ECT Classical Vs. Biblical Original Sin - Interlude & DIRECT ASSAULT (Part 3) :execute:

Nick M

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Bottom line... you did get an answer and didn't like it. It was right out of Pauline writings and you confirmed he was aware of both dispensations as he wrote what he wrote in 2 Tim. 3:16.

No, actually you didn't. Do you think the Bible books are in the correct order for a reason?
 

glorydaz

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Jerry, it really is not that hard. Prior to the disobedience of Adam his nature was not fallen , and after the fall Adam had a fallen nature which he passed on to his progeny as in "all die in Adam".

So then your claim is that a lion still nursing from his mother has a different nature than a lion who begins to eat meat? Because that's what you're claiming here. :think:
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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No, actually you didn't. Do you think the Bible books are in the correct order for a reason?

Why do you misquote me, avoid my questions and misrepresent my answers?

And... why do you have an issue with God being Love as 1 John 4:8 says? It seems you hoard Grace for yourself and claim dispensational wisdom, but you refuse to see what Paul and Peter reveal about the first "bride and groom" that point to the true Groom and Creation?!?!

Bottom line... you did get an answer and didn't like it. It was right out of Pauline writings and you confirmed he was aware of both dispensations as he wrote what he wrote in 2 Tim. 3:16.

The full answer...

I already know exactly what you speak of and agree that those books are to the circumcision. I also defend this stance. However, Jesus' red letters bring understanding to the grace age meaning of the books. Please start another thread or bump an old one on why you believe Paul's use of the word "ALL" scripture doesn't mean all, even after you yourself acknowledged that Paul was aware of the Jewish dispensation of scripture and the Gentile dispensation.

You are working to prove a man made doctrinal point that is clearly refuted by Paul. (1 John 2:27) warns against this and I'm sorry you feel that parts of the Bible should be labeled Jew only.

I joked with you about "JewSoEver" and I fully agree that scripture is fully Divinely inspired.

I not only believe in Israels future prophetic implications, but I support the "persistent widow" of today. If it bothers you that I fully believe God meant for all scripture to be valuable to us, as long as it is dispensationally divided and understood... you'll have to bow out.

I want your input... but one last time... the books you mention are very valuable to us... especially those of us that understand the Tanakh.

Please understand that I respect you Nick and I agree with most of what you say...

However... the very books you claim are "locked" to us Goyum... are crucial for most doctrine and especially "original sin" and "the TriUnity" of God. The mechanism of the New Covenant is in those scriptures in ways that impede the gospel, if not taken into account.

You are the one claiming scripture is divinely inspired... and I agree. However... only men teach that this or that must not be read or utilized. Even the Torah carries Gospel material that was revealed from the New Testament and some material is not even expressed but through discernment of All scripture.

Please move forward and cease this tactic in this thread... as men that lock up scripture to others are extremely disillusioned.

Please show me where Paul corrected his ALL scripture as an error on another thread. But the topic here is original sin and how the "Sin Imputation" theory is counter to ALL scripture.

The matter is much more extensive and deserves further study.

- [MENTION=18375]Evil.Eye.<(I)>[/MENTION]
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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And now for the Nick M style ... rigged misquote and brief rigged answer that misrepresents what was actually said....

... you Do ... think the Bible books are in the correct order for a reason...

Yes, but you can't express your ideas unless they fit my idea of what they should be!

# Nailed It

Now can we get back on the topic of "original sin"?
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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When I quoted these verses in regard to how both Adam and Job were created you spoke of Adam and his fallen nature:

Here is how Adam started off:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul"
(Gen.2:7).

Here is how Job started off:

"The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life" (Job.33:4).​

Since Adam was created spiritually alive and Job was made by the Spirit and the LORD breathed life into him just as He did into Adam then it is obvious that Job emerged from the womb spiritually alive.

Thereby blowing the lid off of the myth of Original Sin.
 
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Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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So... I understand you don't mind derailing threads and misquoting people when you're acting like a princess.


Why is it bad to claim that certain books of the Bible are "off limits" to people?


Because you are claiming that scripture is transmitted by God Himself and ignoring 2 Tim. 3:16...

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,​

This is adding false implications to God's design and locking up scripture by the instruction of DOCTRINES OF MEN.

is the New Testament in the order it is?

Yes

Why do Paul's letters fall between Acts of the apostles, all together, then go back to Israel/Hebrews, aka, the circumcision?

Because dispensation is further amplified by the order and Jesus' words must be further amplified through Pauline writings to understand how James through Revelation must be understood in the grace age dispensation.

Why not put Paul's letters at the end

You never read what people say to you if they disagree with you... even if you're wrong. I already answered this 50 different ways, but you're being a princess because you dislike that your cherished doctrine of Augustine Original Sin is a lie.

But... it doesn't matter, because you're about to go full retard and suggest that those books of the Bible are only for the circumcision to utilize in the close of the grace age, while simultaneously discrediting Jesus Christ in the process as an "Author of confusion".

I really wish you understood how stupid the men who teach this as doctrine are! It's a stupid, lying Pharisee ploy to destroy the value of scripture and the "God is Love" of the matter!
 

Nick M

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Because dispensation is further amplified by the order and Jesus' words must be further amplified through Pauline writings to understand how James through Revelation must be understood in the grace age dispensation.

Right. So they why do you claim to be outside the current administration or dispensation?
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Did you build a 300 cubit long ark for your salvation?

If you read Peter... you will see that the Ark is a Symbol of baptism... "not the washing of the filth of the flesh... but an offering of a sincere conscience."

But you, Nick M, have built yourself a 300 cubit Long Ark out of falsehood.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Thank you! Now back to you're confusion about what happened in the garden and your habit of insinuating God is a feminist, because 1 John 4:8 calls Him Love and Peter echoes Paul about the allegory of the Bride and Groom which draws directly from the garden of Eden.
 

glorydaz

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Why do you misquote me, avoid my questions and misrepresent my answers?

And... why do you have an issue with God being Love as 1 John 4:8 says? It seems you hoard Grace for yourself and claim dispensational wisdom, but you refuse to see what Paul and Peter reveal about the first "bride and groom" that point to the true Groom and Creation?!?!

There are certainly some wonderful truths in all the word of God. The problem comes when people use everything to APPLY to us, which happens way too frequently. I used to have to put a lot of things on the shelf, because I saw where there was not agreement. It was only when I came to understand that all those things were not meant to APPLY to me that I was able to make sense of those things I'd had to shelf in the past. :carryon:
 

Shasta

New member
I still didn't get an answer. I am going to show you why 1 John, 2 John, Peter, Hebrews...is not written to the Body of Christ.

I do not think the order of the books, in itself, verifies a particular chronological order. The evidence I cited was internal and external. I will read your answer but I would really rather not start yet another thread on MAD. There are enough already. At any rate I am going to quote the NT books as inspired and applicable to all believers which is what Christians have done since the First Century.
 

Shasta

New member
When I quoted these verses in regard to how both Adam and Job were created you spoke of Adam and his fallen nature:

Here is how Adam started off:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul"
(Gen.2:7).

Here is how Job started off:

"The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life" (Job.33:4).​

Since Adam was created spiritually alive and Job was made by the Spirit and the LORD breathed life into him just as He did into Adam then it is obvious that Job emerged from the womb spiritually alive.

Thereby blowing the lid off of the myth of Original Sin.

So you are saying that when people are conceived God breaths into them creating the human spirit?
 

Shasta

New member
Hi Shasta,

I will tread light again, because I know you Love Jesus and are sincere and focused on His Love. I want to point out something that is the core reason I believe the topic of "Origonal Sin" is so critical to "Biblically" understand.

There is no easy way to say this... I highly recommend you evaluate the first OP in this series. The Link is HERE.

Let's do this the fair way... I'll give you the Red Pill and the Blue Pill.

You're going to have to "choose". The Red Pill is symbolic of blunt, biblical truth that is bound to all scripture but is enormously rugged to take in. The Blue Pill is symbolic of wanting a peaceful discussion on this matter without any abrasive scripture to your respectable perspective.

I can be a bit "theatrical"... so here goes...



First... the Blue Pill. (Open this Spoiler to choose the Blue)



Spoiler
I am a forgiven sinner and nothing more. My words are human and I only get matters correct by Jesus. (John 5:39) is the very heart of my personal, theological perspective. I was challenged by Arians to go deeper into the biblical doctrine about the "TriUnity" of God. In this study and debate, I believe we could mutually grow by discussing this matter. You are brilliant and you clearly are passionate about Jesus.

I have many verses and expositions on the matter that Glorify the very Supremacy of Jesus. We could approach this matter together in the future if you would enjoy the study


Now... [MENTION=9592]Shasta[/MENTION]... This will come off harsh, but I am sincere and I sincerely believe my initial suspicion about a matter has been revealed. Please do not open this coming spoiler if you would be hurt by my blunt reproof of your statement through scripture.

The Red Pill...



Spoiler
Shasta... I respect you as an Acts 11:26 follower, but... you are in grave doctrine error that gets covered over by much of Christondom....

You said this...



Jesus is the Almighty... (Is. 9:6). Makes it clear that though He is the Son... He is the very presence and Glory of "The Mighty God" ... "Everlasting Father".

When you say that being "Christ Like" is attempting to accomplish Moral Perfection like Jesus, you are doing something you would never actually want to do... but you are indeed doing it.

Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’​

And again...

Gen. 3:5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”​

And again...

Ezek. 28:17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;

I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.​

I could go on... (1 Cor. 5:5)

Jesus even specifies this...

John 8:15

15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.​

Because we know Jesus only looked to the heart and is the "Supreme Judge"... we know that the judge of flesh is Satan and when we judge our flesh or another's in comparison to God... we are perpetuating the very lie of Satan that shames us by the standards of God, in place of our imperfection when held next to God.

God made us and He loved us as His from Adam to now. He has never, not Loved us. He counts us perfect "by His Love" and thus... we should too. His Love... His provision... His creation... His design... His "finished work"...

Shasta... His grace is sufficient...

If you weren't a "guide" to others, this would be a personal matter for you, but Shasta... you've been deceived into encouraging others to commit the true "Original Sin". You humble yourself and exalt Him. Your attempts at moral perfection impede His work and cause others to stumble. Your personal walk is yours alone... but you impact others. Grace is impeded when you focus on "obedience" and teach others to be "Christ-Like".

The scripture that uses this verbiage is being misunderstood by you. We are cracked vessels of clay... His Power is perfected in "weakness". This is not Antinomiansm... it is the Truth of HE who came for Sinners.

We are not He and We never will be. This is Good. He alone is GOOD.

I love you brother and have a way of offending those I see potential in... and since Jesus saw potential in ALL... I offend MANY.

All Grace, respect and recognition that I am a mere human expressing ideas... humbly awaiting your rebuke, inquisition, acceptance of what has been said here... or silence.


From my heart and prayerfully in the Spirit of Jesus...

- <(PW)>

Thank you for your kind words. Just for the record, I do not believe anyone can be Christ-like apart from Christ Himself. Jesus said that to bear the fruit of His character we must "abide in Him" and that "without Him we can do nothing." Whenever we think Christ's is just a good moral example that we can copy we end up failing because we have attempted to copy someone who is God-centered while remaining self-centered ourselves. I have been down that path before and failed many times. If Christ just raised the bar of God's moral expectations then all we have is another system of law one that is so deep that it probes our motives. However, God did not leave us with another rule book. He sent the Helper so that we would not be left to do it on our own. He indwells us, writing the essence of God's moral principles on our hearts. Still, it is God's will for us to be conformed to Christ's image. He Himself is the template which we must become like but the power to be LIKE Him comes from Christ who indwells us.

When it comes to doing Christ's work, all that I know, theoretically and experiential very often seems totally inadequate. Sometimes I see God's grace work. Other times I do not. I have found that I am most able to help in those areas where I am weak, where I have survived only because of the grace of God. It is like someone has thrown a grenade into my living room and blows. Afterward there is the big hole in the middle you cannot get around. Then the hole fills up with water and I realize it is a well which can help others. I do not think I am able at all to do what Christ commanded except that the Holy Spirit helps me.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Thank you for your kind words. Just for the record, I do not believe anyone can be Christ-like apart from Christ Himself. Jesus said that to bear the fruit of His character we must "abide in Him" and that "without Him we can do nothing." Whenever we think Christ's is just a good moral example that we can copy we end up failing because we have attempted to copy someone who is God-centered while remaining self-centered ourselves. I have been down that path before and failed many times. If Christ just raised the bar of God's moral expectations then all we have is another system of law one that is so deep that it probes our motives. However, God did not leave us with another rule book. He sent the Helper so that we would not be left to do it on our own. He indwells us, writing the essence of God's moral principles on our hearts. Still, it is God's will for us to be conformed to Christ's image. He Himself is the template which we must become like but the power to be LIKE Him comes from Christ who indwells us.

When it comes to doing Christ's work, all that I know, theoretically and experiential very often seems totally inadequate. Sometimes I see God's grace work. Other times I do not. I have found that I am most able to help in those areas where I am weak, where I have survived only because of the grace of God. It is like someone has thrown a grenade into my living room and blows. Afterward there is the big hole in the middle you cannot get around. Then the hole fills up with water and I realize it is a well which can help others. I do not think I am able at all to do what Christ commanded except that the Holy Spirit helps me.

The way you have worded this acknowledges several points that help me understand what you are saying.

1) You acknowledge that you fail.
2) You acknowledge that your flesh is never righteous.
3) You acknowledge the "soul" conformity work of the Holy Spirit within you.
4) You have essentially acknowledged that it is Christ "through" you and not "you at all" that is Good.
5) You return all Glory to Christ and you seem to be centered on "Love".

Have I understood you correctly?
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Parts of it are. I am specifically asking why are Paul's letters all together, then the books go back to Israel. Why?

I only ask one thing... I am about to launch the 4th part of this series... so you are welcome to discuss matters with Shasta about dispensation... I would staunchly recommend that you do not deny the "All" portion of 2 Tim. 3:16 to Shasta as they will instantly reject your premise.

If you want to explain how even scripture divides Israel from the Body of Christ... I'm good for it. I must be honest with you... you would not be my first go to reference to guide in this matter as you reject the "persistent widow" of today and thus... you yourself have much to study on the matter.

- EE
 
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