ECT Classical Vs. Biblical Original Sin - Interlude & DIRECT ASSAULT (Part 3) :execute:

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Classical Vs. Biblical Original Sin - Interlude & DIRECT ASSAULT (Part 3) :execute:

As I combed through the new posts in part 2 of this OP series... I came across [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] speaking a "Spiritual Teaching". It was dismissed with some words that kind of pushed me over the top. So... say good-by to Mr. Nice EE for today...

Original Sin of the Doctrine Type is about to get lined up and attacked on a level that it now has officially earned. This organic part of the multi-part OP series is a break from the coarse and direct assault at the core lies that original sin of the "man-made doctrine" type can't perpetuate when brought up against 2 spiritual facts that SCRIPTURE implicitly teaches with the aid of (1 John 2:27).

2 Spiritual Facts...

1) The Spirit of God is our very source of life that changes us from the union of two people into a "Living Soul". It's time to let the Pneuma "Speak" for "His Self"!

2) God is without Sin and thus God is Sinless by His Own LAW!

F1rst Th1ngs F1rst

Breath
Pneuma​
Spirit
Word​
Memra
Wind​
Life
Voice​
Light
Light of the World​
Way
Narrow Gate​

When Jesus speaks in scripture... it should shatter the carnal understanding within a repentant SOUL...

To be blunt... WHEN those RED LETTERS jump out... No other TEACHER (Matthew 23:8) should matter!

In case you didn't know... He is the very LIGHT of CREATION (Gen. 1:3; John 1:4; John 8:12; John 14:6)

If you can't "see" why "Spiritual Death" is likened unto "Spiritual Blindness", you probably don't realize WHO has been with every HUMAN BEING since the day their Flesh was intertwined with THE VERY BREATH OF GOD to bring forth their "SOUL"!

If you can't "SEE" that we are to treat everyone as if they are GOD-WITH-US, then you haven't been reading this...

Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’​

When we are born... we are born of SPIRIT and WATER. When we SIN... We DIE or GO BLIND (Gen. 3:7) to the very ONE that Binds us TO LIFE! (Ezekiel 18:20) Do you "SEE" it? (Luke 24:31) The "SOUL"? Do you understand?!? (Gen. 3:8; John 6:63, 66)

Matthew 6:22 “The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!​

Do you "SEE" HIM?

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”​

Can you hide from that which DWELLS within you as your very source of LIFE?

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.​

Do you have... "EYES" and "EARS" (Prov. 20:12) ... Do you "Understand"... (John 9:25) ... Because only HIS SHEEP ... (John 10:27)

And now... The very reason that Classical Original Sin Doctrine is a Lie of the tongue of the LIAR... (John 8:44)!

Let's throw back to Moses and draw that old Stone Sword!

Exodus 23:23 “You shall not circulate a false report. Do not put your hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness. 2 You shall not follow a crowd to do evil; nor shall you testify in a dispute so as to turn aside after many to pervert justice....

7 Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked. 8 And you shall take no bribe, for a bribe blinds the discerning and perverts the words of the righteous.

Original Sin of the Classical type says that all mankind is "imputed" with Adam's Sin!

Has it dawned on anyone that the idea God would bring a charge against a "New-Born Baby" that the BABY hasn't even committed is calling God a LIAR? Has anyone ever considered that the very Doctrine makes God guilty of HIS OWN LAW?

Is our Lord God, Jesus Christ now a "False Witness"?

If you don't want to "See" this... You have officially elevated the "Teachings of Men" above the "Righteousness" of the ONLY "GOOD" ONE! Do you "Comprehend" this?

Classical Original Sin?!?

What's That?

:idunno:
 
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Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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I was kind of worried about posting this one, as fall out is beginning to be intense from the carpet bombing of "Original Sin".

But then It dawned on me!

For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.​
 
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Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I hear to discuss what scripture says about it.
I can do without all the theatrics because they are distracting to me, and it makes digging through your posts for the substance unnecessarily tedious.
But that's just my personal preference. All the theatrics may suit others just fine.
What works for some doesn't work for others.
To each his own.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Banned
I hear to discuss what scripture says about it.
I can do without all the theatrics because they are distracting to me, and it makes digging through your posts for the substance unnecessarily tedious.
But that's just my personal preference. All the theatrics may suit others just fine.
What works for some doesn't work for others.
To each his own.

Hmmmm... fair enough... I'll edit it.

Theatrical Edit Here... In case anyone else is interested.

Spoiler
As I combed through the new posts in part 2 of this OP series... I came across [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] speaking a "Spiritual Teaching". It was dismissed with some words that kind of pushed me over the top. So... say good-by to Mr. Nice EE for today...

Original Sin of the Doctrine Type is about to get lined up and attacked on a level that it now has officially earned. This organic part of the multi-part OP series is a break from the coarse and direct assault at the core lies that original sin of the "man-made doctrine" type can't perpetuate when brought up against 2 spiritual facts that SCRIPTURE implicitly teaches with the aid of (1 John 2:27).



2 Spiritual Facts...

1) The Spirit of God is our very source of life that changes us from the union of two people into a "Living Soul". It's time to let the Pneuma "Speak" for "His Self"!

2) God is without Sin and thus God is Sinless by His Own LAW!

F1rst Th1ngs F1rst

Breath
Pneuma​
Spirit
Word​
Memra
Wind​
Life
Voice​
Light
Light of the World​
Way
Narrow Gate​

When Jesus speaks in scripture... it should have this sort of effect on a repentant SOUL...


To be blunt... WHEN those RED LETTERS jump out... No other TEACHER (Matthew 23:8) should matter!



In case you didn't know... He is the very LIGHT of CREATION (Gen. 1:3; John 1:4; John 8:12; John 14:6)

If you can't "see" why "Spiritual Death" is likened unto "Spiritual Blindness", you probably don't realize WHO has been with every HUMAN BEING since the day their Flesh was intertwined with THE VERY BREATH OF GOD to bring forth their "SOUL"!

If you can't "SEE" that we are to treat everyone as if they are GOD-WITH-US, then you haven't been reading this...

Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’​

When we are born... we are born of SPIRIT and WATER. When we SIN... We DIE or GO BLIND (Gen. 3:7) to the very ONE that Binds us TO LIFE! (Ezekiel 18:20) Do you "SEE" it? (Luke 24:31) The "SOUL"? Do you understand?!? (Gen. 3:8; John 6:63, 66)

Matthew 6:22 “The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!​

Do you "SEE" HIM?

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”​

Can you hide from that which DWELLS within you as your very source of LIFE?

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.​

Do you have... "EYES" and "EARS" (Prov. 20:12) ... Do you "Understand"... (John 9:25) ... Because only HIS SHEEP ... (John 10:27)

And now... The very reason that Classical Original Sin Doctrine is a Lie of the tongue of the LIAR... (John 8:44)!

Let's throw back to Moses and draw that old Stone Sword!



Exodus 23:23 “You shall not circulate a false report. Do not put your hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness. 2 You shall not follow a crowd to do evil; nor shall you testify in a dispute so as to turn aside after many to pervert justice....

7 Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked. 8 And you shall take no bribe, for a bribe blinds the discerning and perverts the words of the righteous.

Original Sin of the Classical type says that all mankind is "imputed" with Adam's Sin!

Has it dawned on anyone that the idea God would bring a charge against a "New-Born Baby" that the BABY hasn't even committed is calling God a LIAR? Has anyone ever considered that the very Doctrine makes God guilty of HIS OWN LAW?

Is our Lord God, Jesus Christ now a "False Witness"?

If you don't want to "See" this... You have officially elevated the "Teachings of Men" above the "Righteousness" of the ONLY "GOOD" ONE! Do you "Comprehend" this?

Classical Original Sin?!?



And... Thank you for the wise words.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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If you refresh the thread, the actual OP is now De-Theatricalized.

The original version remains in response to your outstanding observation.
 

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Ezekiel 18:20-21 KJV
(20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
(21) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.


A few things to take note of in these verses.

It's speaking of individuals, and not as a corporate group.
In other words, it's not about the corporate group being cursed because of what some have done (as when Israel is corporately punished even though every individual did not participate in the offense).

The soul that sinneth shall die. NOT, you die if someone else sinned.
So what sort of "death" is it speaking of?
A physical death, or a spiritual death, or some other type of death?



We also see that any individual sins committed by the parents are not imputed to the children, and vise versa.
You are guilty of sins you committed, and not the sins of others.


This part is very interesting.
The wicked WILL NOT DIE if they turn from wickedness.
What "death" is that speaking of?
Can't be physical death because they will die physically whether they turn from their sins or not.
Seems kinda silly to say one will not die spiritually when they turn from their sins unless they were already alive spiritually.

So what is this "death" speaking of?


How many types of "death" are eluded to in scripture?
And how many types of "death" in scripture are permanent, and how many types are temporary?



We have the story of the prodigal son in which he was alive, then dead, then alive again.
Obviously both the 'alive' and 'dead' are temporal.

When have instances of a temporal physical death.
Folks were brought back to physical life after being physically dead.
1 Kings 17:21
2 Kings 13:21
Luke 7:15
John 11:44
etc.

Once again, both their lives and deaths were temporal.


So one thing we must do is separate the temporal life and death from permanent life and death; and apply it to each scripture about "life" and "death".

Permanent death happens at the lake of fire, referred to as the 2nd death (Rev 20:14).
 

dodge

New member
As I combed through the new posts in part 2 of this OP series... I came across [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] speaking a "Spiritual Teaching". It was dismissed with some words that kind of pushed me over the top. So... say good-by to Mr. Nice EE for today...

Original Sin of the Doctrine Type is about to get lined up and attacked on a level that it now has officially earned. This organic part of the multi-part OP series is a break from the coarse and direct assault at the core lies that original sin of the "man-made doctrine" type can't perpetuate when brought up against 2 spiritual facts that SCRIPTURE implicitly teaches with the aid of (1 John 2:27).

2 Spiritual Facts...

1) The Spirit of God is our very source of life that changes us from the union of two people into a "Living Soul". It's time to let the Pneuma "Speak" for "His Self"!

2) God is without Sin and thus God is Sinless by His Own LAW!

F1rst Th1ngs F1rst

Breath
Pneuma​
Spirit
Word​
Memra
Wind​
Life
Voice​
Light
Light of the World​
Way
Narrow Gate​

When Jesus speaks in scripture... it should shatter the carnal understanding within a repentant SOUL...

To be blunt... WHEN those RED LETTERS jump out... No other TEACHER (Matthew 23:8) should matter!

In case you didn't know... He is the very LIGHT of CREATION (Gen. 1:3; John 1:4; John 8:12; John 14:6)

If you can't "see" why "Spiritual Death" is likened unto "Spiritual Blindness", you probably don't realize WHO has been with every HUMAN BEING since the day their Flesh was intertwined with THE VERY BREATH OF GOD to bring forth their "SOUL"!

If you can't "SEE" that we are to treat everyone as if they are GOD-WITH-US, then you haven't been reading this...

Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’​

When we are born... we are born of SPIRIT and WATER. When we SIN... We DIE or GO BLIND (Gen. 3:7) to the very ONE that Binds us TO LIFE! (Ezekiel 18:20) Do you "SEE" it? (Luke 24:31) The "SOUL"? Do you understand?!? (Gen. 3:8; John 6:63, 66)

Matthew 6:22 “The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!​

Do you "SEE" HIM?

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”​

Can you hide from that which DWELLS within you as your very source of LIFE?

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.​

Do you have... "EYES" and "EARS" (Prov. 20:12) ... Do you "Understand"... (John 9:25) ... Because only HIS SHEEP ... (John 10:27)

And now... The very reason that Classical Original Sin Doctrine is a Lie of the tongue of the LIAR... (John 8:44)!

Let's throw back to Moses and draw that old Stone Sword!

Exodus 23:23 “You shall not circulate a false report. Do not put your hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness. 2 You shall not follow a crowd to do evil; nor shall you testify in a dispute so as to turn aside after many to pervert justice....

7 Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked. 8 And you shall take no bribe, for a bribe blinds the discerning and perverts the words of the righteous.

Original Sin of the Classical type says that all mankind is "imputed" with Adam's Sin!

Has it dawned on anyone that the idea God would bring a charge against a "New-Born Baby" that the BABY hasn't even committed is calling God a LIAR? Has anyone ever considered that the very Doctrine makes God guilty of HIS OWN LAW?

Is our Lord God, Jesus Christ now a "False Witness"?

If you don't want to "See" this... You have officially elevated the "Teachings of Men" above the "Righteousness" of the ONLY "GOOD" ONE! Do you "Comprehend" this?

Classical Original Sin?!?

What's That?

:idunno:

I read in one of your post where you said you are a Jesuits I have a question.

The attack of the very foundation of accepted scripture on the fall of man is :

1. Because you sincerely believe it to be wrong ?

2. IS this a general attack on Protestantism ?



For your consideration:


If the federal headship of Adam and the imputation of his sin unto all his posterity be repudiated, then what alternative is left us?
Only that of the separate testing of each individual. If the race were not placed on probation in the first man, then each of his offspring
must stand trial for himself. But the conditions of such a trial make success impossible, for each probationer would enter upon it in a
state of spiritual death! The human family is either suffering for the sin of its head or it is suffering for nothing at all. “Man is born
unto trouble,” and from it there is no escape. What then is the explanation of the grim tragedy now being enacted on this earth? Every
effect must have a previous cause. If we be not born under the condemnation of Adam’s offence, then why are we “by nature the children
of wrath” (Eph. 2:3)? “Now either man was tried and fell in Adam, or he has been condemned without trial. He is either under the
curse (as it rests upon him from the beginning of his existence), for Adam’s guilt, or for no guilt at all. Judge which is more honouring
to God: a doctrine which, although profoundly mysterious, represents Him as giving man an equitable and most favourable probation
in his federal head, or that which makes God condemn him untried, even before he exists” (R. L. Dabney).
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Banned
I read in one of your post where you said you are a Jesuits I have a question.

The attack of the very foundation of accepted scripture on the fall of man is :

1. Because you sincerely believe it to be wrong ?

2. IS this a general attack on Protestantism ?



For your consideration:


If the federal headship of Adam and the imputation of his sin unto all his posterity be repudiated, then what alternative is left us?
Only that of the separate testing of each individual. If the race were not placed on probation in the first man, then each of his offspring
must stand trial for himself. But the conditions of such a trial make success impossible, for each probationer would enter upon it in a
state of spiritual death! The human family is either suffering for the sin of its head or it is suffering for nothing at all. “Man is born
unto trouble,” and from it there is no escape. What then is the explanation of the grim tragedy now being enacted on this earth? Every
effect must have a previous cause. If we be not born under the condemnation of Adam’s offence, then why are we “by nature the children
of wrath” (Eph. 2:3)? “Now either man was tried and fell in Adam, or he has been condemned without trial. He is either under the
curse (as it rests upon him from the beginning of his existence), for Adam’s guilt, or for no guilt at all. Judge which is more honouring
to God: a doctrine which, although profoundly mysterious, represents Him as giving man an equitable and most favourable probation
in his federal head, or that which makes God condemn him untried, even before he exists” (R. L. Dabney).

Jesuit? That is not me. I'm Jewish by Blood and my Mothers upbringing of me, but Jesuit I am not. If you could please find the post... I need to see it so I can edit it.

I may have said a Jesusist as a way of explaining to someone that John 5:39f is the core to my understanding... would this be your reference? Once we clear this up... I'll move on and answer the rest of your post.
 
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Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Ezekiel 18:20-21 KJV
(20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
(21) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

A few things to take note of in these verses.

It's speaking of individuals, and not as a corporate group.
In other words, it's not about the corporate group being cursed because of what some have done (as when Israel is corporately punished even though every individual did not participate in the offense).

I couldn't agree more with what you have said here. It is so obvious that it would have to be removed from scripture to make "Classical original sin" stick.

The soul that sinneth shall die. NOT, you die if someone else sinned.
So what sort of "death" is it speaking of?
A physical death, or a spiritual death, or some other type of death?[/COLOR]

Exactly! And that's not even taking into account this Cross Referenced Link to Ezek. 18:20

We also see that any individual sins committed by the parents are not imputed to the children, and vise versa.
You are guilty of sins you committed, and not the sins of others.

Sincerely! On the money! Just as it says...

Deut. 24:16 “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.​

[/COLOR]This part is very interesting.
The wicked WILL NOT DIE if they turn from wickedness.
What "death" is that speaking of?
Can't be physical death because they will die physically whether they turn from their sins or not.
Seems kinda silly to say one will not die spiritually when they turn from their sins unless they were already alive spiritually.

I think this is exactly why this is actually so important. I didn't think it was at first, but now I'm beginning to see that "Classical Original Sin", which is a "Reformed" pass down from the "Mother Church" has snaked it's way into some of the best theological minds!

It has that "where the hay did that person's biblical common sense go" smell to it! This point is enormous and deeply undervalued.

So what is this "death" speaking of?

Exactly... This is a point of focus now. I appreciate the guidance with this well crafted question.

How many types of "death" are eluded to in scripture?

Hmmm... I'll give it a shot.

Death of the Person in the "temporal" is the obvious one.

Death of the "Spiritual Sight" is one of them.

The TWICE Dead state of the Spiritually Hardened person that is referred to in Jude... (Jude 1:12)... and that seems to tie in with (2 Peter 2:21) ... and... note that these are "Living People" that are declared "Twice Dead" due to their initial Hearing of the Gospel, but clear Rejection of it... This sounds like grieving the Spirit.

There is obviously the Lake of Fire Death (Matthew 10:28)

That's all I can think of at the moment. Does that seem complete?

And how many types of "death" in scripture are permanent, and how many types are temporary?

Hmmmm.

Obviously there is "Temporal" Death of the person in "this life".

"Spiritual Death" seams to be "Temporal".

The Twice Dead state has a caveat that is interesting...

Matthew 23:33

Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?​

I always read in grace when I am approached with a choice that involves "Damnation". If God looks at me one day and says... "Actually, they're 100 percent kindling"... I'm obviously going to say... "Well, so am I, but You saved me." If He smiles and says... "It's time to draw the sword and lay mercy aside."... I'll say, "Can I have a broad sword?"

We have the story of the prodigal son in which he was alive, then dead, then alive again.
Obviously both the 'alive' and 'dead' are temporal.
This is an undeniable point...

Luke 15:24

24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.​

When have instances of a temporal physical death.
Folks were brought back to physical life after being physically dead.
1 Kings 17:21
2 Kings 13:21
Luke 7:15
John 11:44
etc.

Indeed... Excellent verses!


Once again, both their lives and deaths were temporal.

So one thing we must do is separate the temporal life and death from permanent life and death; and apply it to each scripture about "life" and "death".

This sounds like a scripture search and I like the idea of it. This is a very precise matter and it should receive precise scriptural attention.


Permanent death happens at the lake of fire, referred to as the 2nd death (Rev 20:14).

This is a very important point as it is the very judgment of God.
 

dodge

New member
Jesuit? That is not me. I'm Jewish by Blood and my Mothers upbringing of me, but Jesuit I am not. If you could please find the post... I need to see it so I can edit it.

I may have said a Jesusist as a way of explaining to someone that John 5:39f is the core to my understanding... would this be your reference. Once we clear this up... I'll move on and answer the rest of your post.

The easy way is to click on your name and edit your posts. I will look but I don't remember the particular thread.

I probably misread it I have Old timers disease some times.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Banned
The easy way is to click on your name and edit your posts. I will look but I don't remember the particular thread.

I probably misread it I have Old timers disease some times.

Okay... so... to directly address your post... the "mother church" is what most people consider "reform". I know this is going to sound rotten, and I try to avoid saying it, but traditional "Reformed" theology that is embraced by the collective "protestant" community is still tightly bound to Papal doctrine. There are revisions, but the bulk of the material is still Catholic or "Universal".

This is in no way an intended attack on any entity, other than the spirit of Deception that is in the world.

I refuse to embrace a single doctrine in my grey matter, unless it lines up with ALL scripture, and this is about a specific matter that is under that scrutiny.

My THESIS attack on the "catholic doctrine" of original sin "Augustine"... is actually that to interpret Romans 5:12-18 as Adam's Sin is Imputed onto all living beings is to say that God imputed guilt on the "guiltless".

We all screw up just fine on our own, and I believe that this vile doctrine is causing much confusion in matters that get in the direct path of GRACE.

Does that clarify matters?
 

dodge

New member
Evil.Eye.<(I)>;4984859]Okay... so... to directly address your post... the "mother church" is what most people consider "reform". I know this is going to sound rotten, and I try to avoid saying it, but traditional "Reformed" theology that is embraced by the collective "protestant" community is still tightly bound to Papal doctrine. There are revisions, but the bulk of the material is still Catholic or "Universal".

I browsed your posts but could not fine the post I was referring to but since you use Jesusist I am pretty sure I got that one wrong. My apologies.

This is in no way an intended attack on any entity, other than the spirit of Deception that is in the world.

Not a thing wrong with studying the scriptures to see if those before us got it wrong. Some things they got right some wrong no doubt.

I refuse to embrace a single doctrine in my grey matter, unless it lines up with ALL scripture, and this is about a specific matter that is under that scrutiny.

Understood and agree.

My THESIS attack on the "catholic doctrine" of original sin "Augustine"... is actually that to interpret Romans 5:12-18 as Adam's Sin is Imputed onto all living beings is to say that God imputed guilt on the "guiltless".


I don't know if the doctrine is "catholic" as in Roman Catholic the more I study it the more it was universally believed by the vast majority of Christians.

We all screw up just fine on our own, and I believe that this vile doctrine is causing much confusion in matters that get in the direct path of GRACE.

I see more than enough scripture that supports original sin being passed from Adam to mankind.

Does that clarify matters?

Absolutely.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] ... I was taking another path, but when we converged on this matter, I feel it's time to bring your specific attention to the goal of this thread.

Number 1... I fully agree that the Spirit of God is the very Life giving Spirit that binds our Soul to our Flesh. I was going to avoid bringing this up, because the "holier than thou" crowd gets mighty angry that God dwells in all beings. I clearly differentiate the additional Spirit of Christ from the Spirit of God that binds all to Life. I would even go so far as to say that it is the FATHER that does this. There are an enormous amount of proof texts to back this up, but I figured you should know my perspective and if you see it different, I will gladly listen.

When I first was genuinely "converted" by Christ... I saw every being as being "indwelled" by God. Not in the Eph. 1:13 way, but I understood scripture to be imploring me to respect ALL LIFE.

Sincerely... No teaching I have grasped since that day has shifted my soul to the very ROCK of ALL AGES and this is why the negative address towards you on this matter sparked this thread.

I believe [MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION] is correct as well... We need to divide scripture very specifically in the matter of Birth and Death.

Perhaps the disagreement we are now seeing among our "Dispensational" brethren isn't in the exact concept, but a lack of correct division of scripture. I noted this on [MENTION=6141]Nick M[/MENTION]'s thread and [MENTION=15338]Right Divider[/MENTION] was the one that brought it to the forefront.

I know you are busy with many threads, but I am ready to light this view point up with supporting and counter scripture. I believe we are now discussing a Spiritual teaching that "Augustine Original Sin" has swept under the rug.

Where's [MENTION=9592]Shasta[/MENTION] at moments like this. I started out harsh with them, but I could totally use their feed back to counter matters and force scriptural search!
[MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] ... too much discussion has occurred on this matter to crush it now. If you're good to evaluate scripture on these two matters... your scriptural recall from the impression of the Spirit of Christ would be deeply appreciated as well.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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I browsed your posts but could not fine the post I was referring to but since you use Jesusist I am pretty sure I got that one wrong. My apologies.



Not a thing wrong with studying the scriptures to see if those before us got it wrong. Some things they got right some wrong no doubt.



Understood and agree.




I don't know if the doctrine is "catholic" as in Roman Catholic the more I study it the more it was universally believed by the vast majority of Christians.



I see more than enough scripture that supports original sin being passed from Adam to mankind.



Absolutely.

So... you tick a lot of people off... maybe this is why I like agreeing to disagree with you. Thanks for giving counter perspective, but not crying foul.

You are welcome to counter any of us discussing matters here. Anything to drive this discussion forward.

I will ask this one question... Does God impute guilt upon the innocent?
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Okay... So here Goes my initial contribution to this discussion...
[MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION]... I'll take on "Twice Dead Spiritually" Verses...

Ezekiel 34:18

18 Is it too little for you to have eaten up the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the residue of your pasture—and to have drunk of the clear waters, that you must foul the residue with your feet?​

Hosea 6:4

Impenitence of Israel and Judah
4 “O Ephraim, what shall I do to you?
O Judah, what shall I do to you?
For your faithfulness is like a morning cloud,
And like the early dew it goes away.

Matthew 13:6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.​

Matthew 21:19-20

19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away.

20 And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, “How did the fig tree wither away so soon?”​

Mark 4:6 But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away.​

Mark 11:20-21

20 Now in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. 21 And Peter, remembering, said to Him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree which You cursed has withered away.”​

Luke 8:6 Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture.​

Luke 12:19-20
19 And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.”’ 20 But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?’​

Luke 12:45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk,​

Luke 16:19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.​

Luke 21:34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.​

1 Corinthians 11:20-22

20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.​

1 Thessalonians 5:6-7

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.​

Hebrews 6:4-8

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.​

James 5:5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter.​

2 Peter 2:13-14

13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children.​

John 15:4-6

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.​

Philippians 3:19

19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.​

2 Peter 2:17-20

17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Deceptions of False Teachers
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.​

Proverbs 25:14

14 Whoever falsely boasts of giving
Is like clouds and wind without rain.​

Ezekiel 34:8

8 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “surely because My flock became a prey, and My flock became food for every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, nor did My shepherds search for My flock, but the shepherds fed themselves and did not feed My flock”—​

Ephesians 4:14

14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,​

Matthew 15:13

13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.​

Jude 12

12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;​

I will go deeper into this post and add emboldening and observation over the next few days... but one thing is clear... the twice dead are the Apostates of the Lord's Grace.

They are very close to the Second death!
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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People that liken the cross to "sweeping under the rug" are false.

We all are in utter need of Jesus and the Cross without being imputed another's guilt. I'll pony up and tell you that I would be DAMNED without Christ and the Cross, Burial and Resurrection.

What say you Nick?

Did you need Adam's guilt to show you your need for Jesus?

If you are insinuating that my "wording" or search is false... I accept your rebuke... but I ask you [MENTION=6141]Nick M[/MENTION] ...

Do you need Adam's Sin to show you yours?

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit of Christ is only necessary if only ONE MAN's Guilt is imputed?

Why does Paul say that ALL Men Fall Short?

Why are all of us destined to either ADMIT, or Deny that "Our very Righteousness is nothing more than stinking works of dying flesh", until it becomes DEAD by the Work of OUR Lord and God, Jesus Christ and our one single Confession to the Lover of our Souls?

You want me to toughen up? I'm sick of pandering to Calvinism and Reformed lies that are extensions of the Catholic Church! Original Sin leads right into the idea that God doesn't allow free will, and is Oppressive on a global level.

Does our LORD and GOD, Jesus Christ Transgress His Own LAW and IMPUTE Guilt upon the "Guiltless" at the "moment of conception", or before such time?
 
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