Church and believers are not to judge, God and Christ will judge.

[Nick M]

He isn't the worst sinner. That is non-sense and that isn't what protos means. It means first. I offered up the word prototype, because it means the first of its kind. Not one of a kind. The word for that is unique.

The prototype is he is saved by faith alone.

 

[Derf]

• The Nation of Israel: This program was prophesied "since the world began" (Acts 3:21). It was the subject of Old Testament covenants, starting with Abraham, and was the primary focus of the four Gospels and the early chapters of Acts.
• The Body of Christ: This program was a mystery (secret) "hid in God" and "kept secret since the world began" (Rom 16:25, Eph 3:9). It was first revealed to the Apostle Paul after Israel's national rejection of the Messiah (Acts 7–9).
• Acts 7:38 (AKJV/PCE)
  (7:38) This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spoke to him in the mount Sini, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Ok, this seems now to be about Mid Acts, not what I intended but lets continue. I have to make sure I understand this, so I will ask some questions and you can help me to better understand Mid Acts.

Acts 7:37 This is the Moses who said to the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet from your brethren as he raised me up.’ 38 This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living oracles to give to us. RSV

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us. KJV

Is the Apostle Paul referred to in these two verses?

Is the word "church" in the KJV appropriate in vs 38 or is congregation, assembly, or gathering better renderings for the context of Acts 7?

--Dave

"This is he" refers to Moses in those verses.

 

[Derf]

He isn't the worst sinner. That is non-sense and that isn't what protos means. It means first. I offered up the word prototype, because it means the first of its kind. Not one of a kind. The word for that is unique.

The prototype is he is saved by faith alone.

Saul wasn't the first to persecute the body of Christ, was he?

 

[DFT_Dave]

He isn't. Protos means first. I don't speak any Greek, new or old, and I don't read it. But the information is still there. Prototype is the first of the kind. All others before Paul required faith plus works. He is the pattern.

We are to judge. How can you defend against the ravenous wolves of the religion of Christianity if you don't judge they are trying to put people under the law? Figuratively.

Who were the others that preached faith plus works before Paul?

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

"This is he" refers to Moses in those verses.

Yes, I agree. I disagree with the post that says; 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness, the word here should be gathering and not the word church because Moses is obviously way before the church.

--Dave

 

[Derf]

Yes, I agree. I disagree with the post that says; 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness, the word here should be gathering and not the word church because Moses is obviously way before the church.

--Dave

Yes, if "church" is "gathering" or "congregation", then it works fine, whether someone thinks it's the same congregation (covenentalists--unlikely) or different (mid-acts and others). That text allows for different viewpoints.

With "the church" you're assuming only ever one church. You should probably capitalize it in that case.

 

[Derf]

Who were the others that preached faith plus works before Paul?

--Dave

Peter, recounting the Cornelius episode, preached faith alone, though he didn't understand it. @JudgeRightly pointed out that it wasn't really before Paul. Abraham experienced it, and it was preached by Moses, "The just shall live by faith".

I'm answering the opposite question from yours, i suppose.

 

[DFT_Dave]

He isn't the worst sinner. That is non-sense and that isn't what protos means. It means first. I offered up the word prototype, because it means the first of its kind. Not one of a kind. The word for that is unique.

The prototype is he is saved by faith alone.

Jesus taught all his disciples that everyone is saved only through faith in him and not through works. Can you show me from scripture that Jesus taught faith plus works?

--Dave

 

[Nick M]

Saul wasn't the first to persecute the body of Christ, was he?

The Bible does not say. The 12 hid after the crucifixion for good reason. So probably not. He is the pattern for those who believe on him for everlasting life.

 

[Nick M]

Jesus taught all his disciples that everyone is saved only through faith in him and not through works. Can you show me from scripture that Jesus taught faith plus works?

Matthew 25 is clear.

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

And of course he gave the law to Moses. To keep the covenant and inherit their land they must keep the law. They will be resurrected, but not if they don't keep the law.

1Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do...23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

They even had to keep the ceremonial aspects of it. All of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. If they don't believe, they are condemned already.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[Right Divider]

My argument

Lots of claims, not so much on the "argument" side.

1. Paul is not the prototype for sin, or for the Gentile church.

Nobody made such a claim, so great job of beating up your straw-man.

A prototype means the one and only, there can only be one original.

Indeed, Paul is THE original member of the body of Christ.

A PATTERN to them which should hereafter believe on Him to life everlasting (1 Tim 1:16).

2. Paul is an example, not a pattern.

WRONG. The BIBLE says that he is THE pattern for the body of Christ.

An example is not limited to only one, there can be many who are also an example of something.

Only one is first and that is Paul.

3. Peter and the other apostles, who also went out into the Gentile world to preach the gospel, are also examples of the longsuffering of Christ.

A vague claim without a shred of support.

They preached the same Gospel, as Paul did, where ever they went.

WRONG.

They (the twelve) preached the gospel of the kingdom.
Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God (i.e., my gospel, as Paul calls it).

4. Jesus did not establish a church in Jerusalem based on fulfilling the law as opposed to the gentile church based on grace.

You are terribly confused and incorrect.

I Timothy 1:15 Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. And I am the worst of sinners; 16 but I received mercy for this reason, that in me the worst [of sinners], Jesus Christ might display his longsuffering for an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.

Stop perversely trying to correct the Bible.

 

[Right Divider]

Who were the others that preached faith plus works before Paul?

--Dave

Paul preached faith without works.

Rom 4:3-5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(4:3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4:4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (4:5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. ​

 

[DFT_Dave]

I asked "Who were the others that preached faith plus works before Paul?"

Saying, "Paul preached faith without works" is not an answer to my question.

Did Jesus preach faith plus works? Did John the Baptist, Peter, and all the rest of the apostles who came before Paul preach faith plus works?

--Dave

 

[Right Divider]

I asked "Who were the others that preached faith plus works before Paul?"

Saying, "Paul preached faith without works" is not an answer to my question.

Everyone before Paul.

Did Jesus preach faith plus works?

Absolutely!

Luke 10:25-28 (AKJV/PCE)​

(10:25) ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? (10:26) He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? (10:27) And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. (10:28) And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. ​

Did John the Baptist, Peter, and all the rest of the apostles who came before Paul preach faith plus works?

Absolutely.

Do you not have a Bible?

 

[DFT_Dave]

Everyone before Paul.

Absolutely!

Luke 10:25-28 (AKJV/PCE)​

(10:25) ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? (10:26) He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? (10:27) And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. (10:28) And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. ​

Absolutely.

Do you not have a Bible?

So, you probably believe loving "the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength" is a work.

If that is what you are saying then we don't have love God in order to be a Christian. In fact we could also say loving God is a work and is therefore a bad thing because it is adding works to your salvation, that means you're not a Christian.

--Dave

 

[Idolater]

I found the following on a church's statement of faith: "Christ commands His followers to rebuke and to judge with righteous judgment and to forgive those who repent. One day God will resurrect the dead, punish the unbelievers and reward those whom He has justified with the life of the world to come."

Many believe there is a distinction between judgment and to judge. "Judgment (noun) is the cognitive process of forming an opinion, discernment, or the result of a decision, often based on facts and critical thinking. To judge (verb) is the act of condemning" [verbally not just to punish] and I would add rebuking and possibly shaming. Given these definitions, would you affirm or oppose the given statement of faith? Do you believe it is the role of the church to judge (verb) or not? I will argue the church is not to judge and that the statement of faith is flawed.

$$ 1Co 5:11
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
$$ 1Co 5:12
For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
$$ 1Co 5:13
But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

 

[Right Divider]

So, you probably believe loving "the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength" is a work.

It was required for Israel by law.

If that is what you are saying then we don't have love God in order to be a Christian.

We are not required, BY LAW, to do so. We do it anyway.

In fact we could also say loving God is a work and is therefore a bad thing because it is adding works to your salvation, that means you're not a Christian.

Are you just playing dumb, or are you really that confused?

 

[DFT_Dave]

It was required for Israel by law.

We are not required, BY LAW, to do so. We do it anyway.

Are you just playing dumb, or are you really that confused?

You're being vague. In your view, is loving God a work or not? Yes or no will do.

--Dave

 

[Right Divider]

You're being vague. In your view, is loving God a work or not? Yes or no will do.

--Dave

It was REQUIRED by Israel under the law.
It is not REQUIRED of us that are not under the law.

I don't know or care whether you consider it a work or not.

I've already demonstrated that Jesus taught them (Israel), that they were required to have faith and works. What exactly is your problem with that?

 

[DFT_Dave]

It was REQUIRED by Israel under the law.
It is not REQUIRED of us that are not under the law.

I don't know or care whether you consider it a work or not.

I've already demonstrated that Jesus taught them (Israel), that they were required to have faith and works. What exactly is your problem with that?

I want to know what "you" believe. Is loving God a work or not? Can we be saved by faith without loving God.

Based on what you are saying I would conclude that we do not have to love God, it's "not required" according to you. If it's not required then we don't have to do it.

Can anyone say, "I don't love God" but I will still have eternal life because I am saved through faith?

Ephesians 2:8 For by [God's] grace you are saved through [your] faith [in Christ]; and that not of yourselves: it [salvation] is the gift of God: 9 Not of [your] works, lest any man should boast.

Is faith in Ephesians a work?

Does works here mean "Jewish ceremonial law" only and not the Ten Commandments?

--Dave