Catholicism and the Bible

Right Divider

Body part
I posted some scriptures in a previous post to you.I don't disagree with any of that. There is a relationship between authentic pastors and Christ's teachings, is all I'm saying, and so there is a relationship between the Church's pastors and Christ, the Head of the Body of Christ.
I think that's a good parallel. Besides that 'pastor' itself comes from the shepherding vocation. Hebrews 13, "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus (2Ti2:8KJV), that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant (1Co11:25KJV), 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you (Php2:13KJV) that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."
Paul is that other, different apostle. He was called by the RISEN and ASCENDED LORD Jesus Christ and given a dispensation of the gospel.
Paul was NEVER under the authority of ANY other man on the earth.

Paul wrote 13 epistles.
In Paul's epistles:

  • Paul NEVER calls Jesus a shepherd.
  • Paul NEVER calls believers sheep.
  • Paul NEVER uses the words "priest" or "priesthood".
Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God as God commissioned him to.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
I somewhat agree with the position. Pastor is a scriptural church office but I believe there is a little more to the hierarchy of the church.
Oh, I . . . of course, I also believe there's more to it than just bishops-and-non-bishops, which is the only absolutely plain hierarchy in the Body of Christ. Acts shows us the beginning not only of bishops, but of deacons, who at first were the assistants to the bishops, and helped the bishops with things that weren't their primary duties, which is teaching and administrating the Church, including ensuring that Mass (Acts2:42KJV) was occurring validly/properly, especially the Eucharist (1Co11:26KJV), which was celebrated every Sunday, every Mass.

The deacons assisted the bishops with other things. Priests today are the assistants of the bishops in their teaching (Liturgy of the Word, RCIA, others) and priestly duties (Liturgy of the Eucharist, others). Bishops today now even have auxiliary bishops as assistants, in order to celebrate sacraments requiring a bishop, such as confirmation, in many different parishes throughout the year, without building a backlog.

A bishop must therefore ensure that the men that he has assisting him in the bishop's sacred/holy duty to administrate the Church, and to teach the Christian truth, are worthy of this sacred/holy duty. So priests are ordained by the imposition of hands, the hands of bishops, who ordain priests. An ordained priest must be in full communion with his bishop, he must teach what his bishop teaches, and never contrary to it, in a matter of faith and/or morals.

And each bishop must teach just the same as the guy who's currently holding Peter's Roman pastorate, called variously the Vatican, the Holy See, the See of Rome, the pope, the papacy, the popes, the patriarch of Rome, the bishop of Rome, the archbishop of Rome. And the current 'Catechism of the Catholic Church' is specifically written to all the bishops, and it was signed by the pope at that time John Paul II. He had it written and published, and signed it, and it's addressed to the bishops.
Text 11, 'Catechism of the Catholic Church' ('CCC')

This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church's Tradition.


Text 12, ibid

This work is intended primarily for those responsible for catechesis: first of all the bishops, as teachers of the faith and pastors of the Church. It is offered to them as an instrument in fulfilling their responsibility of teaching the People of God.

All the papacy's infallible teachings are in the 'Catechism.' They are all in matters of faith and morals. And they are all Apostolic in their origin, either something one or more of the Apostles taught, by either word of mouth, or by writing, or by both; or something one or more of the Apostles approved of, that was said or written by somebody else, such as, for example, the Gospel of Luke, or of Mark.

The 'Catechism' is John Paul II's submission in doing his duty as Peter's successor, to ensure that everybody is all on the same page, wrt teaching matters of faith and morals. He had the bishops, the diocesan bishops (these are the biblical bishops), and all his auxiliary bishops (the diocesan bishops' assistants who are also bishops), in mind, when he presided over the construction of the 'Catechism.' He wanted every bishop to teach all of their priests the 'Catechism,' and for all clergy to assent to every infallible teaching on faith and morals, to effect a greater unity in the Church.

The papacy's infallible teachings are infallible because they are the Apostles' own teachings, they are guaranteed to be, and the Apostles' own teachings, are the very teachings of Christ Himself. That is why it is so important that the Church is 'Apostolic,' as is found in the ancient creeds.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Paul is that other, different apostle. He was called by the RISEN and ASCENDED LORD Jesus Christ and given a dispensation of the gospel.
Paul was NEVER under the authority of ANY other man on the earth.

Paul wrote 13 epistles.
In Paul's epistles:

  • Paul NEVER calls Jesus a shepherd.
  • Paul NEVER calls believers sheep.
  • Paul NEVER uses the words "priest" or "priesthood".
Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God as God commissioned him to.
Yes, and Paul preached the Eucharist in 1st Corinthians 11, which the Lord Jesus instituted at the Last Supper, and foreshadowed in the feeding of the five thousand.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Yes, and Paul preached the Eucharist in 1st Corinthians 11, which the Lord Jesus instituted at the Last Supper, and foreshadowed in the feeding of the five thousand.
That's ALL that you can say?

No, Paul did not continue what the twelve did.

Paul is that other, different apostle who was NEVER under the authority of ANY OTHER MAN on earth.

Paul's only authority is the RISEN and ASCENDED LORD Jesus Christ.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
That's ALL that you can say?

No, Paul did not continue what the twelve did.
What is your explanation for why Paul instructs Gentiles on the Eucharist?
Paul is that other, different apostle
Are 'other' and 'different' quotes from Scripture?
who was NEVER under the authority of ANY OTHER MAN on earth.

Paul's only authority is the RISEN and ASCENDED LORD Jesus Christ.
That's the same for all the Apostles. The Church is under their authority, and they each only taught what the Lord Jesus commanded them to teach. And the bishops are our living guarantee that we today are taught those same things that the Apostles taught, with the teaching authority of Christ Himself, and through the Spirit of truth which came to them in a unique way, guaranteeing that the Apostles only taught what they were authorized to teach. John 15:26 KJV John 16:13 KJV
 

Right Divider

Body part
What is your explanation for why Paul instructs Gentiles on the Eucharist?
Start a new thread. That topic deserves its own.

Are 'other' and 'different' quotes from Scripture?
Is 'Eucharist' a quote from scripture?

That's the same for all the Apostles. The Church is under their authority, and they each only taught what the Lord Jesus commanded them to teach.
Paul was NEVER under the authority of ANY of the twelve apostles for the twelve tribes of Israel.

And the bishops are our living guarantee that we today are taught those same things that the Apostles taught, with the teaching authority of Christ Himself, and through the Spirit of truth which came to them in a unique way, guaranteeing that the Apostles only taught what they were authorized to teach. John 15:26 KJV John 16:13 KJV
TODAY, we have the COMPLETED BIBLE (Col 1:25) and the HOLY SPIRIT (1 Cor 2:13). We do not need your BOGUS organization.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Start a new thread. That topic deserves its own.


Is 'Eucharist' a quote from scripture?
It's a transliteration of the Greek word for 'thanksgiving,' which is found throughout the New Testament.
Paul was NEVER under the authority of ANY of the twelve apostles for the twelve tribes of Israel.
The Apostles were under the authority of Christ.
TODAY, we have the COMPLETED BIBLE (Col 1:25)
We do, but Colossians 1:25 KJV doesn't mention that.
and the HOLY SPIRIT (1 Cor 2:13).
We are, if we listen to those whom the Holy Spirit preserved from ever teaching error, the Apostles. That's the "we" in, "Things we also speak..." (1Co2:13KJV). Confer 1st John 4:6 KJV; "we" and "us." "Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error," by listening to the Apostles, to whom was given the Spirit of truth in unprecedented and unrivaled measure, to teach the truth.
We do not need your BOGUS organization.
Not to know what the Apostles taught, you're right about that. We have the 'Catechism of the Catholic Church,' in print, and online for free.
 

Right Divider

Body part
It's a transliteration of the Greek word for 'thanksgiving,' which is found throughout the New Testament.
The point was that a specific word does not need to be in scripture for the CONCEPT to be in scripture.

Your vain attempt to exclude the uniqueness of Paul's ministry is a FAIL on your part.

The Apostles were under the authority of Christ.
Indeed, they were. So I repeat, PAUL was NEVER under the authority of your supposed first pope nor any other man on earth.

We do, but Colossians 1:25 KJV doesn't mention that.
Of course it does. The fact that you cannot understand the scripture does not change its absolute authority in ALL matters of faith and practice.

We are, if we listen to those whom the Holy Spirit preserved from ever teaching error, the Apostles.
Please feel free to support THAT conjecture with some SCRIPTURE.

That's the "we" in, "Things we also speak..." (1Co2:13KJV). Confer 1st John 4:6 KJV; "we" and "us." "Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error," by listening to the Apostles,
John was ONE of the TWELVE apostles for the TWELVE tribes of Israel and as such wrote scripture from the perspective of THEIR ministry. Paul was NOT one of the TWELVE and was called by God with a UNIQUE ministry and HIS OWN authority from the RISEN and ASCENDED LORD Jesus Christ.

to whom was given the Spirit of truth in unprecedented and unrivaled measure, to teach the truth.
Pompous words from a religious zealot that prefers man-made doctrines over God's doctrines.

Not to know what the Apostles taught, you're right about that. We have the 'Catechism of the Catholic Church,' in print, and online for free.
That is a piece of garbage whether in print or online.
 

turbosixx

New member
Oh, I . . . of course, I also believe there's more to it than just bishops-and-non-bishops, which is the only absolutely plain hierarchy in the Body of Christ. Acts shows us the beginning not only of bishops, but of deacons, who at first were the assistants to the bishops, and helped the bishops with things that weren't their primary duties, which is teaching and administrating the Church, including ensuring that Mass (Acts2:42KJV) was occurring validly/properly, especially the Eucharist (1Co11:26KJV), which was celebrated every Sunday, every Mass.

The deacons assisted the bishops with other things. Priests today are the assistants of the bishops in their teaching (Liturgy of the Word, RCIA, others) and priestly duties (Liturgy of the Eucharist, others). Bishops today now even have auxiliary bishops as assistants, in order to celebrate sacraments requiring a bishop, such as confirmation, in many different parishes throughout the year, without building a backlog.

A bishop must therefore ensure that the men that he has assisting him in the bishop's sacred/holy duty to administrate the Church, and to teach the Christian truth, are worthy of this sacred/holy duty. So priests are ordained by the imposition of hands, the hands of bishops, who ordain priests. An ordained priest must be in full communion with his bishop, he must teach what his bishop teaches, and never contrary to it, in a matter of faith and/or morals.

And each bishop must teach just the same as the guy who's currently holding Peter's Roman pastorate, called variously the Vatican, the Holy See, the See of Rome, the pope, the papacy, the popes, the patriarch of Rome, the bishop of Rome, the archbishop of Rome. And the current 'Catechism of the Catholic Church' is specifically written to all the bishops, and it was signed by the pope at that time John Paul II. He had it written and published, and signed it, and it's addressed to the bishops.
All the papacy's infallible teachings are in the 'Catechism.' They are all in matters of faith and morals. And they are all Apostolic in their origin, either something one or more of the Apostles taught, by either word of mouth, or by writing, or by both; or something one or more of the Apostles approved of, that was said or written by somebody else, such as, for example, the Gospel of Luke, or of Mark.

The 'Catechism' is John Paul II's submission in doing his duty as Peter's successor, to ensure that everybody is all on the same page, wrt teaching matters of faith and morals. He had the bishops, the diocesan bishops (these are the biblical bishops), and all his auxiliary bishops (the diocesan bishops' assistants who are also bishops), in mind, when he presided over the construction of the 'Catechism.' He wanted every bishop to teach all of their priests the 'Catechism,' and for all clergy to assent to every infallible teaching on faith and morals, to effect a greater unity in the Church.

The papacy's infallible teachings are infallible because they are the Apostles' own teachings, they are guaranteed to be, and the Apostles' own teachings, are the very teachings of Christ Himself. That is why it is so important that the Church is 'Apostolic,' as is found in the ancient creeds.

Do you agree that elder and bishop are the same office? The Greek word used for bishop is the word for shepherd. That is the is the duty of an elder/bishop to shepherd the flock.
1 Pt. 5:1 So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: 2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly;

If we agree, what criteria does the church use to appoint elders/bishops?
 

turbosixx

New member
It is also the single, solitary time that it appears in Paul's epistles.

Do you think that maybe some put too much emphasis on it?

My personal opinion is that the one many call as their pastor is not really a pastor but an evangelist. Correct me if I'm wrong but I understand pastor to be an elder.

1 Pt. 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;


Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Do you agree that elder and bishop are the same office?
Yeah I think it all means 'authentic pastor.'

'Bishop,' 'elder,' 'pastor,' I think are all fair words, and also 'presbyter' and 'priest.'
The Greek word used for bishop is the word for shepherd. That is the is the duty of an elder/bishop to shepherd the flock.
Agreed, and that is what our Lord told the Church's first supreme pastor Peter, in John 21:15-17 KJV.

And speak of the devil: it's what Peter tells other authentic pastors, right in 1st Peter, he talks to other authentic pastors, as a fellow authentic pastor himself...
1 Pt. 5:1 So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: 2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly;
Yes, exactly, he tells them to feed us. "Shepherd the flock." And note that word 'oversight' there, that word relates to 'overseer,' which is another synonym for an authentic pastor.
If we agree, what criteria does the church use to appoint elders/bishops?
The bishops have a 'farm system,' where ordained priests, vowed to celibacy, teach the faith, and administrate a parish community church. No one is ever created a bishop without having been a priest for many years, but of course, when the Apostles made men bishops directly, through the imposition of their own hands, there was no 'farm system,' the office of 'priest,' who assist the bishops in their sacred duties, wasn't distinct from 'bishop' in the New Testament. Bishops weren't immediately recognized as a high office in a hierarchy, but just a single office, compared to the faithful, who hold no Church office. There are Church officers, and there are the rest of the Church. At first, there were 'bishops,' who were the Church officers, and everybody else, who were not Church officers. The Apostles didn't have the luxury of a farm system to identify good candidates for bishop, the bishops they consecrated became bishops 'just like that,' and they were immediately responsible for part of the flock, as soon as they were ordained.

The criteria would be, is he doing a good job being parish priest? If he's not 'bishop material,' then he can still be a priest. He can't scandalize the Church, and drag our Lord's name through the muck
 

turbosixx

New member
The bishops have a 'farm system,' where ordained priests, vowed to celibacy, teach the faith, and administrate a parish community church. No one is ever created a bishop without having been a priest for many years, but of course, when the Apostles made men bishops directly, through the imposition of their own hands, there was no 'farm system,' the office of 'priest,' who assist the bishops in their sacred duties, wasn't distinct from 'bishop' in the New Testament. Bishops weren't immediately recognized as a high office in a hierarchy, but just a single office, compared to the faithful, who hold no Church office. There are Church officers, and there are the rest of the Church. At first, there were 'bishops,' who were the Church officers, and everybody else, who were not Church officers. The Apostles didn't have the luxury of a farm system to identify good candidates for bishop, the bishops they consecrated became bishops 'just like that,' and they were immediately responsible for part of the flock, as soon as they were ordained.

The criteria would be, is he doing a good job being parish priest? If he's not 'bishop material,' then he can still be a priest. He can't scandalize the Church, and drag our Lord's name through the muck

Thanks for the explanation. What scriptures would you use to support this system?
 

Idolater

"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Thanks for the explanation. What scriptures would you use to support this system?
The creation of the diaconate (the office of deacon) was recorded for us right in Acts. The priesthood is a similar office. Both deacons and priests are assisting the authentic pastors.

I'm sorry there isn't a biblical account of the beginning of the priesthood. The major distinction between priests and bishops, is the authority to ordain new priests and bishops. Only bishops can ordain priests, priests cannot ordain anybody. This makes it so that the priests are authorized to act on their bishops' behalf in the administration of the Church wrt teaching and celebrating the sacraments of reconciliation and the Eucharist especially, the Eucharist being seen as the center of Church life, around which everything else revolves; and at the same time limiting their power so that only bishops ordain new clergy.

Without priests, every parish would need their own bishop, which would bloat the college of bishops up from under 10,000 worldwide today, to something like 400,000 instead. And as I indicated, the priesthood serves as a 'minor league' or 'farm system' for potential bishops as well.

It is a pattern in the Orthodox churches as well, with the offices both of bishop, and of the priesthood, where Orthodox priests assist their bishops in much the same way as in the Catholic Church.
 

Tambora

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Per Rome's own declaration it cannot be biblical:

Council of Trent Session 7, 1547
Canon 8. If anyone says that by the sacraments of the New Law grace is not conferred ex opere operato, but that faith alone in the divine promise is sufficient to obtain grace, let him be anathema.

Denying justification by faith alone places Rome outside the camp.
Agreed.
 

turbosixx

New member
The creation of the diaconate (the office of deacon) was recorded for us right in Acts. The priesthood is a similar office. Both deacons and priests are assisting the authentic pastors.

I'm sorry there isn't a biblical account of the beginning of the priesthood. The major distinction between priests and bishops, is the authority to ordain new priests and bishops. Only bishops can ordain priests, priests cannot ordain anybody. This makes it so that the priests are authorized to act on their bishops' behalf in the administration of the Church wrt teaching and celebrating the sacraments of reconciliation and the Eucharist especially, the Eucharist being seen as the center of Church life, around which everything else revolves; and at the same time limiting their power so that only bishops ordain new clergy.

Without priests, every parish would need their own bishop, which would bloat the college of bishops up from under 10,000 worldwide today, to something like 400,000 instead. And as I indicated, the priesthood serves as a 'minor league' or 'farm system' for potential bishops as well.

It is a pattern in the Orthodox churches as well, with the offices both of bishop, and of the priesthood, where Orthodox priests assist their bishops in much the same way as in the Catholic Church.

What scriptures would you use to support the qualifications of pastors?
 
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