government and the law wouldn't need Paul to say anything about it anyway.

Asking what Paul said is irrelevant anyway because Paul was not given the dispensation of human government and so, not surprisingly, said next to nothing about it. That dispensation was started way back with Noah when he got off the Ark.


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Pettrix]

Or perhaps just as good a question would be which forms of government does God appose in Scripture?

I believe God does not favor one over the other, the only government that God wants is with Him as the King. Everything else until then is fallen and flawed.

Please show me Scripture stating that OUR government, dispensationally considered, is supposed to be a monarchy. Once again, Israel CANNOT be used, as the monarchy was dependent upon having Christ as king. No Christ as King, NO proper monarchy. Also, what lineage does our "king" come from? Jewish, European, Middle Eastern?

Again, since no one has used God's interaction as a basis for their advocacy of a monarchy over other forms of government, this argument is moot.

The point I am trying to make is that Israel's monarchy governmental system was tied in hand-in-hand with God at the helm. Being that God is NOT at the helm today, the monarchy system is NULL & VOID.

Monarchy & Christ as King = Proper and only true government
Christ NOT King & Monarchy = Fallen and wasteful effort

Developing a monarchy using God's Law, the country would not be "God's chosen" country nor would it be "better". WHY?? The Bible shows no such example OUTSIDE of Israel. 2,000 years of human government since 1AD and NOT ONE, let me repeat that, NOT ONE government has been formed using that formula. To even believe that it can happen, is a pipe-dream at best, a waste of time and a diversion of Christian gospel preaching resources at the least.

You would need to read your Bible more thoroughly then, especially Galatians 3 where it talks about the purpose of the law.

Yikes! I don't think you realize what you are saying here Pettrix! You are effectively arguing against God's law! It wasn't the law that made Israel evil it was their rebellion against it! Remember what Jesus said to the Pharisees?...

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

I do not believe that the government is in the context of GALATIANS 3 nor Romans 5. Nowhere in the context is Paul talking about the government enacting moral laws to condemn the sinner. It is talking about GODS LAW and its role and purpose on the hearts of mankind. I just don't see a GOVERNMENTAL, monarchy, moral legal system being referenced here.

But that isn't because the law is bad Pettrix! Nor does it mean that the law shouldn't be enforced! By this logic we shouldn't have laws against murder because if we have a bunch of non-murderers in the country it will be harder to convince people that they are evil and need a savior. Don't you see how that's backward? If we have laws against murder then that teaches people that murder is wrong and that life is valuable! (I only use murder because it is a really obviously evil thing to do. You could just as validly place theft in there or adultery or any other crime.)

The laws should be enforced BUT Israel's MORAL LAW, which consisted of the Sabbath, not having intercourse with YOUR WIFE while she was on her period, etc., does not TRANSITION OVER to the government enforcing such laws today. Yes, murder, no questions, the government needs to enforce. Adultery, that is questionable, as there are some pastors who would be dead today if adultery was a capital crime.

Israel doesn't count! Why would I want to count it in the first place? Israel was such a miserable failure that God cut them off and that's with God direct involvement!

My challenge to you is to find a system that is better than Israel's was!

So, why do you believe that a monarchy system that would come into play today would be better than Israel?!? It wouldn't. Even in the BEST case scenario, it would be a horrible failure. Even with a "Christian" as king, it would be doomed, as sin would always enter in. Almost every "leader" has fallen or will fall. Skeletons fill the closets and they get exposed when in power.

This is an argument from silence and is therefore an invalid argument.
Do you use pews at your church, or perhaps incandescent light bulbs or a church building for that matter?
Paul never mentioned any of those things either. Besides, anyone who understands that politics is nothing but one's worldview applied to public policy as well as the proper role of government and the law wouldn't need Paul to say anything about it anyway.

That is being silly. Those examples are totally silly.

This is KEY:
Where I am going with this is that WE Christians, should not be wasting our time with trying to develop and enforce some monarchy here in the USA. First off, as Scripture shows, the monarchy was only going to work properly when JESUS CHRIST was the King, not Mr._________ (fill in the blank). Everything else besides Christ as King is a WASTE OF TIME and doomed to fail and fall. Why even waste our time and energy on trying to develop this system? Is that what we are called to do as Christians? My Bible says NO. It tells me to preach Christ to the lost and to grow in who I am IN CHRIST. Not to play politics.

Secondly, what lineage does the king come from? Israel's? Europe? Also, even if that king is a saved Christian, he can and eventually will sin and bring shame to himself and the county, and ultimately God. The OT is filled with this. So, in this make-believe utopia of a Christian monarch country, it would eventually lead to corruption and make a mockery out of God.

Here would be the playing out of this. Let's say the USA became a monarchy and instituted Israeli OT Law as part of its governmental constitution. A Christian king is appointed and he begins his rule. The whole world is watching as the USA totes that it is a Godly Christian government based on a monarchy. Shortly thereafter, the king has an affair. Who will put him to death? As adultery is a capital crime. The whole world will laugh and mock God and His Word as they see this "godly" system collapse upon itself.

Do you think God wants this monarchy to be instituted in the Age of Grace? The answer is:

NO!

Why not? Well, simply His Word tells us that our battle is:

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the world's rulers, of the darkness of this age, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

We are SPIRITUAL people and our battle is SPIRITUAL. We have ENOUGH to contend with, let alone, trying to battle politics and develop this system that will never work, beacuse God said it won't work. Why argue with God? He knows mans heart and He knows that whether monarchy or republic, it is ALL THE SAME FALLEN WICKEDNESS. Only His earthly governmental kingdom will work. WHY??? Because Jesus Christ will rule with 100% pure and righteous rule, NOT some man. Everything else until then, monarchy and all, is a WASTE OF TIME and only diverts from the gospel & our ministry to preach it.

 

[Pettrix]

"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." --

Ronald Reagan

Without taking away anything from Ronald Reagan, I would like to re-phrase that quote as;

"Politics whether a republic or monarchy is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."

 

[Nick M]

The way I understand it is that Israel was going to have its REAL King, Jesus Christ. Prophetically this was going to happen during the Millennial Kingdom. Until that point, Israel had a system setup that was flawed and the monarchy system was part of that flawed system. The true KING, as you have pointed out using Scripture, was to be JESUS CHRIST. So, if we (USA) had a monarchy system in play, it would be just as flawed as the current system, maybe more so depending on WHO we got as king. In essence, the monarchy was not the better governmental system, or at least that is what the Scriptures you have shown are pointing out.

Do you agree with the criminal code as written? Don't you think, since you claim to be a conservative, that the purpose of government is defense and infastructure? Knowing that, is there any reason to change the laws? Of course not, it will never be ok to increase taxes, socialize medicine, or commit murder. Never. So why have a legislature? As their only purpose is to write new laws? The laws should be on the books as is, and you don't need a legislature to enforce it.

And since you are Christian, you know that the masses are not righteous. You know that wide is the path to destruction. So you want to leave the appointment of our executive to the majority vote? Ask a black American what they think of majority rule. A cliche', I know. But true.

I will set a King over me. Not God will set a king over me. That's an important distinction. You think?

No. But if he said, you will not have king, but instead this, then that would certainly be important.

 

[Clete]

Pettrix,

I stopped reading your post when you questioned whether or not adultery should be a crime as if your opinion is relevant in such matters.

We have no common ground. Believe what you want, you're going to anyway. It is unfortunate but I'm just not interested in wasting my time discussing an issue of this complexity with someone who thinks that they are wiser than God.

The only point I would make, and I only make it because I know you post on other Grace Gospel oriented forums, is that the Gospel of Grace doesn't have anything to do with how the government should be run.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Pettrix]

Pettrix,

I stopped reading your post when you questioned whether or not adultery should be a crime as if your opinion is relevant in such matters.

We have no common ground. Believe what you want, you're going to anyway. It is unfortunate but I'm just not interested in wasting my time discussing an issue of this complexity with someone who thinks that they are wiser than God.

The only point I would make, and I only make it because I know you post on other Grace Gospel oriented forums, is that the Gospel of Grace doesn't have anything to do with how the government should be run.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I am NOT wiser than God. No man is. I have researched Bob Enyart's position on this government issue. While there are some points I agree with, there are others that I do not.

While adultery is a sin, having the government put people to death for violating it, is questionable. One strong case is that there are probably TOL members that might be dead today if that law was in effect.

OK, so we must agree to disagree. In the end, the fact is that this "dream government" will NEVER happen. So, why even waste time with it?? It only diverts from the message of Grace.

 

[Clete]

I am NOT wiser than God. No man is.

Then why do you argue against God's position on adultery?

I have researched Bob Enyart's position on this government issue. While there are some points I agree with, there are others that I do not.

Disagreement with Bob Enyart is one thing, disagreement with God and His word is quite another.

While adultery is a sin, having the government put people to death for violating it, is questionable.

No Pettrix, it isn't!

You claim not to be wiser than God and then make arguments against His wisdom! :doh:

One strong case is that there are probably TOL members that might be dead today if that law was in effect.

If there are pastors and TOL members who are guilty of adultery then that is primarily because it is no longer against the law! If it were a capital offense in this country as it should be, then, in all likelihood, none of those pastors or TOL members would have ever committed the crime to begin with, and if they had then they should be prosecuted and executed upon conviction.

What I want to know is how you thought that because certain people are guilty of a crime that it therefore shouldn't be against the law! That's ridiculous Pettrix! What if some members of TOL are guilty of child molestation or murder? Would you then advocate the legalization of those crimes as well?

OK, so we must agree to disagree. In the end, the fact is that this "dream government" will NEVER happen. So, why even waste time with it?? It only diverts from the message of Grace.

On the contrary, it augments the message of Grace!

No one, including Bob Enyart, actually expects for such a government to ever be set up this side of Christ's return. That isn't the point and you know it (or if you don't know it, you're really out to lunch, one or the other). The point is to teach right and wrong. The Bible repeatedly tells us to practice justice. How are we to do that if we don't even know what justice looks like? The whole point (or at the very least a primary point) of what Bob is doing has to do with teaching people what justice looks like. Christians who are so equipped are thus able to be salt and light to those around them. They are able to use the law (God's law) lawfully and thereby lead people to Christ. They are able to know which politicians would be worse than another and why. They will be able to give, not just an answer, but the correct answer when asked by their friends, family and co-workers about the issues of the day. They can answer with wisdom and confidence and make an argument which no one can answer.

But you, what can you do? Nothing! Worse than nothing! All you've got is your own personal opinion which any unbeliever will blow off without a second thought and then it will be you who is left without an answer because what are you going to say to convince someone that your own personal opinion is any better than theirs? NOTHING! That's what! And then all the while you'll be a Christian and these same unbelievers who blew you off on something you thought was trivial, like criminal justice, will never listen to you at all when you talk to them about Jesus Christ because that too will, in their eyes, only be just your own personal opinion. You undermine your own effectiveness as a Christian because you don't give attention to justice, which is at the very foundation of the gospel message.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Jefferson]

While adultery is a sin, having the government put people to death for violating it, is questionable.

Are you against the death penalty for murder?

 

[Nick M]

Do you agree with the criminal code as written? Don't you think, since you claim to be a conservative, that the purpose of government is defense and infastructure? Knowing that, is there any reason to change the laws? Of course not, it will never be ok to increase taxes, socialize medicine, or commit murder. Never. So why have a legislature? As their only purpose is to write new laws? The laws should be on the books as is, and you don't need a legislature to enforce it.

And since you are Christian, you know that the masses are not righteous. You know that wide is the path to destruction. So you want to leave the appointment of our executive to the majority vote? Ask a black American what they think of majority rule. A cliche', I know. But true.

drbrumley, this is actually directed at you. I was just going of the other posters thoughts for a moment. Please address why you think a legislature elected by the masses serves any purpose other than to expand government, and reclassify crime into something legal.

 

[Pettrix]

Are you against the death penalty for murder?

No.

There is a line between Israel's MORAL law, which was part of their "religious" law, versus the law portion which could be applied TODAY, in the Age of Grace.

For example, would these be in effect, if not, who decides what laws stay or go?:

Exo 31:14 You shall keep the Sabbath therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone that defiles it shall surely be put to death. For whoever does any work in it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Lev 19:20 And whoever lies with a woman with semen, and she is a slave-girl, betrothed to a husband and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her, there shall be an inquest. They shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

Lev 19:19 You shall keep My statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with different kinds. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed. And you shall not allow clothing mixed of linen and wool to come on you.

Exo 21:26 And if a man strike the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, so that it perishes, he shall let him go free on account of his eye.

Plus the dozens and dozens of other verses. Who and how does one draw the line between what laws stay or go?

You guys keep missing the point. ISRAEL AND ITS MORAL/GOVERNMENTAL LAWS WHEN HAND-IN-HAND WITH IT RELIGIOUS PRACTICE.

 

[Pettrix]

And then all the while you'll be a Christian and these same unbelievers who blew you off on something you thought was trivial, like criminal justice, will never listen to you at all when you talk to them about Jesus Christ because that too will, in their eyes, only be just your own personal opinion. You undermine your own effectiveness as a Christian because you don't give attention to justice, which is at the very foundation of the gospel message.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Since becoming a believer in 1993, I have not had ONE person I witnessed to, have the issue of government come-up as part of the salvation message and my presentation of the gospel message. If it did, my position would not cause them to stumble.

On the other note, I have had contact with people and they would question me about "Christian leaders" and why they push political agendas. IMHO, politics can and do divert from the message of Grace.

 

[Clete]

Since becoming a believer in 1993, I have not had ONE person I witnessed to, have the issue of government come-up as part of the salvation message and my presentation of the gospel message. If it did, my position would not cause them to stumble.

That wasn't what I said Pettrix! If you are so confident that your position is correct why resort to such dishonesty when responding to what I've said?

On the other note, I have had contact with people and they would question me about "Christian leaders" and why they push political agendas. IMHO, politics can and do divert from the message of Grace.

Why should I or anyone else care about your not so humble opinion?

And forget politics for the moment. What about justice? Do you think the subject of justice diverts from the message of Grace?

And I'm probably beating Jefferson to the punch here but on what basis do you support the death penalty for murder?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nick M]

No.

There is a line between Israel's MORAL law, which was part of their "religious" law, versus the law portion which could be applied TODAY, in the Age of Grace.

For example, would these be in effect, if not, who decides what laws stay or go?

Exo 31:14 You shall keep the Sabbath therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone that defiles it shall surely be put to death. For whoever does any work in it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

I think Jesus answered this more than once. What commandment is the greates? To love God with all your heart-which is what the first few commandments are. The second group was about how to treat other people. Jesus now covers the first group, don't you agree? But not the second.

Lev 19:20 And whoever lies with a woman with semen, and she is a slave-girl, betrothed to a husband and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her, there shall be an inquest. They shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

This obviously stays, as it pertains to how you interact with other people.

Lev 19:19 You shall keep My statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with different kinds. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed. And you shall not allow clothing mixed of linen and wool to come on you.

This is refrence to God again.

Exo 21:26 And if a man strike the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, so that it perishes, he shall let him go free on account of his eye.

Refers to interaction with other people.

Plus the dozens and dozens of other verses. Who and how does one draw the line between what laws stay or go?

Already covered. I think you are missing the point. Nowhere in the constitution does it say you have to be Christian, or you will be beaten/punished/whatever, in any way. Your salvation is between you and Jesus, obviously. But he still wants us to act civilized to other people. And yes, the law should be used to teach right from wrong. Even seculars like Rush Limbaugh know it and say it. The law is the great teacher.

 

[Pettrix]

Clete -

It is probably best to agree to disagree and leave this issue at that. I know where you stand as I know Enyart's position. As I stated before, we don't have an earthly king ruling, Israel's government program is completely different than ours. Whether monarchy or republic, I don't believe God is interested in that now, for His Word is silent about that in today's dispensation. Paul makes NO mention of monarchy governments being better, or for Christians in Ephesus to change their government. NONE of his epistles make mention of debating politics. NONE

If it was part of the Christians duties and obligation to fight political battles, don't you think God would make at least ONE mention of it?

God will establish His kingdom with Israel, that was His plan from day one, other nations may attempt to "copy" that blueprint but it will fail, as it is missing the main and important factor, GOD RULING, not man.

It was interesting. Thanks for talking about it.:thumb: Grace & Peace!

 

[Nick M]

Pettrix, will you address the questions listed? Since the doc has disappeared, or is busy.

Do you agree with the criminal code as written? Don't you think, since you claim to be a conservative, that the purpose of government is defense and infastructure? Knowing that, is there any reason to change the laws? Of course not, it will never be ok to increase taxes, socialize medicine, or commit murder. Never. So why have a legislature? As their only purpose is to write new laws? The laws should be on the books as is, and you don't need a legislature to enforce it.

 

[Nick M]

drbrumley, are you going to discect my point?

 

[drbrumley]

drbrumley, are you going to discect my point?

Sorry, some people have to work for a living! Don't you worry, I will respond. Not much to respond to actually being I agree with the jist of it.

 

[Nick M]

Sorry, some people have to work for a living! Don't you worry, I will respond. Not much to respond to actually being I agree with the jist of it.

If you agree with the jist, then that is all I wanted to know.

 

[drbrumley]

Provided God is the king, yes?

Jefferson?

 

[Jefferson]

Provided God is the king, yes?

No. Not in this dispensation.