Christology

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Aner

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Not a new subject obviously - but I believe most will find the following a new question -

If the Logos did not incarnate in the that human "thing" that was conceived and born of Mary, wife of Joseph, would that human "thing" be fully functional??

Likewise - who cried and who learned obedience in Heb 5:7ff... ?? Was it the human person or the human nature?!?

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jerzy

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If the Logos did not incarnate in the that human "thing" that was conceived and born of Mary, wife of Joseph, would that human "thing" be fully functional??

Aner

On what account you capitalised the word “logos”? On account of Isa 55:11 to which undoubtedly John refers to in Jn 1?

Or on account of the “logos” of God given to King David as recorded in 2Sam 7:12? This “logos” was fulfilled according to Peter (Ac 2:30) and Paul (Ac 13:23).
 
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jerzy

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Does this ring a bell?

The reason our Bibles translate logos as word is that Jerome, a monk of the early fifth century, mistranslated it as verbum. Jerome’s Vulgate, as it is called, became the official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church, and the texts Jerome used have become the mainstay of contemporary liberal versions. The Latin term Verbum became Word in English.

http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=255.

Wow!!!!

Isn't this what the Trinitarians say?

Or this?

The entire superstructure of the Vatican system is built on sinking sand . . . and not on the Rock of Ages....Every corrupt practice and doctrine can be traced back to the Latin Vulgate of Jerome.
In 382, Jerome was commissioned by Pope Damasus to revise the popular Latin translation of the Bible in use since at least 150 A.D.
Eventually, his perversion replaced the Old Latin Version.
It was called the Latin Vulgate and became the official version of the Vatican and the foundation of all their damnable heresies.
The Council of Trent condemns every other translation of the Bible except for the Latin Vulgate:

http://www.reformation.org/latin-vulgate-unmasked.html

Please bear in mind that it took place just after the Trinity God doctrine was completed (began in 325 as two "Gods", declared unbiblical in 351 & the third "God" added in 382). Thus Jerome was tasked the same year with cooking of the “proof”.

So this is exactly why you the Trinitarians worship two man-made “Gods” instead of the Father the only one true God.
 
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Lazy afternoon

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Not a new subject obviously - but I believe most will find the following a new question -

If the Logos did not incarnate in the that human "thing" that was conceived and born of Mary, wife of Joseph, would that human "thing" be fully functional??

Likewise - who cried and who learned obedience in Heb 5:7ff... ?? Was it the human person or the human nature?!?

Aner

No scripture says the word incarnated.

The overshadowing of Mary by the Holy Spirit also occured in the scriptures,(OT) and no word incarnated, but life was.

You do not know the reference so go look for it before claiming such a thing as incarnation to be true.

LA
 

oatmeal

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Not a new subject obviously - but I believe most will find the following a new question -

If the Logos did not incarnate in the that human "thing" that was conceived and born of Mary, wife of Joseph, would that human "thing" be fully functional??

Likewise - who cried and who learned obedience in Heb 5:7ff... ?? Was it the human person or the human nature?!?

Aner

Aner,

Grace and peace,

Your first question could be simplified for those who like plain talk.

Your second question, Jesus Christ, who is a man, learned obedience.

oatmeal
 

Jason0047

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Hebrews 5:8 does say that Jesus "learned obedience through what he suffered." But anyone who has made any comparisons knows that the same Epistle also depicts Jesus as perfectly obedient from the moment of his conception: "When Christ came into the world, he said: Sacrifices and offerings thou hast not desired, but a body hast thou prepared for me ... Then I said: Lo, I have come to do thy will, O God." So it is evident at the outset that Jesus could not have had to learn obedience in his human will: it was the theme of his life from the start. What then does Hebrew 5:8 mean?

Well, just as a person who has long been devoted to the will of God, but now for the first time finds himself in great physical suffering, from cancer, needs to have his bodily side learn to acquiesce, to settle down in suffering, so it was with the bodily, not the spiritual side of Jesus.

Another example would be that despite all the knowledge about His native language, in order for Christ to get his tongue and vocal organs used to forming the sounds-that again needed practice. In fact, the Scriptures say that the flesh has desires (Galatians 5:16). This implies that your body has a mind. So it was the mind or abilities of the physical body that needed to catch up with the Spirit of Christ.

In other words, suppose Christ had met a Chinaman: could he have talked with him? Well, the same principles will solve the question for us now too. For Christ's knowledge gave his human intellect full knowledge of the Chinese language. But his vocal equipment would normally need practice. Divine power could have made up for the lack of that practice. But would it have done so? Now, some have suggested that Christ had acted in obedience as a man because He gave up some of His divinity. For they believe that Christ emptied of himself (A portion of His divinity, but not all) in heaven (Philippians 2:7 HCSB). However, I believe this is based upon the corruption within modern translations or a wrong theological thought that Jesus was not 100% God. For such a model is incompatible with the miracle narratives as proofs of his messianic claims. For an emptying of himself, would mean Jesus gave up being God! Therefore, Christ could not lay claim to working miracles in addition to the Father. For God cannot stop being God.

And yet other modern translations translate Philippians 2:7 as the giving up of divine privileges like the NLT states. Which would be a little closer to the truth but not exactly correct: For Jesus did not give up His divine abilities or privileges in being God, but He resolved to not to use his divine power for his own comfort. Hence He considered it a temptation to be asked to change stones to bread in the desert. But He would use that power freely for the sake of others, like in the healing of the sick.

What then of the Chinaman: Would Jesus have called on his divine power to provide the missing facility to let him speak to the Chinaman? I am inclined to think He would have, for that would have been for the benefit of the soul of another, not for His own comfort.
 
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Lazy afternoon

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This might help you.


Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Jesus was born as a pure spirited human being.

Jesus was made like His brethren.

Jesus grew in wisdom.

Jesus was not a freak of creation plus.

God entered Jesus after His baptism by John.

Gods Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit fathered Jesus but did not enter Him there at the conception or birth of Jesus.

God through the Holy Spirit of truth prepared Jesus to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit of His Father who did the works and told Jesus what to say and do.

May the Grace of God be upon you and in your heart as you read His word and give you understanding.

LA
 

Jason0047

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Anyways, to continue...

So what bodily part of Christ cried? The nature of the body or the body itself?

Well, to address our Human nature: we know that the Scriptures repeatedly tell us that mankind has a sin nature. I believe this sin nature is a combination of a fallen spirit and a body that can draw us into lusting after the flesh. However, that does not mean the body does not have good desires like wanting to be fueled properly by eating the right foods and getting the proper sleep.

As for the body: Well, the physical body can learn to do certain things very quickly by an automatic function like expressing emotion. So crying would fall under this category. For you do not have to teach your human nature or the mind of your body to cry. It just cries automatically as a part of your being. For it is not a skill that you had to learn.

So what bodily part of Christ learned obedience thru suffering? The nature of the body or the body itself?

I believe in this case it would be both the human nature and the body itself that learned obedience thru suffering. Again, the Spirit of Christ (Who is God) did not learn anything new about suffering and obedience but it was his body or the human flesh that learned.

How so? Well, I know that my body must learn to suffer in working out and eating healthy foods every day in order to train my body to a point of habit. In other words, once my body is used to suffering long enough for a specific goal or purpose it can actually get stronger and give me more energy and get accustomed to following that pattern of obedience. So essentially, with enough exercise or suffering, my body will be trained to crave or obey it's task on a continual basis.

In a similar way, the Spirit of Christ suffered in the flesh of a man and trained the body to obey in it's suffering to the cross. A Son who became the author of our eternal salvation by teaching his own body to be crucified against it's own affections and lusts. So the actual body or the flesh of the man (including the body's mind or it's human nature) learned in suffering and not the Word or the Spirit of Christ.

In fact, we as Christians are admonished to do this very thing with our flesh as well.

Galatians 5:24-26 - "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another."

For the only way we as Christians can teach our flesh to be crucified against it's own lusts and desires and bring it into obedience is by living and walking in the Spirit.

Side Note:

Oh, and if anyone is interested...

#1. I responded to "the Son" not knowing of His return issue for you here...
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3331707&postcount=133
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3139487&postcount=3548

#2. Here is a response to Father Only knows of Jesus' return issue here...
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3140542&postcount=3616

#3. And here is a response to Jesus growing in wisdom issue that I answered for you here, too...
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3140365&postcount=3597
 
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Jason0047

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Actually, J.B. Phillips New Testament translation gives us a more modernized up to date translation so we can understand this passage in Hebrews a little better.

Hebrews 5:8-9 PHILLIPS - "He had to prove the meaning of obedience through all that he suffered. Then, when he had been proved the perfect Son, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who should obey him."

In other words, Christ the Spirit did not learn obedience or anything new because He is God, but He had to prove the meaning of obedience by suffering in the flesh so that He could be an example or a model for us in an attempt to inspire us to bring our own bodies in subjection by suffering for His sake (i.e. by crucifying our lusts and desires for the sake of Christ).

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews 5:8&version=PHILLIPS
 
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Lazy afternoon

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Actually, J.B. Phillips New Testament translation gives us a more modernized up to date translation so we can understand this passage in Hebrews a little better.

Hebrews 5:8-9 PHILLIPS - "He had to prove the meaning of obedience through all that he suffered. Then, when he had been proved the perfect Son, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who should obey him."

In other words, Christ the Spirit did not learn obedience or anything new because He is God, but He had to prove the meaning of obedience by suffering in the flesh so that He could be an example or a model for us in an attempt to inspire us to bring our own bodies in subjection by suffering for His sake (i.e. by crucifying our lusts and desires for the sake of Christ).

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews 5:8&version=PHILLIPS

So you think it was only Jesus body crying out to His Father to save Him from death??

Dividing up the man into parts is an idea from Platonists.

LA
 

Jason0047

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Hebrews 5:8-9 KJV - "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Christ was not being made perfect. He was perfect. Christ was being made as a perfect high priest by offering himself as a sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 8:3) whereby he became the author of our salvation if we obey and suffer for his name sake.

So just as we suffer and obey Christ for His name sake, Christ was a Son like unto a Father who had to learn obedience in suffering. This was a model or type. For the Father declared that Christ was His begotten Son (Hebrews 5:5). This does not mean that Christ was actually born out of the Father spiritually (Also see note below). For God had always existed as one God in three persons and He changes not (1 John 5:7) (Psalm 90:2) (Malachi 3:6). For the use of the words "Father" and the "Son" are not only names of the persons of God, but they are also a type or a model for us to understand the parallel of the loving relationship between a human father and a human son. That there are times when a human son has to suffer in obedience to their human father because he loves and respects him. For a son will learn in obedience just as we can learn in obedience to Christ. For Christ is our everlasting Father, our might God, our wonderful counselor, and our prince of peace (Isaiah 9:6).

Side Note:

Now, it is true that Christ was begotten of the Father in the fact that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit. For God had to redeem us thru the flesh of a man to pay the price for our sins. This is why the Father sent the Son down from Heaven into the flesh of a man named Jesus.
 
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Jason0047

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So you think it was only Jesus body crying out to His Father to save Him from death??

Dividing up the man into parts is an idea from Platonists.

Dear LA:

Why did Jesus say "My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?"

Well, for one, there is a big difference between making an assertion and asking a question. Secondly, Jesus was referencing Scripture as a fulfillment of prophecy (Psalm 22:1). Thirdly, Jesus also said these words as if it was you and me in His place saying these words. For He was taking on our sins and our punishment as a substitution.

In fact, when look at Psalm 22, we can see that the response to the first verse where the psalmist cries out the prophetic words, "Why have you forsaken me?" there is an answer in verse 24. Here's the answer to the question of Jesus, the question of the psalmist and the question of every person who has ever felt abandoned by the Father: For he (God the Father) has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.

Sin may deafen our ears to the answer, but the reality is that the Father has never and will never despise, disdain or turn His face away from us, forsaking us (if we are seeking His forgiveness). For He has heard our cry for help!

God the Father forsaking His own Son? Impossible! God the Father was "in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself" (2 Corinthians 5:19)! On the surface, it appears that the words of Jesus had shown that He might have felt abandoned at the time. It seemed like the Father had forsaken Him, but He hadn't! Nor will He ever forsake you (if you have a broken heart before Him).

But what about the "God cannot look upon sin" part? Doesn't the Bible say that? Well, it does but we need to put that comment in context. It was Habakkuk the prophet who said that as he watched evil people seemingly getting away with their sins. Here's the whole quote in context:

"Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong. Why then do you tolerate the treacherous? Why are you silent while the wicked swallow up those more righteous than themselves?" ~ (Habakkuk 1:13)

To paraphrase him, Habakkuk said, "Your eyes are too pure to look on evil and you can't tolerate wrong so why are you?" In other words, it made no sense to Habakkuk that God was looking on sin when Habakkuk believed that wasn't possible. He was smearing the face of God with the guilt and shame of humanity the same way Adam had done when he hid himself in the Garden of Eden because He thought God wouldn't want to look at him after he sinned. Adam was wrong. God came for His walk that day just as He had every day. And Habakkuk was wrong too.

I hope this helps.

And may God bless you, my friend.

With loving kindness to you in Christ:

Sincerely,

~Jason.



...
 
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jerzy

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Christ was not being made perfect. He was perfect.

Hi Jason.

You don't seem to bother what God says but merely trying to justify the Trinitarian blasphemy somehow referring to few texts rendered out of the entire biblical context by the Trinitarians.

Jesus was toughed to fear God amongst few things:

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
 

Jason0047

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Hi Jason.

You don't seem to bother what God says but merely trying to justify the Trinitarian blasphemy somehow referring to few texts rendered out of the entire biblical context by the Trinitarians.

Jesus was toughed to fear God amongst few things:

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

Dear J:

For one, Jesus Christ never showed the type of fear of the Lord where He repented like a man. For Jesus Christ never repented of His sins; And you would be hard pressed to find a verse that says that He did. For this type of fear described here in Isaiah chapter 11 is a reverence of God and not a Godly fear of turning from one's sins. In fact, the Scriptures say that Jesus had no sin.

2 Corinthians 5:21 - "For he has made him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

In other words, Christ had no sin, because He was God just as much as the Father was God; For Christ was one with the Father (John 10:30) and He was worshiped by men (Matthew 9:18) (Matthew 14:33) (Matthew 15:25) (Matthew 28:9) (Matthew 28:17) (Luke 24:51-53) (John 9:35-38) and He was worthy to be worshiped by angels (Hebrews 1:6-8).
 
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Aner

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@Jason

Here is why I am troubled by your statements

1.
In other words, Christ had no sin, because He was God just as much as the Father was God;
>> Not much of a role model for a man or mankind then is He?

2.
For Christ was one with the Father (John 10:30)
>> In what sense was He one with the Father - how does He interpret the sense of what He is saying?

3.
He was worshiped by men (Matthew 9:18) (Matthew 14:33) (Matthew 15:25) (Matthew 28:9) (Matthew 28:17) (Luke 24:51-53) (John 9:35-38)
>> Maybe a brief review of men being worshipped might help here?? Somewhere say in Rev 3 or so?
 

Aner

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This is why the Father sent the Son down from Heaven into the flesh of a man named Jesus.

@ Jason - Are you saying the person of the divine Son inhabited another person - the Man Jesus - such that there are two persons???
 

Lazy afternoon

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@ Jason - Are you saying the person of the divine Son inhabited another person - the Man Jesus - such that there are two persons???

As best I can tell, the Trinitarian believes the word was a person in Heaven who took on an outward body of Man through Mary, so that only the flesh part of Jesus was related to King David.

It came from Platonic philosophy, not from Hebrew thought, in that of cutting up man and God into sections, each having a particular function.

LA
 
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