You have experience of His mercy and that is unto all of creation. It's obvious you have no experience of His grace, because you honour Him with your words, but your heart* is far from Him.
heart...not the blood pump.
ECT Conditionalism
- Thread starter nikolai_42
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You have experience of His mercy and that is unto all of creation. It's obvious you have no experience of His grace, because you honour Him with your words, but your heart* is far from Him.
heart...not the blood pump.
csuguy
Well-known member
Here's one of the best analogies concerning conditional salvation vs "security"
I'll just leave this here...
Matthew 7:24-27 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
I'll just leave this here...
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
Paul was very clear there is only one who truly knows the secrets of our hearts... It is not you or I.
It's seems it wise to let the Judge do the judging.
Your words are not secret and the contents of your heart* are known by your words.
''O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh''.
*heart...not the blood pump.
and on this rock He built His church
''Is''....... building, His ecclesia.
does your bible use the word 'church'?
Interesting response. Rcc to protestant and protestant to ___________?
does your bible use the word 'church'?
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
"It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgement before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light now hidden in the darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart." 1 Corinthians 4:4-5
Why are you playing judge again? Because I warn people of danger of Satan's lies; because I encourage people to submit to Jesus; or because I tell the truth that God love all men the same and He gives them free will?
You have condemned yourself by your own words. I just point out what you're doing.
PS for man to have a free will would mean that man is independant, but man is dependant upon his Maker and Sustainer.
Does your 73 book have the word church?
My bible doesn't even have bible in it
Some of them do, but I know for an absolute fact that the term used by Messiah is transliterated into English as ecclesia.
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
We choose to be dependent, He allows us to do that. We are all slaves to something what will it be?
Your theology ignores you reap what you sow. It is heresy. Telling man they have no responsibility condemns them. We all see it everyday all around us... I wondered who authored that lie...
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I think the idea of the will is overhyped, myself. At least the way it seems to be understood in discussions like this. Not that it doesn't come into play...but consider the unbeliever. Is he willfully rejecting God every second of every day of his life? If you ask him, he will (probably in all sincerity) say no. But the will of man that most speak of in those terms is the conscious will - the will to eat eggs for breakfast or paint the wall a certain color (and then change your mind after it clashes with the furniture).
Is that the will that is free to accept or reject God?
I didn't say that man is without responsibility for his actions. In fact the scriptures teach that man is responsible for his intents, thoughts, words and deeds to which I say amen.
If you haven't read Luther's, Bondage of the Will, it's worth a glance or two.
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
Ah, an now we are getting somewhere... So a man idolizing anything most likely doesn't understand why He is idolizing whatever it is, and frankly for a large portion they really don't care why they are, it's just what they want to do. Do you really think they all are so nieve to think God may not want them to idolize anything. The point is the subconscious choice is no excuse.
Why does Peter say if a man knows the way of the truth and turns away from it he is worse of than at the beginning, if it is not possible?
Do you really think God's only way to puppeteer was to watch His beloved Son be tortured? That is ludicrous! The whole point was to win hearts not force them.
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
And my point is that the fact that we are saved by grace and Himself does not mean we don't have a choice, a responsibility established by God to embrace Him.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I'm not saying it's an excuse...but neither am I saying man doesn't care what they are. It goes beyond caring to even being aware of the disparity between man and God. The man rejecting God is doing so every minute of every day but doesn't even realize it. It isn't a matter of caring but even being aware of it. You tell the man on the street that his good works are so much useless trash in pleasing God and then he gets defensive. But he doesn't go around consciously trying to justify himself. It's natural. Innate. It's like the Psalm says...the wicked man goes estranged from the womb telling lies as soon as he is born. In other words, wickedness is like breathing - it's natural.
So a man idolizing something probably wouldn't even say he's idolizing it. And even if every now and then the thought comes that he may be idolizing it, there isn't any inclination to stop. To be honest, there is no option to stop. Some may have a strong enough will to try and stop, but what is missing is the element of faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. That idolater (or attempted reforming idolater) doesn't even have the option to submit to God. It just isn't on the list - and even if it were he wouldn't have the first inkling as to how to do so (nor the inclination). He's still trusting in himself.
The only way a man submits to God is by the Spirit of God. The Law was there for man to submit to and he proved rather convincingly that he can't. But men still try because the underlying nature (which is very closely associated with the will that I am calling "subconscious" here) is set a certain way and no amount of effort by that man will change that. Indeed, it is by that very will that man affects anything. Can it affect a change in itself? By what?
I don't say it isn't possible. And the one Peter is addressing is not the one who merely hears the truth and immediately rejects it. He's talking of one who has begun to actually learn firsthand of the goodness of God and then rejects it. He ends up worse than if he had never learned in a real inward way. But I would stop short of saying such a man was ever born again. I think that passage is pretty clear in saying he was never really fundamentally changed. The dog is still a dog.
What do you mean by "...win hearts..."? If who is saved and who is not is left up to man, then how can God know any would ever be saved? In fact, if God knows the hearts of all men, does He merely judge choices themselves or the root of those choices? And if we are dealing with underlying natures (which I believe we are per above) then how can arguments "win hearts" at that root level? I accept that many may find the sacrifice of Christ a noble thing ("Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends" has rather universal appeal), but does knowing that Christ died and rose actually change a man? This, I think, is why many "make decisions for Christ" and end up falling away - because there was no underlying change of nature. And that can only happen - as far as I can see - by the Sovereign move of God. A house divided against itself must fall, so the only way a man can choose against himself is if there is deep recognition of a perverseness in himself. And that is only by conviction of the Holy Spirit. So if a man "chooses Christ", is it the man's own corruption that does so?