ECT Comments from an ex-charismatic preacher

[musterion]

This is from an email I saved over 10 years ago. It was accompanied by a list of charismatic superstars who had fallen into gross immorality, got caught engaging in criminal activity, or who just up and died of diseases they'd gotten rich telling people God had to cure if they just had enough faith; that list would be a lot bigger now if I chose to update it, maybe someday.

Anyway, here's what he said when I asked about the basic reasons for his renunciation of pentecostalism/charismaticism.

I, too, have now embraced the biblical position of cessationism regarding the sign gifts. All I can say to those who question our stance is this:

1) The sign gifts had their role in the founding of the Church.

2) There is relatively little mentioned about them in the N.T. so they were not a benchmark of spirituality, nor deemed a central theme by the Holy Spirit, the Author of the Bible. If they were, why isn't more detail and space given to them.

3) The Early Church fathers wrote little about them as the gifts seemed to die out a little after 100-110 AD. The first real attempt to "restore" them is around 170 AD by the excommunicated heretic Montanus & his two self-proclaimed prophetesses. Then another long period of silence until around the early 1700's.

4) History shows that ALL who tried to restore these gifts were either heretics or fringe believers hanging onto the merest cusp of Christianity.

5) The Shakers [led by Mother Ann Lee] & Mormons [started by an Joseph Smith, an adulterous necromancer] were the first in America to speak in tongues, prophesy, etc ... this was DECADES before the Azusa Revival and Charles Fox Parham's neo-Montantist outbreak in 1901 via Agnes Ozman.

So off the top of my head I believe our position regarding the cessation of the gifts is two-pronged: a) the biblical record of the gifts (their purpose and temporary nature) b) the record of church history.

Also, one must judge historically the fruit of the charismatic renewal (neo Montanist/Penecostalism/Charismatic movement) which has NOT been a blessing to the Church at large.

 

[Totton Linnet]

This is from an email I saved over 10 years ago. It was accompanied by a list of charismatic superstars who had fallen into gross immorality, got caught engaging in criminal activity, or who just up and died of diseases they'd gotten rich telling people God had to cure if they just had enough faith; that list would be a lot bigger now if I chose to update it, maybe someday.

As ever you have to go anecdotal and ex-biblical, if I were of a mind I could find PLENTY of ex-MADianites, ex-Presbyterian,baptist, Methodist, brethrens, bible onliers etc, etc etc

Anyway, here's what he said when I asked about the basic reasons for his renunciation of pentecostalism/charismaticism.

No.1a there is no scripture for cessation 1.b gifts are not for signs when used in the assembly but for edification......boy the church needs edification.

No.2. what tiresome rubbish, from people who makes so much noise about the Body of Christ, the only description Paul gives of the body of Christ is in terms of gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture writing is a gift of the Holy Spirit, the ministry given to the church Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Teachers, Pastor totally call for the gifts of the Holy Ghost....even among MADianites.

THAT'S what WRONG with the church, too many people talking from their own mind.

No. 3. The early fathers [so called] WELL might they write that the gifts were dying out among them...THEY killed them off....backsliders, they were already worshipping the bread.

There were Pentecostal works prior to Asuza st and of a very deep nature...modern day Pentecostalism doe not spring exclusively from Asuza st. Although I find no fault with Asuza.

There have always been sham churches, America has provided the world with most of them. The counterfeit do not anul the genuine.

Healing does not depend upon the faith of the people but the faithfulness of the preacher, and the authenticity of the good news message preached

The BIBLE says "He bare our sins in His own body on the tree"
The BIBLE says "He hath borne our diseases and carried our infirmities" They are right there side by side

The church has NO RIGHT to only preach half the message.

Healing was hand in hand with Jesus, it was hand in hand with the apostles.

ONE HUNDRED PER CENT Paul's message

HOW DO I KNOW?

Because the assemblies he set up had exorcists and healers and workers of miracles in them.

SIGN gifts, what signs?, signs of what? signs to the Jews?

NO

Signs of the kingdom of God coming into the midst...the devil being cast out.

If you are too darned bone idle to stir yourself to seek the Lord for the fullness of the Holy Ghost...don't make a doctrine out of it.

 

[patrick jane]

It's obvious that the gifts ceased long ago

 

[Totton Linnet]

You need to visit [in your mind at least] a 14/13th century church to see what if any of Paul's gospel was being enjoyed....it was all in darkness.

What a transformation the 16th century brought, a completely different religion....YOU have stopped there, it came about because Luther and others started to read scripture with opened eyes.

 

[Totton Linnet]

It's obvious that the gifts ceased long ago

It is obvious that the church went through more than THOUSAND years of darkness in which the Spirit was quenched and the word hidden from the people.

 

[musterion]

Someone's heavily invested.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I know what I got.

 

[musterion]

Same thing this guy has.

He can still do it flawlessly. Used to teach unbelieving college kids how to do it as well as he can in 10 minutes flat.

He's been an out and out atheist for a few decades now, and was an unbeleiver when this was filmed in '72.

"After you've been saved," Marjoe continued, "the next step is what they call 'the infilling of the Holy Spirit.' They say to the new convert, 'Well, now you're saved, but you've got to get the Holy Ghost.' So you come back to get the tongues experience. Some people will get it the same night; others will go for weeks or years before they can speak in tongues. You hear it, you hear everyone at night talking in it in the church, and they're all saying, 'We love you and we hope you're going to get it by tonight.' Then one night you go down there and they all try to get you to get it, and you go into very much of a trance -- not quite a frenzy, but it is an incredible experience.

"During that moment the person forgets all about his problems. He is surrounded by people whom he trusts and they're all saying, 'We love you. It's okay. You're accepted in Christ. We're with you, let it go, relax.' And sooner or later, he starts to speak it out and go dut-dut-dut. Then everyone goes, 'That's it! You've got it!' and the button is pushed and he will in fact start to speak in tongues and just take off: dehan-dayelo-mosatay-leesaso ... and on and on."

Marjoe paused. Flo was dumbfounded by his demonstration, although he hadn't gone into the jerking, trance-like ecstasy that is commonly associated with the tongues movement. I'd seen the classic version in his movie, yet even in this restrained demonstration, Marjoe appeared to be triggering some internal releasing or babbling mechanism. I asked him how he brought it about.

"You'll never get with that attitude," he joked. Then he went on to explain the true nature of the experience. His perspective showed it to be a process that requires a great deal of effort to master.

"Tongues is something you learn," he emphasized. "It is a releasing that you teach yourself. You are told by your peers, the church, and the Bible -- if you accept it literally -- that the Holy Ghost spake in another tongue; you become convinced that it is the ultimate expression of the spirit flowing through you. The first time maybe you'll just go dut-dut-dut-dut, and that's about all that will get out. Then you'll hear other people and next night you may go dut-dut-dut-UM-dut-DEET-dut-dut, and it gets a little better. The next thing you know, it's ela-hando-satelay-eek-condele-mosandrey-aseya ... and it's a new language you've got down."

Except that, according to Marjoe, it's not a real language at all. Contrary to most religious understanding, speaking in tongues is by no means passive spiritual possession. It must be actively acquired and practiced. Although the "gift" of tongues is a product of human and not supernatural origin, Marjoe displayed tremendous respect for the experience as an expression of spirituality and fellowship."I really don't put it down," he said. "I never have. It's just that I analyze it and look at it from a very rational point of view. I don't see it as coming from God and say that at a certain point the Holy Spirit zaps you with a super whammy on the head and you've 'gone for tongues' and there is it. Tongues is a process that people build up to. Then, as you start to do something, just as when you practice the scales on the piano, you get better at it."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

This is from an email I saved over 10 years ago. It was accompanied by a list of charismatic superstars who had fallen into gross immorality, got caught engaging in criminal activity, or who just up and died of diseases they'd gotten rich telling people God had to cure if they just had enough faith; that list would be a lot bigger now if I chose to update it, maybe someday.

Anyway, here's what he said when I asked about the basic reasons for his renunciation of pentecostalism/charismaticism.

Good OP.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

It's obvious that the gifts ceased long ago

Indeed.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Same thing this guy has.

He can still do it flawlessly. Used to teach unbelieving college kids how to do it as well as he can in 10 minutes flat.

He's been an out and out atheist for a few decades now, and was an unbeleiver when this was filmed in '72.

Always un biblical...anecdotal.

There were false teachers in Paul's day. but Paul came in the power and DEMONSTRATION of the Holy Spirit.

In Paul's assembly God worked miracles when the people heard with faith as in Galations

 

[Totton Linnet]

The devil is quite happy to leave Christians alone if they are asleep...he only rassles up a storm when the truth is abroad.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

It's best if posters check out what was going on in the early 90s in the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, on You-Tube.

1) Drunk in the spirit.
2) Laughing in the spirit.
3) Slaying in the spirit.
4) Gold and jewels falling from the ceiling.
5) The supposed raising of the dead.
6) Supposed healings.
7) Midgets being healed.
8) Prosperity message.
9) Trickery.
10)Shaking wildly.
11)Copious amounts of people
falling to the floor simultaneously.
12) Reports of Adulterous and homosexual
activity among the preachers.

A myriad of phoniness, false reports, rich
supposed men of God bilking money out of
people. Look up this garbage on You-Tube,
you'll be shocked at what you see.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I like to be where folks are getting saved don't you?

 

[Totton Linnet]

It's best if posters check out what was going on in the early 90s in the Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, on You-Tube.

1) Drunk in the spirit.
2) Laughing in the spirit.
3) Slaying in the spirit.
4) Gold and jewels falling from the ceiling.
5) The supposed raising of the dead.
6) Supposed healings.
7) Midgets being healed.
8) Prosperity message.
9) Trickery.
10)Shaking wildly.
11)Copious amounts of people
falling to the floor simultaneously.
12) Reports of Adulterous and homosexual
activity among the preachers.

A myriad of phoniness, false reports, rich
supposed men of God bilking money out of
people. Look up this garbage on You-Tube,
you'll be shocked at what you see.

You need to turn off the telly and get the old bible dusted off

 

[musterion]

Always un biblical...anecdotal.

There were false teachers in Paul's day. but Paul came in the power and DEMONSTRATION of the Holy Spirit.

In Paul's assembly God worked miracles when the people heard with faith as in Galations

God does not lie and does not author confusion within the Body of Christ.

Let's make that our premise; I'm sure you'll agree to it.

Gortner's "tongues" sound IDENTICAL to every pentecostal's and charismatic's.

Gortner is an atheist. He was a money-grubbing fraud who did one of the first inside exposes of pentecostal fraud preachers. He's honest enough to admit it; most only admit it when caught, or lie some more to cover it up.

Gortner can STILL speak in fluent "tongues" that sound just like yours.

If Gortner's tongues are real then God is the author of confusion and a liar.

If Gortner's tongues are false then they're of Satan or, at best, of the flesh.

His sound just like yours do. Gibberish.

No one could possibly tell them apart because there's no actual language there. Gibberish cannot be distinguished from gibberish.

God is a liar (the premise is not true) or He is an idiot if He is now allowing the PERFECT duplication of what you believe is the "gift of tongues."

Therefore, your "tongues" are false and you are gravely confused.

God did not author your false "tongues" nor your confusion.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You need to turn off the telly and get the old bible dusted off

I do. The Charismatic/Pentecostal movement isn't of God.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Is the Holy Spirit God?

 

[Totton Linnet]

God does not lie and does not author confusion within the Body of Christ.

Let's make that our premise; I'm sure you'll agree to it.

Gortner's "tongues" sound IDENTICAL to every pentecostal's and charismatic's.

Gortner is an atheist. He was a money-grubbing fraud who did one of the first inside exposes of pentecostal fraud preachers. He's honest enough to admit it; most only admit it when caught, or lie some more to cover it up.

Gortner can STILL speak in fluent "tongues" that sound just like yours.

If Gortner's tongues are real then God is the author of confusion and a liar.

If Gortner's tongues are false then they're of Satan or, at best, of the flesh.

His sound just like yours do. Gibberish.

No one could possibly tell them apart because there's no actual language there. Gibberish cannot be distinguished from gibberish.

God is a liar (the premise is not true) or He is an idiot if He is now allowing the PERFECT duplication of what you believe is the "gift of tongues."

Therefore, your "tongues" are false and you are gravely confused.

God did not author your false "tongues" nor your confusion.

So when Paul taught tongues they were the same as fake tongues?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I'll tell you one thing, the "movement" is a gigantic money making machine.