ECT Classical Vs. Biblical Original Sin - Order of Judgment and Consequences (Part 2)

[Nang]

And this is what we're supposed to swallow? :jawdrop:

"Innocent probation" "Covenant Law".....if Nang's brush was any broader, we'd be forced to open another thread just to hold her personal musings.

Not my "brush" . . .

Whether you "swallow" the truths of Holy Scripture or not, or learn from theological terms summarizing those Holy Scriptures or not, is your problem, not mine. Perhaps you have not been blessed with Godly teachers, such as my husband and I have known, over the years. Could be you have never been educated in, nor exposed to historical theology, at all.

???

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Do you not think that we will be with the LORD in heaven? Here is what Paul said:

"For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" (Phil.1:23).​

I'm 99&44/100% with yuh.

Captain Crunch, milk and honey.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Have lost you here . . please provide the full scriptural reference for this post-fall
declaration, and explain what it has to do with Genesis 2:23-24.

(BTW, I strongly disagree that Adam was ignorant before he sinned. Ignorance is the result of sin, not a cause of sin IMO.)

After you supply scripture that says Adam fell.

 

[glorydaz]

Adam simply did not believe anything God told him.

Painting with that broad brush again I see. :chuckle:

 

[glorydaz]

Not my "brush" . . .

Whether you "swallow" the truths of Holy Scripture or not, or learn from theological terms summarizing those Holy Scriptures or not, is your problem, not mine. Perhaps you have not been blessed with Godly teachers, such as my husband and I have known, over the years. Could be you have never been educated in, nor exposed to historical theology, at all.

???

Nang, I know this comes as a shock to you, but you are not the holder of all truth. Your "education" has turned you into the puffed-up fool we see today. You'd do well to hold that tongue of yours until you can actually speak in agreement with the verses you cite. So far, you earn an "F". Back to school you go.

 

[intojoy]

Nang, I know this comes as a shock to you, but you are not the holder of all truth. Your "education" has turned you into the puffed-up fool we see today. You'd do well to hold that tongue of yours until you can actually speak in agreement with the verses you cite. So far, you earn an "F". Back to school you go.

Bang is a good thinker with a false premise. It's called replacement theology.


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[Nang]

After you supply scripture that says Adam fell.

Since you ask in the spirit of Jerry, I will give answer accordingly . . .

Romans 5:12

Take it or leave it!

 

[Nang]

Nang, I know this comes as a shock to you, but you are not the holder of all truth.

Truth needs no holder, but the grace of God has provided human witnesses to HIS TRUTH that are solely meant to bring glory to His name.

 

[glorydaz]

Truth needs no holder, but the grace of God has provided human witnesses to HIS TRUTH that are solely meant to bring glory to His name.

Next witness, please. You're dismissed.

 

[intojoy]

Was there really physical fruit on the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
Was it actually the fruit itself that contained a property that would open ones eyes to good and evil?

I've heard folks say that there was nothing special about the fruit itself (ie. it was just some regular fruit but had no such property), and that it was only the disobedience itself that was the problem, not the fruit.

If there was not actually something special about the fruit, then why block access to it?

If some other creature besides man ate the fruit, would their eyes have been opened to good and evil?

And what has, or is going to happen to that tree?
Is it an eternal (as in no ending) tree, or is it to be plucked up, axed down, burned up?

Don't worry about it


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[1Mind1Spirit]

Since you ask in the spirit of Jerry, I will give answer accordingly . . .

Romans 5:12

Take it or leave it!

You sayin' I'm a glory stealer? :crackup:

 

[Lon]

The teaching that the sons of Adam are "born sinless" is a lie. Any Christian should react negatively to any such kind of unbiblical falsehood.

Agree. Glory is distancing from both Pelagian and born sinless doctrine. Jerry? I'm not sure, but he looks Pelagian to me. EE. has yet to fully disclose his position, but it talking that out, and I'll listen for a bit.

The teaching that Adam was "born sinless" in a temporal state of innocence is biblically accurate, and Christians should be able to discuss his original condition, without denying the fallen condition of humankind.

I agree.

 

[Lon]

He's saying, "Don't tell them they have a sin nature, and are too depraved to know God.

Well, let's talk about total depravity for a moment: One of the passages Jerry passed over Romans 3:9-13 says:
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. all under sin
10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one; Not only is everyone under sin, everyone 'is not righteous.' Paul is emphatic: "None."
11 There is none who understands; The Apostle Paul says part of our condition, from birth, under sin, is that we are flesh and do not understand the things of God. "The man without the Spirit cannot understand the things of God, because they are Spiritually discerned." As far as this, I believe Jerry is necessarily wrong. We don't Spiritually die, we have not been born again. The Lord Jesus Christ said all men must be born of Spirit. Where does that leave children? As far as I discern "Let (my) Little Children come unto me." John 14:6 He is the Only Way.
There is none who seeks after God. Seems against your assertion to me. We have to be talking about scriptures in here and must consider them all.
12 They have all turned aside; There is the inevitable. There is no 'possibility' as far as I understand scripture. I realize it doesn't say that, but we need to discuss what is driving the averse that a child needs to be born alive (Jerry's view). Jesus said 'must' be born again.
They have together become unprofitable; When did it happen that they 'became?'
There is none who does good, no, not one.” Paul's argument has been that we are born 'under' sin.
13 “Their throat is an open tomb; Already. It is 'all' of our condition.
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;

The doctrine of Total Depravity is simply this: "We must be born-again." All of us. The Lord Jesus Christ said: "That which is born of flesh is 'flesh.' We are 'born' that way. What we are not born as, is Spirit. "That which is born of Spirit is Spirit." And so, He tells Nicodemus up front and clearly "YOU must be born again." It is only the man in Christ that is a new creation. He/she isn't 'born' a new creation. The Lord Jesus Christ makes that clear.

 

[glorydaz]

Agree. Glory is distancing from both Pelagian and born sinless doctrine. Jerry? I'm not sure, but he looks Pelagian to me. EE. has yet to fully disclose his position, but it talking that out, and I'll listen for a bit.
I agree.

:doh:



What an active imagination you have, Lon. "distancing" :rotfl:

Have you even read your own definition of Pelagian?

Neither Jerry nor I claim men are saved by their own efforts.
We have both quoted verses where the Bible has said eternal life could be earned by keeping the law, and clearly Jesus, Himself, proved that to be true. Had you actually been reading what we have posted over the years, you'd know where we stand on works salvation. But no, you're too ready to jump on us with your flaming swords. :angrymob:


Neither of us believe in the doctrine of original sin. Nowhere is that doctrine preached. It is gleaned (by cherry picking verses rippped from their context)......so that many claim it to be so. It's a theory. Just like Total depravity is a theory. Many claim that to be so, as well.

But do you or Nang want to discuss any of that? NO. You're too hung up on what those scary heretics must be saying. You and Nang make quite a pair. :listen:

 

[Lon]

Indeed....all the words of God.

Jesus also tells us in that verse that He is the way, the truth, and the light. What is that?

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.​

Yes, else we'd be all lost. He is the Only Way.​

Paul makes it so clear. God created us with the knowledge of God (even his eternal power and Godhead), so that we are without excuse.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;​

This shows the wrath of God is against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. That is clearly speaking of knowingly doing wrong. When they choose wrongly, sin lieth at the door. Gen. 4:7 It isn't IN them, it is near at hand.

Romans 3:9 says we are 'under/in' it.

IWe become ungrateful, and vain in our thoughts. Jesus is that true Light that lighteth every man that comes into the world, and we can't claim we didn't know or understand. It has been clearly shown to us. Children have a very simple faith, and I've never doubted for a moment that they are closer to God than we all are after living in this world of sin, and having come under the dominion of the god of this world.

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,​

It is like being born with a cracked block. Until you drive it, the crack will not leak. As soon as you drive it, the engine seizes. It is both the problem of the manufacturer (Adam) and us for living. I don't see depravity as 'blame' as if unfair. I see it as simply being born under poor circumstance. A child cannot drive (by analogy) but need the Lord Jesus Christ. When I was seven, it was that particular condition I was aware of. I wasn't worried about hell, I was simply needing to be 'born of Spirit.' The Lord Jesus Christ said 'let him come unto me, don't hinder him' as far as I understood the scripture. I ran to Him. Broken is broken. Innocent? I was convicted of sin, I had hit my sister and brother, etc. I knew I needed His grace and forgiveness at that age. -Lon

 

[Lon]

:doh: What an active imagination you have, Lon. "distancing" :rotfl:

Petty, choose a better word. Eschewing. etc. Accuracy on this particular, imho, unimportant whatever my imagination happens to be. I'll take the correction but don't see a point.

From Wiki:
Death did not come to Adam from a physical necessity, but through sin.

Neither Jerry nor I claim men are saved by their own efforts.
We have both quoted verses where the Bible has said eternal life could be earned by keeping the law, and clearly Jesus, Himself, proved that to be true. Had you actually been reading what we have posted over the years, you'd know where we stand on works salvation. But no, you're too ready to jump on us with your flaming swords. :angrymob:

"Burn the heretic!" Rather, I was part of a church that believed this and they were dead. They said a lot of what you and Jerry say. The problem, as I see it, is that such a doctrine does not seem to understand at all, what it means to be 'born again.' Jerry thinks 'born-again' is simply forgiveness. :nono: It is Christ in us. That never happened before. It happened the day Christ saved me. I became His new Creation. "Old" had passed away. As far as Pelagian, if it is shown that's Jerry's stance, yeah, it is seen as heresy yet today. Heresy means trampling scripture and trampling Christianity as we understand it from those scriptures.

Pelagius said a lot of things Jerry does:

1. Death did not come to Adam from a physical necessity, but through sin.
2. New-born children must be baptized on account of original sin.
3. Justifying grace not only avails for the forgiveness of past sins, but also gives assistance for the avoidance of future sins.
4. The grace of Christ not only discloses the knowledge of God's commandments, but also imparts strength to will and execute them.
5. Without God's grace it is not merely more difficult, but absolutely impossible to perform good works.
6. Not out of humility, but in truth must we confess ourselves to be sinners.
7. The saints refer the petition of the Our Father, "Forgive us our trespasses", not only to others, but also to themselves.
8. The saints pronounce the same supplication not from mere humility, but from truthfulness.
   
   

   Neither of us believe in the doctrine of original sin. Nowhere is that doctrine preached. It is gleaned (by cherry picking verses rippped from their context)......so that many claim it to be so. It's a theory. Just like Total depravity is a theory. Many claim that to be so, as well.

   Again, Original sin is a doctrinal discussion of being born of flesh, not born of spirit which is 'why' we must be born again. I realize you are against it. To me? It is
   But do you or Nang want to discuss any of that? NO. You're too hung up on what those scary heretics must be saying. You and Nang make quite a pair. :listen:

We disagree on what is plain in scripture. We don't have to agree, but ▲all this▲ isn't going to convince me. As I said, I'm listening, and will give you a fair hearing, but set your case. Show me from scripture. Deal with counter scriptures. For instance: Your objection from Psalm about them being innocent later in the passage, doesn't logically connect. They are righteous, rather because they are distancing from sin, not that they never had it. etc. I'm listening. -Lon

 

[glorydaz]

Well, let's talk about total depravity for a moment: One of the passages Jerry passed over Romans 3:9-13 says:
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. all under sin
10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one; Not only is everyone under sin, everyone 'is not righteous.' Paul is emphatic: "None."

Whoa up there. You started reading that book in the middle.

Paul is quoting from the Psalms. He isn't pulling those verses out of context to make them say something not originally intended...the way you do. There is a whole bunch of stuff Paul tells us before he drops this bomb. You're supposed to read it all.

Before Paul put forth the quote from Psalm 14, he said this...."What if some did not believe....."

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?​

Quoting from the Psalm.... This is talking about the fool who says there is no God...they are corrupt. Then (UH OH), what do I see? I see that God is in the generation of the RIGHTEOUS. You are claiming there are no righteous? You claim that because you don't read the Psalm Paul quotes.

Psalm 14:1-5
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord. There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.​

Now go back even further to Romans 1. All men were created to know God, it's those that are unthankful, BECOME VAIN in their imaginations....only then do their foolish hearts become darkened....they become fools. And that is why you see there is a generation of RIGHTEOUS right along side those fools. Therefore, man cannot be born with the excuse of original sin or being too depraved to seek God.

Romans 1:19-22 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,​

It isn't until our heart is darkened that we are under the dominion of sin. It isn't until we are old enough to choose the evil over the good that sin slays us. Romans 7:11

 

[glorydaz]

Petty, choose a better word. Eschewing. etc. Accuracy on this particular, imho, unimportant whatever my imagination happens to be. I'll take the correction but don't see a point.

What? You're the one who used the word "distancing". You said, "Glory is distancing from both Pelagian and born sinless doctrine." I laughed because I don't know where you got that idea.

Do you know how to be a regular person? The rest of your post is a bunch of gobbledegook. There are things in my post that I didn't say. I dub that whole mess of yours worthy of the dust bin. Start over, and try to get off your high horse while you're fixing that mess.

You could save a lot of space if you spared the lectures.

 

[Lon]

Whoa up there. You started reading that book in the middle.

Paul is quoting from the Psalms. He isn't pulling those verses out of context to make them say something not originally intended...the way you do. There is a whole bunch of stuff Paul tells us before he drops this bomb. You're supposed to read it all.

Before Paul put forth the quote from Psalm 14, he said this...."What if some did not believe....."

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?​

Quoting from the Psalm.... This is talking about the fool who says there is no God...they are corrupt. Then (UH OH), what do I see? I see that God is in the generation of the RIGHTEOUS. You are claiming there are no righteous? You claim that because you don't read the Psalm Paul quotes.

Psalm 14:1-5
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord. There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.​

Now go back even further to Romans 1. All men were created to know God, it's those that are unthankful, BECOME VAIN in their imaginations....only then do their foolish hearts become darkened....they become fools. And that is why you see there is a generation of RIGHTEOUS right along side those fools. Therefore, man cannot be born with the excuse of original sin or being too depraved to seek God.

Romans 1:19-22 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,​

It isn't until our heart is darkened that we are under the dominion of sin. It isn't until we are old enough to choose the evil over the good that sin slays us. Romans 7:11

I've seen the context of the Psalms. Paul doesn't mention the fool, however. He particular leaves that part out, and we'd want to be careful about importing it into Paul's context because Paul is talking about the Jew and gentile specifically all being under sin, such that the Jew is no better off. Paul isn't quoting the scripture, from the context of the fool, but all (and in that, I suppose, we all fools if such were pressed, but he doesn't) Another instance, verse 4 is from Psalm 116 and this is his start. That context isn't about the fool. Romans 3:9 is not a quote from Psalm 14 but rather says that Jew and gentile are equally "under/in sin," specifically because verse 9 isn't in Psalm 14.

 

[Lon]

What? You're the one who used the word "distancing". You said, "Glory is distancing from both Pelagian and born sinless doctrine." I laughed because I don't know where you got that idea.

:idunno: You said you weren't talking about sinless birth doctrine or Pelagianism (or so I thought on Pelagianism).

Do you know how to be a regular person? The rest of your post is a bunch of gobbledegook. There are things in my post that I didn't say. I dub that whole mess of yours worthy of the dust bin. Start over, and try to get off your high horse while you're fixing that mess.

You could save a lot of space if you spared the lectures.

Have I not been attempting that? If a discussion rather than posturing debate is to take place, there has to be a point were we start reading each other and then ask questions instead of jumping the gun or saying "gobbledegook" or "high-horse." Telling you about my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ at the age of 7 is not a high horse or gobbledegook. It is asking about 'your' understanding and giving my 7 year old understanding at the same time. I well remember what I understood at age 7.

I posted a definition of Original sin, to discuss John 3 and then I asked you to give 1) interaction with those scriptures as well as 2) asked you to expound your scriptural imperatives and explain them to me. I've no idea why any of these three would either be unintelligible or a high-horse :idunno: