Constitution of America by Enyart is right or wrong?

[drbrumley]

About a monarchy,

After having studied this issue for some time, And being a pro monarchist via the Constitution of America written by Bob Enyart, I must in good conscience thru the scriptures disavow myself from this teaching for the time being as I continue to study on this topic. I can not seem to get past this:

Christians, get out of politics

And the scripture :

"This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plough his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day." (I Samuel 8:7-18)

Now, this scripture is deadly in my view to the liberty God has granted us.

For Bob to say a monarchy is the proper way to go, does these verses hurt his argument? It seems to me that is the case.

I do believe this is an important topic that should be dealt with.

Thank you in advance for your replies.

 

[Lighthouse]

The problem was that the Israelites were calling out for a ruler, before God wanted them to have a ruler. He knew that if they got a king too early, they would face consequences they would not be happy with.

Even so, in the end, one ruler is better than majority rule.

 

[drbrumley]

Thanks for the reply LightHouse,

The problem was that the Israelites were calling out for a ruler, before God wanted them to have a ruler.

True. But who was the ruler to be.....? I submit it was Jesus Christ.

He knew that if they got a king too early, they would face consequences they would not be happy with.

As the 1 Sam passage clearly indicates. But isn't this indictative of any man who assumes to be a King?

Even so, in the end, one ruler is better than majority rule.

How about no rulers vs. any? Not claiming to be an anarchist, but Isreal was ruled by noone for awhile but God, and it seemed to work out.

 

[Lighthouse]

Thanks for the reply LightHouse,



True. But who was the ruler to be.....? I submit it was Jesus Christ.

So you don't believe that God had decided that they would get a ruler at some point in the near future?

As the 1 Sam passage clearly indicates. But isn't this indictative of any man who assumes to be a King?

No.

How about no rulers vs. any? Not claiming to be an anarchist, but Isreal was ruled by noone for awhile but God, and it seemed to work out.

How exactly would this work today? God would have to do signs and miracles, as He did with Israel.

 

[drbrumley]

So you don't believe that God had decided that they would get a ruler at some point in the near future?

Does Scripture indicate God setting up a king before the Lord Jesus? I don't know, which is why I am asking.

I asked "As the 1 Sam passage clearly indicates. But isn't this indictative of any man who assumes to be a King?"

No.

How is it not indicative?

How exactly would this work today?

I don't know.

God would have to do signs and miracles, as He did with Israel.

Why?

 

[drbrumley]

Does Scripture indicate God setting up a king before the Lord Jesus? I don't know, which is why I am asking.

Seems He did.

Deuteronomy 17:14 “When you come to the land which the LORD your God is giving you, and possess it and dwell in it, and say, ‘I will set a king over me like all the nations that are around me,’ [God knew that their impatience would coincide with His overall plan:] v. 15 “you shall surely set a king over you whom the LORD your God chooses; one from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not set a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. v. 16 “But he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, for the LORD has said to you, ‘You shall not return that way again.’ v. 17 “Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself. v. 18 “Also it shall be, when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write for himself a copy of this law in a book, from the one before the priests, the Levites. v. 19 “And it shall be with him, and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the LORD his God and be careful to observe all the words of this law and these statutes, v. 20 “that his heart may not be lifted above his brethren, that he may not turn aside from the commandment to the right hand or to the left, and that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he and his children in the midst of Israel.

 

[Jukia]

The problem was that the Israelites were calling out for a ruler, before God wanted them to have a ruler. He knew that if they got a king too early, they would face consequences they would not be happy with.

Even so, in the end, one ruler is better than majority rule.

Stalin? Mao? Saddam?

 

[elected4ever]

Even so, in the end, one ruler is better than majority rule.

This nation was never intended to be a democracy but a Constitutional Republic. A nation where the law was to be common to all men. Rulers and citizens alike. The minority was never to be subject to the tyranny of the majority. The Constitution supports limited government so as not to have the government to exercise its tyrannical power over the governed. This present government is a poor excuse for the government proposed by the founders.

 

[Delmar]

Stalin? Mao? Saddam?

I don't think anyone suggested that there is no such thing as an evil ruler.

 

[Delmar]

This present government is a poor excuse for the government proposed by the founders.

So what is the right thing to do about that?

 

[elected4ever]

So what is the right thing to do about that?

Follow the law. not what some political crony says the law is.

 

[Lighthouse]

Does Scripture indicate God setting up a king before the Lord Jesus? I don't know, which is why I am asking.

I asked "As the 1 Sam passage clearly indicates. But isn't this indictative of any man who assumes to be a King?"

How is it not indicative?

Not all kings are like that.

I don't know.

Why?

To prove He was there, ruling over us. And who would carry out the law? God would have to step in, as He did with Ananias and Sapphira.

Stalin? Mao? Saddam?

And? One evil ruler is better than mob of evil rulers, is it not?

 

[Delmar]

Follow the law. not what some political crony says the law is.

That will fix the system?

 

[elected4ever]

That will fix the system?

Like I have said before, it is a pipe dream.

 

[Turbo]

Deuteronomy 17

14 “When you come to the land which the LORD your God is giving you, and possess it and dwell in it, and say, ‘I will set a king over me like all the nations that are around me,’ 15 you shall surely set a king over you whom the LORD your God chooses; one from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not set a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. 16 But he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, for the LORD has said to you, ‘You shall not return that way again.’ 17 Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself.

18 “Also it shall be, when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write for himself a copy of this law in a book, from the one before the priests, the Levites. 19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the LORD his God and be careful to observe all the words of this law and these statutes, 20 that his heart may not be lifted above his brethren, that he may not turn aside from the commandment to the right hand or to the left, and that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he and his children in the midst of Israel.​

drbrumley, don't these verses make it clear that God did intend to place a king over Israel?


As for the call for Christians to get out of politics, the author is a self-proclaimed anarchist, and writes that "Anarchy literally means 'without rulers.'". Yet, as you know, God through Paul declared that He has put governing authorities, "rulers," in place to punish evildoers.

Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.​

What do you mean by suggesting that Christians should get out of politics?

Should men who have a Godly worldview surrender positions of authority, and let those who are in rebellion against God take their place?

If a ruler becomes a Christian, should he step down so that a heathen may take his place?

Should Christians cease from trying to influence those in power to do what is right and to be humble before Christ? Should Christians, for example, stop trying to persuade rulers that abortion should be recriminalized?

When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29:2​

If Christians get out of politics, there will be only groaning until Christ returns.

 

[drbrumley]

Deuteronomy 17

14 “When you come to the land which the LORD your God is giving you, and possess it and dwell in it, and say, ‘I will set a king over me like all the nations that are around me,’ 15 you shall surely set a king over you whom the LORD your God chooses; one from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not set a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. 16 But he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, for the LORD has said to you, ‘You shall not return that way again.’ 17 Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself.

18 “Also it shall be, when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write for himself a copy of this law in a book, from the one before the priests, the Levites. 19 And it shall be with him, and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the LORD his God and be careful to observe all the words of this law and these statutes, 20 that his heart may not be lifted above his brethren, that he may not turn aside from the commandment to the right hand or to the left, and that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he and his children in the midst of Israel.​

drbrumley, don't these verses make it clear that God did intend to place a king over Israel?

Yes, they do,as I cited that verse before you did, and made the same claim.

As for the call for Christians to get out of politics, the author is a self-proclaimed anarchist, and writes that "Anarchy literally means 'without rulers.'". Yet, as you know, God through Paul declared that He has put governing authorities, "rulers," in place to punish evildoers.

Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.​

What do you mean by suggesting that Christians should get out of politics?

I didn't say it, the author said it. But after re-reading the entire article to make sure I didn't miss anything, I can find the only place where he said that is in the title.

Should men who have a Godly worldview surrender positions of authority, and let those who are in rebellion against God take their place?

No, and the article doesn't say that either.

If a ruler becomes a Christian, should he step down so that a heathen may take his place?

No, and the article doesn't say that either.

Should Christians cease from trying to influence those in power to do what is right and to be humble before Christ? Should Christians, for example, stop trying to persuade rulers that abortion should be recriminalized?

When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29:2​

If Christians get out of politics, there will be only groaning until Christ returns.

No

 

[Varangian]

Even so, in the end, one ruler is better than majority rule.

Except that it's not. The list of "good kings" you'll find is a fairly sparse one. That isn't to say our modern forms of government have ushered in any sort of utopia, it's just that as Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

 

[drbrumley]

Turbo, first off , thanks for having a dialog with me on this topic.

Secondly, I'd like to ask since God did say a monarchy was useful to His purpose. Isn't this the case for Israel alone? I mean think about it. God saying

Dueteronomy 17:14 “When you (Israel) come to the land which the LORD your God is giving you (Israel), and possess it and dwell in it, and say, ‘I (Israel) will set a king over me (Israel) like all the nations that are around me (Israel),’ 15 you (Israel) shall surely set a king over you (Israel) whom the LORD your God chooses; one from among your brethren you (Israel) shall set as king over you (Israel); you may not set a foreigner over you, who is not your brother.​

So it seems from the reading of the text is God goes along with it cause He makes the plan (knowing their thoughts at the time) that Jesus Christ will come from this linage. Not that He approves or sets up a king for them. They did that themselves. Israel, let God choose the King for them, yes. But that is all. God didn't say in the Duet. passage that He was going make them a King for them.

 

[drbrumley]

bump

 

[Lighthouse]

Except that it's not. The list of "good kings" you'll find is a fairly sparse one. That isn't to say our modern forms of government have ushered in any sort of utopia, it's just that as Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Churchill was wrong. And Karl Marx knew what he was talking about, when he said that democracy leads to communism.

Democracy put Hitler in office.

It is easier to change the heart of one man than it is to change the hearts of nearly a whole nation.