Colossians is a pervert.

[elohiym]

Look up the uses of 'obedience' in the NT. Loving obedience is not a legalism.

Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." Since you acknowledge to wilfully violating His commandments, you must not love Jesus. Where is the example of your obedience?

You cannot seek righteousness by the works of the law, godrulz. That is what "loving obedience" entails.

When you repent, you will receive the Holy Spirit, and you will no longer fufill the lusts of the flesh if you walk in that spirit. Trust in the power of God.

If you are not obeying, you are living contrary to the teachings of Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, John, etc. This puts you in a state of disobedience. Do you routinely murder, commit adultery, steal, hate your parents, lust, explode in anger, etc?

God wrote the perfect law of liberty in our hearts, and nailed the ordinances that were against us to the cross. Transgression is not an option for believers. To have the law written in your mind and heart, means it is your spiritual nature to fulfill the law. If you believe that God wrote his law in your heart, then walk in that faith and know that you cannot transgress that law by the power of God.

Your flesh should be dead, and dead to the law, if it was crucified with Jesus. So your mind serves the law of God (faith) while you flesh serves the law of sin (by being dead to the law). It is through the law that we are dead to the law, so if you are not dead to the law, then you are transgressing the law.

You will never see yourself as righteous in Christ if you are constantly looking at your flesh to show evidence of righteousness as proof. That's a trap. Your flesh will never appear righteous. That is why God removed the Mosaic covenant, with its rituals and ceremonies. You get to be human without guilt!

At the same time, if God renews your heart, you will no longer commit adultery, murder, etc., because it is contrary to new creation you have become. The new creation has no motivation to murder, as it is contrary to its nature.

Have you not read the NT? Have you not read the teachings of Jesus? Have you not read Paul's many exhortations?

Apparently, I have studied them more extensively than you.

Do you walk in the light as He is in the light?

Yes. Do you? How can you while you continue to sin?

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Galations 2:17,18​

I simply do not get your impractical views that attempt to sound superspiritual but are divorced from basic NT theology (and OT for that matter).

Jesus said, "whoever sins is a servant of sin." That is basic NT theology. YOU are a servant of sin because you admit to still wilfully sinning from time-to-time. Therefore, you are in bondage. There is nothing superspiritual or divorced from NT theology about that.

 

[godrulz]

I John talks about believers who sin (as does Corinthians). It says you are a liar if you say you have no sin. Are you teaching sinless perfection? Is every thought, word, deed, motive sinless like Jesus on earth? Is it impossible for a Christian to commit adultery and sin?

I concur that there is no reason for a believer to sin, nor is it necessary to do so. Apparently I am just more honest than you. I do not willfully sin every day. There is provision for a victorious Christian life.

Are you saying that every Christian in the world never sins from the minute they are saved? This does not square with reality nor Scripture. There is a difference between the ideal goal of our faith and the reality we face at times. This is not an excuse.

An ongoing lifestyle of bondage to sin by an unbeliever makes them a slave to sin. A momentary lapse that is quickly repented of with renewed obedience is not in the same bondage category. Your wooden literalisms are sloppy exegesis that do not stand grammatical and contextual scrutiny. Quit proof texting and look at the whole of Scripture.

 

[Sozo]

I John talks about believers who sin (as does Corinthians). It says you are a liar if you say you have no sin. Are you teaching sinless perfection? Is every thought, word, deed, motive sinless like Jesus on earth? Is it impossible for a Christian to commit adultery and sin?

I concur that there is no reason for a believer to sin, nor is it necessary to do so. Apparently I am just more honest than you. I do not willfully sin every day. There is provision for a victorious Christian life.

Are you saying that every Christian in the world never sins from the minute they are saved? This does not square with reality nor Scripture. There is a difference between the ideal goal of our faith and the reality we face at times. This is not an excuse.

An ongoing lifestyle of bondage to sin by an unbeliever makes them a slave to sin. A momentary lapse that is quickly repented of with renewed obedience is not in the same bondage category. Your wooden literalisms are sloppy exegesis that do not stand grammatical and contextual scrutiny. Quit proof texting and look at the whole of Scripture.

I should have titled this thread...

godrulz is a pervert!

You are preaching a license to sin.

When you claim that you can sin, and that there is no penalty for your sin, then you are claiming that you have a license to sin.

Your system of quick repentance is blasphemy to of the shed blood of Jesus. His sacrifice was a better sacrifice than the blood of bulls and goats. Even those sacrifices lasted a year! But, you have watered down the blood of Jesus to worse than that of bulls and goats, and make His blood insufficient to take away your sin at all! You are your own savior! You are your own redeemer! You are the one who makes yourself righteous, by claiming that you are right if you do right! A person who says that they are a Christian and makes the claims that you do, is a liar!

 

[godrulz]

I am not preaching a license to sin. If you could read, I said we should not sin and that it is not necessary to sin. Your view of sinless perfectionism is heretical and does not account for believers who do sin (adultery, for example should not be hard to understand).

I John 1:9 is provision for a believer's sin. Evangelists use it for the lost, but that is not the context. Jesus rebuked the churches in Rev. 2; 3. He called on believers to repent and obey. Your view is the one that says you can sin since you are not under the law.

If a believer sins in their anger (Eph.), then Paul would expect them to deal with it before the sun goes down. Go argue with Paul about quick repentance.

If I say something wrong and sincerly believe it is true, how does that make me a liar? A liar misrepresents what they know to be true. You could call me stupid or ignorant, but save liar for those who deceive while knowing the truth.

 

[Lighthouse]

I am not preaching a license to sin. If you could read, I said we should not sin and that it is not necessary to sin. Your view of sinless perfectionism is heretical and does not account for believers who do sin (adultery, for example should not be hard to understand).

I John 1:9 is provision for a believer's sin. Evangelists use it for the lost, but that is not the context. Jesus rebuked the churches in Rev. 2; 3. He called on believers to repent and obey. Your view is the one that says you can sin since you are not under the law.

If a believer sins in their anger (Eph.), then Paul would expect them to deal with it before the sun goes down. Go argue with Paul about quick repentance.

If I say something wrong and sincerly believe it is true, how does that make me a liar? A liar misrepresents what they know to be true. You could call me stupid or ignorant, but save liar for those who deceive while knowing the truth.

1 John 1:9, in context, is to unbelievers.

 

[elohiym]

I am not preaching a license to sin.

There are at least two that bear witness that your are preaching a license to sin.

If you could read, I said we should not sin and that it is not necessary to sin.

Then why do you continue to sin, godrulz?

Your view of sinless perfectionism is heretical and does not account for believers who do sin (adultery, for example should not be hard to understand).

Believers do not commit adultery. Anyone that commits adultery is an adulterer, and should be put to death. Some Christians were adulterers, but they were washed and regenerated. They no longer do that.

King David is great example of how after he commited murder and adultery, he repented having received the mercy of God, and he received a new heart and spirit. He was born again. From that point forward the record shows that David did not sin again.

You need to remember that your flesh was crucified with Jesus. That is your dead old man--the sinner. He is dead to the law. The law caused him to die. Now, being dead, the law no longer has an effect on him. No law. No transgression. No sin.

If you were crucified with Christ, then you were resurrected with him, and have become a new creation. That new creation does not sin, and by nature it cannot sin, because it has the spirit of God.

Walk according to the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, godrulz.

 

[godrulz]

1 John 1:9, in context, is to unbelievers.

Their are proximal verses that are about unbelievers, but this phrase is about believers. Your view is held because it supports your preconceived concepts about believers being unable to sin.

cf. many use Rev. 3:20 evangelistically, but it is talking about believers/churches.

 

[godrulz]

There are at least two that bear witness that your are preaching a license to sin.

Then why do you continue to sin, godrulz?

Believers do not commit adultery. Anyone that commits adultery is an adulterer, and should be put to death. Some Christians were adulterers, but they were washed and regenerated. They no longer do that.

King David is great example of how after he commited murder and adultery, he repented having received the mercy of God, and he received a new heart and spirit. He was born again. From that point forward the record shows that David did not sin again.

You need to remember that your flesh was crucified with Jesus. That is your dead old man--the sinner. He is dead to the law. The law caused him to die. Now, being dead, the law no longer has an effect on him. No law. No transgression. No sin.

If you were crucified with Christ, then you were resurrected with him, and have become a new creation. That new creation does not sin, and by nature it cannot sin, because it has the spirit of God.

Walk according to the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, godrulz.

There have been prominent Christian leaders (McDonald and others) who have publicly confessed to affairs. They were restored after godly repentance. Why could a believer not sleep with their co-worker if they can have sex with their wife? We are not Pinnochio on a puppet string. You cannot possibly defend a concept that a true Christian cannot physically have sex before marriage (Christian teens get pregnant). The Corinthian 'saints' were rebuked for immorality by Paul. He did not spout your nonsense, but called them to return to a walk in the spirit vs flesh. Peter denied Christ and was restored. Did he cease being a follower of Christ or believer for a few hours? David was a worshipper of God before and after his great sins. You cannot make a case that he was godless before the sin and converted after the sin. God sent a prophet to rebuke him, not convert him for the first time.

 

[immivik]

ignore slander

ignore slander

godrulz,
you are wasting your energy with this topic since those you are arguing with only like those who agree with them. they dont listen to reason. :bang:
on the other hand,I have had this same argument with these same people in another thread called; Do Christians Sin? which by the way is the reason this thread was innitiated in order to slander colossians when they didnt like what he was saying in that thread.
Just like a ravenous wolf ,that sneaks in the back way. :sheep: :devil:

 

[Sozo]

I am not preaching a license to sin. If you could read, I said we should not sin and that it is not necessary to sin.

According to Romans 6, are you a slave of sin, or a slave of righteousness?

Your view of sinless perfectionism is heretical and does not account for believers who do sin (adultery, for example should not be hard to understand).

It is not my view, you are deceived.

"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified"

I John 1:9 is provision for a believer's sin. Evangelists use it for the lost, but that is not the context.

Verse 1

"What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of Life"

John confirms that Jesus was "from the beginning" and they were witnessess to his appearing. They heard Him, they saw Him, and they touched Him. He was very real, and not an illusion.

Verse 2

"...and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"

The eternal life of God the Father was evident and proved to John through Christ, and John further proclaims this to those whom he is writing that they (those with John) were witnessess to this fact.

Verse 3

"...what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, that you also may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ."

Again, John reiterates the importance that they were indeed witnessess and that he now is proclaiming this life to them that they may have fellowship with John, for John's fellowship is "indeed" with the Father and His Son Jesus.

Verse 4

"And these things we write, so that our joy may be made complete."

Why was John's joy not complete? Was John writing to ask for their approval of fellowship? Or was he writing to present them the truth of Christ, that they also could have fellowship with John? John's "joy" would be complete if they accepted the message of life eternal that God "has promised to those who love Him"

John is writing this letter to this church to confirm with them that they have come to know Christ, because there were many false teachers who had crept into the church. Some who had proclaimed that Jesus had not come in the flesh. (1 John 4:2) John needs to make sure that this church he is writing to knows that John is someone who actually walked with, spoke with, and touched Jesus. He is a legitimate authority who has fellowship with the Father through Jesus Christ, John needs to establish that if they (those who are reading his letter) are going to claim to have fellowship with Jesus and with each other, then John needs to make sure that they understand some of the fundementals of the faith. Obviously, there had to have been some concern on John's part about some of the teaching that had crept in, or he would not have brought up the things that he is now proclaiming.

Verse 5

"And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

Here John affirms a message that He had indeed heard from Jesus himself, that is, that "God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all". There are many passages that talk about "light" & "darkness" in the NT, and every reference of "light"deals with either the truth of God, or being saved, that is possessing the very life of God. The very thing that John is proclaiming.

For men to "let their light shine", they must possess that light, whether it be the truth, or God's life. As this same John proclaims in his writing of the gospel... "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men" and as Jesus stated... "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." Jesus clearly explains that to have the life, is to have the light, and they shall not walk in darkness. And this should remove all doubt... Jesus also stated "I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness."

When Jesus commisioned Paul, He again confirms the message of being in the light as saved... "...they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me."

And as Paul proclaims... "Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?"

John had said that "In God there is no darkness at all", and when we are "in Christ", there is also "no darkness" in us.

Again, Paul confirms... "...for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light." How do we walk as "children of light"? By being who we are!

Peter also confirms..."who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light"

There can be no question that if you are "in the light", you are saved! If you are "in darkness", you are lost and without the life of God.

Verse 6

"If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;"

This is not difficult to understand. If you are not saved (in darkness), then you are not in fellowship with God, and if you say you are, well then you're lying. And we know that "fellowship", literally means to be in communion with God.

Verse 7

"...but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Here is the crux of John's message, and it is clear that to be in fellowship with God that you are "in the light" as He is "in the light" and the result has been that you are cleansed of all sin. There is no way that you can be "in sin" and "in Christ" at the same time. There is no way that you can be "in darkness" and "in the light" at the same time. As John further explains later... "And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin." . Those who teach that you can move in & out of fellowship, would also have to believe that you move in & out of light, in & out of life, or in & out of Christ! That is a doctrine of demons, and one that paralyzes belivers into a fear of having any hope that God loves them and that He sustains or keeps them.

Verse 8

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

This verse has to do with those who claim to have never sinned, or believed that they did not have a sin nature. If that is what they are believeing and/or teaching, then they are decieved, they are not "in the light", they are not "in fellowship", and they are not "in Christ"! John even goes so far as to include himself, that if he were making those claims, it would also apply to him. Also, this verse has nothing to do with a process of salvation as some teach, if it does then there is a clear contradiction, because verse 7 states that Jesus has cleansed us from all sin! Verse 8 is therefore there to affirm that we have in fact, had sin, a sin nature, and that it is Christ that took it away! Either we have been cleansed, or we haven't. You cannot have it both ways.

Verse 9

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Based on what we have already discussed, this should put the false perceptions of this verse to rest. This verse just reaffirms verse 7. To be justified by faith we must admit that we do indeed have sin (a sin nature), and we have in fact sinned. Therefore, John proclaims that it is indeed Jesus who is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If Jesus has cleansed you, you can not make yourself uncleansed! You were unrighteous because you were "in Adam", "in darkness", & "in the flesh". You had no ability to make yourself righteous apart from the cross. But, having now come to Christ, you are "in Christ", "in the light", "in fellowship", & "in the Spirit"! God has placed you there, and it had nothing to do with your works. You have been made righteous by the blood of Christ! How then do you suppose after having been made righteous, that you could make yourself unrighteous? You could never make yourself unrighteous to begin with. The fact is you can only be cleansed of sin once! You can only be cleansed of unrighteousness once! "For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness" Jesus is not going to be crucified everytime you "think" you need forgiveness.

Verse 10

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

Again, John affirms that those who claim that they never sinned are calling God a liar, and Jesus is not in them!

 

[godrulz]

godrulz,
you are wasting your energy with this topic since those you are arguing with only like those who agree with them. they dont listen to reason. :bang:
on the other hand,I have had this same argument with these same people in another thread called; Do Christians Sin? which by the way is the reason this thread was innitiated in order to slander colossians when they didnt like what he was saying in that thread.
Just like a ravenous wolf ,that sneaks in the back way. :sheep: :devil:

I am surprised the moderators allow threads that single out individuals. This is not speaking truth in love. It is argumentum ad hominem. We should be interacting with concepts and ideas from a biblical point of view (we are all trying to understand Scripture) in a more edifying way. Personal attacks without building a positive case or refuting a weak one undermines our witness, love, unity, and credibility. There is a right way and wrong way for believers to disagree with each other and unbelievers. In marriage, much of what happens here would be called 'unfair fighting'.

 

[elohiym]

There have been prominent Christian leaders (McDonald and others) who have publicly confessed to affairs. They were restored after godly repentance. Why could a believer not sleep with their co-worker if they can have sex with their wife? We are not Pinnochio on a puppet string.

You are ignorant of the biblical and historical understanding of repentance. Justin Martyr wrote:

These have conquered me--the divinity of the instruction, and the power of the Word: for as a skilled serpent-charmer lures the terrible reptile from his den and causes it to flee, so the Word drives the fearful passions of our sensual nature from the very recesses of the soul; first driving forth lust, through which every ill is begotten--hatreds, strife, envy, emulations, anger, and such like. Lust being once banished, the soul becomes calm and serene. And being set free from the ills in which it was sunk up to the neck, it returns to Him who made it. For it is fit that it be restored to that state whence it departed, whence every soul was or is.​

Someone who is born again will not commit adultery.

Do you want to see what other early chruch writers say about this subject? Who will you believe, if you don't want to accept God's Word directly.

You cannot possibly defend a concept that a true Christian cannot physically have sex before marriage (Christian teens get pregnant).

Here is what Justin Martyr wrote on that subject:

CHAPTER XV -- WHAT CHRIST HIMSELF TAUGHT.

Concerning chastity, He uttered such sentiments as these: "Whosoever looketh upon a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart before God." And, "If thy right eye offend thee, cut it out; for it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of heaven with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into everlasting fire." And, "Whosoever shall many her that is divorced from another husband, committeth adultery." And, "There are some who have been made eunuchs of men, and some who were born eunuchs, and some who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake; but all cannot receive this saying." So that all who, by human law, are twice married, are in the eye of our Master sinners, and those who look upon a woman to lust after her. For not only he who in act commits adultery is rejected by Him, but also he who desires to commit adultery: since not only our works, but also our thoughts, are open before God. And many, both men and women, who have been Christ's disciples from childhood, remain pure at the age of sixty or seventy years; and I boast that I could produce such from every race of men.​

Do you disagree with Justin Martyr? Didn't he know that early church better that you?

The Corinthian 'saints' were rebuked for immorality by Paul. He did not spout your nonsense...

He told them that they were still carnal (1 Cor 3:3), and that is what I am telling you, that YOU are still carnal, not yet born again.

Peter denied Christ and was restored. Did he cease being a follower of Christ or believer for a few hours?

Jesus said that Peter was not converted at that time (Lk 22:32), and that is what I am telling you, that YOU are not converted, still in bondage to sin.

David was a worshipper of God before and after his great sins. You cannot make a case that he was godless before the sin and converted after the sin. God sent a prophet to rebuke him, not convert him for the first time.

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

David was not born of God when he was an adulterer and murderer, by his own admission. So your point is moot.

Psalms 51:1 <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.>> Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Read the rest of the Psalm where David prays for a clean heart and a renewed spirit.


God's word states, "Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." So don't compare yourself to David; he stopped sinning after God created a clean heart in him, and renewed a right spirit in him.

 

[Lighthouse]

There have been prominent Christian leaders (McDonald and others) who have publicly confessed to affairs. They were restored after godly repentance. Why could a believer not sleep with their co-worker if they can have sex with their wife? We are not Pinnochio on a puppet string. You cannot possibly defend a concept that a true Christian cannot physically have sex before marriage (Christian teens get pregnant). The Corinthian 'saints' were rebuked for immorality by Paul. He did not spout your nonsense, but called them to return to a walk in the spirit vs flesh. Peter denied Christ and was restored. Did he cease being a follower of Christ or believer for a few hours? David was a worshipper of God before and after his great sins. You cannot make a case that he was godless before the sin and converted after the sin. God sent a prophet to rebuke him, not convert him for the first time.

Your definition of sin is wrong.

Sozo never said a Christian could not commit adultery.

 

[Lighthouse]

I am surprised the moderators allow threads that single out individuals. This is not speaking truth in love. It is argumentum ad hominem. We should be interacting with concepts and ideas from a biblical point of view (we are all trying to understand Scripture) in a more edifying way. Personal attacks without building a positive case or refuting a weak one undermines our witness, love, unity, and credibility. There is a right way and wrong way for believers to disagree with each other and unbelievers. In marriage, much of what happens here would be called 'unfair fighting'.

This thread was started to refute a weak case.

 

[godrulz]

Your definition of sin is wrong.

Sozo never said a Christian could not commit adultery.

Now we are talking. The Bible and God and Jesus call adultery sin. Perhaps your definition of sin needs tweaking if you are going to call the same act by a believer something different than the same act by an unbeliever. Quit changing the unchanging moral law of God. If marital faithfulness is not a sin, then marital unfaithfulness (adultery) is a sin. Do not give it a euphemism if God does not.

One of the keys to revival and spiritual awakening is for believer and unbeliever to have a revelation of the holiness of God and a conviction of sin in their lives. Confession implies to say the same thing as God. Repentance involves a change of mind. Obedience and surrender is the only wise, loving course to glorify God and for our good. Sin separates and destroys. Judgment begins with the house of God.

 

[Lighthouse]

Now we are talking. The Bible and God and Jesus call adultery sin. Perhaps your definition of sin needs tweaking if you are going to call the same act by a believer something different than the same act by an unbeliever. Quit changing the unchanging moral law of God. If marital faithfulness is not a sin, then marital unfaithfulness (adultery) is a sin. Do not give it a euphemism if God does not.

One of the keys to revival and spiritual awakening is for believer and unbeliever to have a revelation of the holiness of God and a conviction of sin in their lives. Confession implies to say the same thing as God. Repentance involves a change of mind. Obedience and surrender is the only wise, loving course to glorify God and for our good. Sin separates and destroys. Judgment begins with the house of God.

If sin seperates, does that mean anytime a Christian lies, or lusts, they are seperated from God, until they confess?

 

[godrulz]

If sin seperates, does that mean anytime a Christian lies, or lusts, they are seperated from God, until they confess?

As in marriage, intimacy is affected without severing the relationship. Persistent unbelief and rejection of Christ and His finished work is what would eternally separate any human from fellowship with God in eternity.

 

[Sozo]

Persistent unbelief and rejection of Christ and His finished work is what would eternally separate any human from fellowship with God in eternity.

Then you just condemned yourself.

 

[elohiym]

Persistent unbelief and rejection of Christ and His finished work is what would eternally separate any human from fellowship with God in eternity.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Matthew 12:37

 

[Lighthouse]

godrulz-
Is sin counted against one who is in Christ?