Can Christians Sin?

aCultureWarrior

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
That's what I said, you moron. You really are an idiot. ALL unbelievers MUST repent from not believing in Christ, TO believing in Christ. Jesus died for our sins, you brain dead pervert, not for our unbelief.

I guess being called a moron and idiot is a step up from you calling me a homosexual child molester huh? (I love stepping on rainbow colored toes).

Regarding repentance: You only believe that acknowledging Jesus's sacrifice on the cross is enough for eternal salvation. We've been through this before so there is no need to further discuss that a change of heart, mind AND actions complete the act of repentance.

You know, if you embraced the truth and quit living a lie, all of that anger that you have built up inside of you will go away.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Regarding repentance: You only believe that acknowledging Jesus's sacrifice on the cross is enough for eternal salvation.
Believing the gospel is enough. You don't. I'll move on.

no need to further discuss that a change of heart, mind AND actions complete the act of repentance
Why would anyone want to "discuss" a lie? There is no Biblical support for your claim that someone must repent from their actions to be saved. You made that up. It's a false gospel. The apostle Paul says that those who teach what you teach are to be accursed (eternally damned).
 

aCultureWarrior

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Believing the gospel is enough. You don't. I'll move on.

Why would anyone want to "discuss" a lie? There is no Biblical support for your claim that someone must repent from their actions to be saved. You made that up. It's a false gospel. The apostle Paul says that those who teach what you teach are to be accursed (eternally damned).
James 2: 14-26. I'm sure you'll attempt to twist that passage just as you do others.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
James 2: 14-26. I'm sure you'll attempt to twist that passage just as you do others.
Already had this discussion. No "twisting" necessary. It's really simple to understand, but not for you.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" James 2:22

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth". Hebrews 11:13

Those who had faith in God, in the Old Testament, were looking forward to the promise. The works that they did were the result of the faith they had in the One whom God was sending, namely Christ. Noah built the ark having faith in the coming promise. Abraham knew that even if he killed his son, that God was able to raise him from the dead in order that the promise would be fulfilled. Even though many in the OT did not receive the promise, by faith they looked forward to it. Today, we believe in the promise fulfilled.

Jesus was asked by the multitudes… "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." (John 6:28-29). In other words, it is His work that we believe in His Son. This is His way (believing), by which we are saved.

Today, our faith is in the finished work of Jesus Christ. His work is finished.

Through Christ, God has made it possible for us to be saved by grace through faith, apart from our works. We are His workmanship. We are His good works, which God before ordained (prepared beforehand). We now walk, by faith, in His finished/completed works, that were fulfilled in Christ. We inherit the promise (life), having believed the Gospel. This is God's way. It is the only way.

"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him" Col 2:6

Believers are those who walk the very same way they received Him, not by works, but by grace through faith.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
OZOS said;

According to God's word, believers cannot walk in darkness.

“I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” - The Lord Jesus Christ

Jerry Shugart claims that Jesus is a "liar".


Why do you pevertt the scriptutes every chance you get? the verse says that "those who follow"the Lord Jesus will not walk in darkness. It does not say that believers cannot walk in darkness. if a believer is following Christ then he is walking after the Spirit so he will not sin but if he begins to walk after the flesh he will sin. In the following passage Paul makes it plain that believers can "live according to the flesh":

"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live" (Ro.8;13).

OZOS makes Paul a liar
 

Right Divider

Body part
Ttruscott, you correctly stated the following:

"The opinion that one born of GOD cannot sin would seem to contradict the direct meaning of Heb 12:5-11 which contends that we are trained in righteousness by a harsh discipline against our sins akin to being scourged with the cat of nine tails."

Why would the Lord be chastening these people who are born of god if not for their sins.
Because you and TS are both confused about the CONTEXT of the book to the Hebrews.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
OZOS said;

According to God's word, believers cannot walk in darkness.

“I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” - The Lord Jesus Christ

Jerry Shugart claims that Jesus is a "liar".


Why do you pevertt the scriptutes every chance you get? the verse says that "those who follow"the Lord Jesus will not walk in darkness. It does not say that believers cannot walk in darkness. if a believer is following Christ then he is walking after the Spirit so he will not sin but if he begins to walk after the flesh he will sin. In the following passage Paul makes it plain that believers can "live according to the flesh":

"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live" (Ro.8;13).
Again, you Satan worshipping fraud, you are the only one "perverting" God's word, and adding your own commentary to the text, because you don't know the gospel, and have no clue what salvation is. I gave you multiple verses that prove that those who are "born of God", those who are believers, having been crucified with Christ, and are now one spirit with Him, cannot walk in darkness. Because you are clueless about what it means to walk in the Spirit or walk in the flesh, you have only one recourse and that is to make up your own version of the truth, which is, in fact, a lie. But, it's already been well established that you are a liar.

Every child of God (you're not), has died with Christ, and they no longer live. The life that they have now, is His life. You don't even understand what that means, because you have never been "born of God", and you do not have the Spirit of God dwelling in you. You are a "natural man", filled with demons. Every child of God is complete in Him, having been sanctified, made holy, righteous, and perfected for all time. They are in the light, as He is in the light. You have a fleshly view of Christianity, because you are still carnal, having never been saved.

Your perverted view of what Paul said has any believer who is one spirit with God, and seated in Christ in heavenly places, being put to death and eternally separated from God based on wrong behavior. You are to be accursed for adding works to the gospel. You will go to hell. I'm not kidding. "Living according to the flesh, is to observe the Law for righteousness. The only way to put the deeds of the flesh to death is to walk by faith in the finished work of the cross. Paul revisits this again in Galatians 5, but you refuse to read the whole Bible. This is why you continue spreading your gospel of dung all over the internet and in your books of blasphemy.

“…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.” Acts 26:18

Every child of God (you're not) has turned from darkness to light, and from the dominion of Satan to God. YOU are still in the dominion of Satan and still in darkness. Those who turned to God (repented) HAVE BEEN sanctified by faith in Jesus. You will never do this, because like Judas, your heart belongs to Satan.

“…for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light” Eph 5:8

The believer is encouraged to walk as they have already become. Paul said to the Colossians "As you have received Christ, so walk in Him". A child of God receives Christ by grace through faith, and this is what it means to walk by the Spirit, It has NOTHING to do with doing something about sin. Jesus died for our sins, and you, you godless pervert, are not qualified to do anything about sin.

“For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son” Col 1:13

Every child of God (you're not) has been removed from darkness and is now seated in Christ at the right hand of God. This is because salvation is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who gives us His life. Salvation is the receiving of His life. The person we once were in Adam, no longer exists, but YOU are attempting to deceive people into believing that the old man can be resurrected again, and that those who were "circumcised from the flesh" (without hands) can be re-uncircumcised and no longer be in Christ. You're an idiot.

“But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness” 1 Thess 5:4-5

Again, you anti-Christ pervert, Paul says that those born of God are NOT in darkness. Your false version of what it means to walk in the flesh is a doctrine of demons. Romans 7 and 8 destroys your heresy.

The very life of God dwells in those who are saved. They are in the Light, and the Light is them. They are not in darkness, cannot walk in darkness, and shall never be in darkness.

The desire of the flesh is to be justified by works, and those who walk after the flesh will be proven by the Law that they are sinners (the deeds of the flesh). Because you are a child of Satan, you completely reverse the truth.
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Here is what the author of Hebrews said to those who had already received the knowledge of the truth:

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" (Heb.10;26).

By using the pronoun "we" the author places himself in the category of one who has received the knowledge of the truth.

it is inconceivable that Hebrews10:26 is written to unbelievers.

So believers can sin.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
... Paul affirms that believers are not justified by the Law. ...

Those who walk after the Spirit are walking by faith, not by the works of the Law. If you are walking after the flesh, you are trusting in the works of the Law to be justified.

So if someone who is walking by faith (not trying to justify themselves by the Law) falls (steals a piece of gum or commits adultery and murder) they were never really walking by faith? Or does the Law just disappear for that individual so that sin just doesn't exist? The way I read what you are saying, it is sinful to even compare someone's behavior to the Law (especially that of someone who is supposedly walking by faith) because then you are bringing in sin. Their behavior doesn't seem to bring it in as much as someone's comparison of it to the Law brings it in. After all, that's what justification by works is all about - you comparing yourself to the Law and trying to walk the other way.

EDIT : My further point is that to look at things this way (if I'm reading you correctly) makes the whole idea of restoration nonsensical. How can someone be restored or brought back to salvation if they never had it?

Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Galatians 6:1

Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

James 5:13-20
 
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OZOS

Well-known member
So if someone who is walking by faith (not trying to justify themselves by the Law) falls (steals a piece of gum or commits adultery and murder) they were never really walking by faith?
Never implied or stated any such thing.
Or does the Law just disappear for that individual so that sin just doesn't exist?
"Apart from the Law, sin is dead"

If you steal a piece of gum, you are accountable to the one you stole it from. Not to God.

"All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable."

For those in Christ, they are not under the Law, and this was made possible because Jesus fulfilled the Law and it was abolished.

2 Cor 3:7-15

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven IN STONES, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be DONE AWAY: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is ABOLISHED: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart."

The Apostle Paul says.

1. The ministry of death and condemnation is written & engraved in stones. Those are the 10 commandments.
2. They had glory, but the glory of the Spirit surpasses the 10 commandments.
3. Moses had to put a veil over his face so the Israel would not see the glory of the 10 commandments fading away.
4. If Moses had not had the veil, Israel would have seen that the 10 commandments were to be abolished.

The Law (10 commandments) was abolished. Paul just said so. And he says it again.

Eph 2:14-16

"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, HAVING SLAIN THE ENMITY thereby"

Paul says

1. Jesus broke down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile.
2. The dividing wall (enmity) is the "Law of commandments"
3. Jesus abolished, in His flesh, the enmity (Law of commandments).
4. There is now no dividing wall between Jew & Gentile
5. Both Jew & Gentile are "one new man" in Christ, because He put to death the enmity (Law of commandments).

The way I read what you are saying, it is sinful to even compare someone's behavior to the Law (especially that of someone who is supposedly walking by faith) because then you are bringing in sin. Their behavior doesn't seem to bring it in as much as someone's comparison of it to the Law brings it in. After all, that's what justification by works is all about - you comparing yourself to the Law and trying to walk the other way.

To walk by the flesh (serve the Law) will always produce sin, because that is what the Law does, it reveals sin. If you want to change your behavior, it will always be more profitable to do so, but it will never make you right with God. Only being born of God makes you right with God.

My further point is that to look at things this way (if I'm reading you correctly) makes the whole idea of restoration nonsensical. How can someone be restored or brought back to salvation if they never had it?

Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Galatians 6:1
What do you think they are being restored to? Paul's entire letter to the Galatians concerns them being seduced into justification by works. The "fault" is not some deed of the flesh, but rather being seduced to serve the Law. Men are tempted to please God by works, rather than by faith.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Here is what the author of Hebrews said to those who had already received the knowledge of the truth:

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" (Heb.10;26).

By using the pronoun "we" the author places himself in the category of one who has received the knowledge of the truth.

it is inconceivable that Hebrews10:26 is written to unbelievers.

So believers can sin.
Having received the knowledge of the truth does not equate to accepting the knowledge of the truth, it simply means that they have been told, and they rejected it.

If anyone hears the gospel, and rejects it, there is no more sacrifice for sins. Jesus is the only One who qualifies as their advocate.

The idiot Jerry would have you believe that this is not about the sin of unbelief, and that anyone who covets has no sacrifice for that sin, and they have insulted the Spirit of grace, regarded the blood of Jesus as unclean, and have trampled under foot the Son of God. They have no other expectation but God's judgment and vengeance.

This is because Jerry worships a goat god.

"For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the form of those things itself, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually every year, make those who approach perfect. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."

Those who come to God, in spirit and in truth (the worshipers), should no longer have any consciousness of sins, because they know they have been cleansed from them ONCE for ALL. To be sin conscious is to claim that the sacrifice of Jesus was insufficient to have cleansed you from all unrighteousness and to make you perfect (Heb 10:14).

Sacrifices under the Law

  • Can never make you perfect
  • Can never stop you from being sin conscious
  • Reminded of your sins year after year
  • Can never take away your sin

The Sacrifice of Jesus

  • Takes away your sin, once for all
  • No more reminder of your sins
  • No more sin consciousness
  • Makes you perfect forever
There is no more sacrifice for sin.

If we continue to claim that we have sin that must be forgiven (even though God says He no longer takes your sin into account - 2 Cor 5:19), then there is going to have to be an offer for that sin, which would be an insult to the sacrifice of Jesus as being sufficient to take away your sin. There is no other offer for sin. Not guilt, not indulgences, not re-dedication, and not confession. We confess (agree with God) our need of a Savior for our sins ONCE and for ALL. We are complete in Him (Col 2:10), and in Him there is no sin (1 John 3:5). We can no longer make any offering for sin, because we have accepted His offer alone.
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
OZOS wrote, "Having received the knowledge of the truth does not equate to accepting the knowledge of the truth, it simply means that they have been told, and they rejected it."

According to your silly idea we are supposed to believe that since the author of Hebrews used the pronoun"we"that he placed himself i the camp of unbelievers he was told the truth and he rejected it.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" (Heb.10;26).

Do you really expect anyone else to believe your perversion of this verse, OZOS? Are you that delusional, you old fool?

Another example of those who were born of God actually committing a sin is those Christians who were eating and drinking at the Lord's Supper in an unworthy manner. Here is what Paul said about them:

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body" (1 Cor.11;29).

These were believers because Paul said the following to them;

"For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (!1 Cor.11:31032).

If they were unbelievers they would be judged with the world.

Being chastened of the Lord is reserved for God' sons:

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons" (Heb.12:6-8).

OZOS, you need to flee the cult to which you belong because they have brainwashed you into thinking that you no longer sin.



'
 

Idolater

Well-known member
Having received the knowledge of the truth does not equate to accepting the knowledge of the truth, it simply means that they have been told, and they rejected it.

If anyone hears the gospel, and rejects it, there is no more sacrifice for sins. Jesus is the only One who qualifies as their advocate.

The idiot Jerry would have you believe that this is not about the sin of unbelief, and that anyone who covets has no sacrifice for that sin, and they have insulted the Spirit of grace, regarded the blood of Jesus as unclean, and have trampled under foot the Son of God. They have no other expectation but God's judgment and vengeance.

This is because Jerry worships a goat god.

"For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the form of those things itself, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually every year, make those who approach perfect. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."

Those who come to God, in spirit and in truth (the worshipers), should no longer have any consciousness of sins, because they know they have been cleansed from them ONCE for ALL. To be sin conscious is to claim that the sacrifice of Jesus was insufficient to have cleansed you from all unrighteousness and to make you perfect (Heb 10:14).

Sacrifices under the Law

  • Can never make you perfect
  • Can never stop you from being sin conscious
  • Reminded of your sins year after year
  • Can never take away your sin

The Sacrifice of Jesus

  • Takes away your sin, once for all
  • No more reminder of your sins
  • No more sin consciousness
  • Makes you perfect forever
There is no more sacrifice for sin.

If we continue to claim that we have sin that must be forgiven (even though God says He no longer takes your sin into account - 2 Cor 5:19), then there is going to have to be an offer for that sin, which would be an insult to the sacrifice of Jesus as being sufficient to take away your sin. There is no other offer for sin. Not guilt, not indulgences, not re-dedication, and not confession. We confess (agree with God) our need of a Savior for our sins ONCE and for ALL. We are complete in Him (Col 2:10), and in Him there is no sin (1 John 3:5). We can no longer make any offering for sin, because we have accepted His offer alone.
And His offer is eternal, and He said to celebrate His offer continually until He comes again, which is exactly what eternal looks like, when it meets with temporality: it goes on forever. We're going to continue to celebrate His offer forever too, because it is eternal. We're not going to stop celebrating His offer when He comes again, we're going to be changed when He comes again, we're still going to celebrate His offer when He comes again. The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
OZOS wrote, "Having received the knowledge of the truth does not equate to accepting the knowledge of the truth, it simply means that they have been told, and they rejected it."

According to your silly idea we are supposed to believe that since the author of Hebrews used the pronoun"we"that he placed himself i the camp of unbelievers he was told the truth and he rejected it.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" (Heb.10;26).

Do you really expect anyone else to believe your perversion of this verse, OZOS? Are you that delusional, you old fool?
The only one "perverting" this verse, and the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, is YOU.

Your anti-Christ message is clearly seen, when you claim that believers who covet, lie, get angry, drink too much, eat too much, slander, etc., etc, no longer have any sacrifice for their "sin", have insulted the Spirit of grace, called the blood of Jesus "unclean", and trampled on the Son of God.

Again, you ignore the rest of the chapter concerning the sacrifice of Jesus that is superior to that of a goat, because you, in fact, worship a goat god.

"For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the form of those things itself, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually every year, make those who approach perfect. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."

Those who come to God, in spirit and in truth (the worshipers), should no longer have any consciousness of sins, because they know they have been cleansed from them ONCE for ALL. To be sin conscious is to claim that the sacrifice of Jesus was insufficient to have cleansed you from all unrighteousness and to make you perfect (Heb 10:14).

Sacrifices under the Law

  • Can never make you perfect
  • Can never stop you from being sin conscious
  • Reminded of your sins year after year
  • Can never take away your sin

The Sacrifice of Jesus

  • Takes away your sin, once for all
  • No more reminder of your sins
  • No more sin consciousness
  • Makes you perfect forever
There is no more sacrifice for sin.

The Corinthians were engaged in all sorts of unprofitable behavior, and Paul instructed them over and over to change the way they did things, but not because he considered them "sinners" in violation of the Law, like you do. Again, because of your doctrines of demons, and your corrupt, perverted mind, you search God's word looking to see who you can devour, just like your father the devil.

"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours"

"No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any."

"All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being."

"No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, that you may be able to endure it. Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say. Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread. Look at the nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar? What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons."

In Paul's letter to the church at Corinth, He has a great deal to say to them regarding idols, idol temples, and eating meat sacrificed to idols. Even though the Jews had gone through many trials and temptations, God had offered them an escape, and so it is with these in Corinth. Paul tells them plainly to "flee from idolatry". Their culture is permeated with it, and it encompasses nearly everything they do. They have a hard time buying meat from the market that has not been sacrificed to idols. Their fashions imitate those of the temple prostitutes, and drunkenness and fornication are commonplace among their whole society. Their motto was “What happens in Corinth, stays in Corinth”

Paul admonishes them, in that they are all one in the Lord. They all have partaken from the bread of Life. They have all shared in His blood that was shed for their sins. They are in this together, and they have a commonality in purpose. Paul tells them that in and of itself an idol is nothing, but to those who believe that it is something, they are sacrificing to demons. He lets them know that when they purposely eat meat that is sacrificed to idols they are legitimizing it to those who are not partakers with Christ. You cannot share in Christ and share in demons. Do not send that message to those who need Christ. Paul then goes on to talk about the same issues relating to hairstyles and fashion with those who partake in idol worship. Paul makes it clear that he does not want the culture and practices that rule the culture in Corinth to carry over into their fellowships. He wants them to delineate between who they were, and who they are now in Christ.

Therefore, Paul speaks directly to the times that they come together to share a meal and to fellowship in the Lord.

There was a diverse group of people who had come to Christ in Corinth; Some rich, some poor; Some married, some unmarried or widowed. Paul had already rebuked them for making divisions among themselves for claiming to be of Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, and now when they are coming together as a group, they are making divisions based on other foolish reasons. Paul will have none of this, Jesus died for all of them, and they are all one in Christ, it is wrong for them to show partiality to those who are so-called "approved", and so he proclaims...

"For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, in order that those who are approved may have become evident among you. Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper, for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God, and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you."

When they are coming together, those who have abundance are taking it upon themselves to eat and drink before sharing with those who came with nothing. As a result, some are going hungry and others are getting drunk. Paul basically tells them that if eating is what is so important to them, then do it at home. What they are doing is shaming those who have nothing, and it sends the message that they disrespect the church as a whole.

Paul continues...

" For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it, and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." In the same way He took the cup also, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes."

Again we see Paul using the same reference within just a few sentences to explain that they all partake from the same body, and that they all partake of the same blood. Whenever they come together to share with those in the body (the church), that it is meant for all, because all share in proclaiming His death. They are to remember that they are all on the same level in Christ. There is no partiality in the body, and they need to keep that in mind when they share with others in the body.

"Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself, if he does not judge the body rightly. For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. But if we judged ourselves rightly, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord in order that we may not be condemned along with the world. "

Remember how Paul just rebuked them for acting like those who do not know God, by purposely partaking in things sacrificed to idols? They are doing the same thing here with the body (the church). They need to examine what they are doing, because they will be judged by the body (the church). Showing up early and eating all of the food and getting drunk before anyone else can partake, is something that those in the world would do. They need to consider the body as a whole and not come under judgment from the body. And even if the body does judge them, they need to receive it as a discipline from the Lord, in order that they will not be condemned for doing things like the world would do them.

What does Paul conclude about their abuse of this fellowship?...

"So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you may not come together for judgment."
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
OZOs said: "The Corinthians were engaged in all sorts of unprofitable behavior, and Paul instructed them over and over to change the way they did things, but not because he considered them "sinners" in violation of the Law"

Did Paul not lay down the law concerning paraking of the Lord's supper here?:

"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Cor.11:27).

Were not those who did not partake of the Lord's Supper guilty of the body and blood of the Lord?

of course thry were but yet you say that their behavior was not a sin. Is not breaking a commandment of the lord a sin? paulsaid the following to these same believers who had partaken of the lord's supper in an unworthy manner:

"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order." (1 Cor.14:37-40).

Is not breaking a commandment of the Lord a sin? But you say that even though some of those believers were partaking of the Lord's Supper in an unworthy manner and therefore were not doing things "decently and in order'" that they were not sinning.

What a joke and there is no wonder that no one on this forum takes you seriously, you old fool!
 

OZOS

Well-known member
OZOs said: "The Corinthians were engaged in all sorts of unprofitable behavior, and Paul instructed them over and over to change the way they did things, but not because he considered them "sinners" in violation of the Law"

Did Paul not lay down the law concerning paraking of the Lord's supper here?:

"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Cor.11:27).

Were not those who did not partake of the Lord's Supper guilty of the body and blood of the Lord?
Too lazy to read my already given response? Then go to hell, you pervert.

"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order."
(1 Cor.14:37-40).

You have a problem with terms, that are used in context, don't you? This is the same reason why you stumble over "justification" and many other terms.

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope"

"Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel."

"but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior"

"Now those who are such we command and exhort through our Lord Jesus Christ that they work in quietness and eat their own bread."

There are many verses that are commands on how to maintain order. You make a great Pharisee, be creating them into laws that must be obeyed or, according to you, "they are wilfully sinning and insulting God's grace, calling His shed blood "unclean", and trampling the Son of God under foot."

"If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant. Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order."

You have an evil heart and are nothing more than a prig.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
According to your silly ideas a Christian can break a commandment of the Lord but that is not a sin.

You can't fix stupid!
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Never implied or stated any such thing.

"Apart from the Law, sin is dead"

If you steal a piece of gum, you are accountable to the one you stole it from. Not to God.

"All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable."

For those in Christ, they are not under the Law, and this was made possible because Jesus fulfilled the Law and it was abolished.

We aren't justified by the Law. With that I agree. But our faith is justified by our works. Christ speaks of those who love Him obeying Him. Revelation says that the works of those who die in the Lord follow them. James says our faith will produce works if it is true. That's why sanctification (in my mind) needs to be treated separate from justification. Justification is instantaneous and forensic. Sanctification may be instantaneous from God's perspective, but we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. If I commit sin one time, I am still guilty of that sin - but not enslaved to it. If I can't help but repeat it over and over then I am enslaved to it. That's what the "commit sin" of I John appears to be referring to. Sin is still the breaking of the Law even if it is also anything that is not of faith. Paul was really using that in the context of eating things sacrificed to idols. He used reason to show why eating something sacrificed to an idol wasn't - of itself - idolatry or sinful. In I Cor 6, Paul follows up his statement there about all things being lawful by providing a law against fornication. That's already encoded in the Mosaic Law. But Paul didn't come against that Law - and the sin of fornication is against God. Just ask David. ("Against Thee and Thee only have I sinned"). So in no sense - so I see - is the Law itself abolished. It is upheld - but not as a way to justify one's self. The just shall live by faith.

2 Cor 3:7-15

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven IN STONES, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be DONE AWAY: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is ABOLISHED: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart."

The Apostle Paul says.

1. The ministry of death and condemnation is written & engraved in stones. Those are the 10 commandments.
2. They had glory, but the glory of the Spirit surpasses the 10 commandments.
3. Moses had to put a veil over his face so the Israel would not see the glory of the 10 commandments fading away.
4. If Moses had not had the veil, Israel would have seen that the 10 commandments were to be abolished.

The 10 commandments were not abolished. The glory of the written Law was replaced by the Glory of Christ. Verse 7 says the same thing as verse 15. It's the glory that's abolished, not the Law itself. That was the handwriting in ordinances that was against us. We couldn't fulfill it. Death was the ministry of the Law. It ministered death because all were condemned by it. Our hope is not in the Law or the fulfilling of it - but it still exists. It is still a revelation of the character of God. The standard hasn't changed. Those that violate the Law still violate that standard. But the standard is fulfilled in Christ - the only way we could fulfill it. So if we violate that standard, we have forgiveness in Christ. It's still sin - but it's covered. We don't need an animal sacrifice. And the minute we look to the Law to find our way, we lose it. But our sin is still sin regardless of how or in whom it is forgiven.

The Law (10 commandments) was abolished. Paul just said so. And he says it again.

Eph 2:14-16

"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, HAVING SLAIN THE ENMITY thereby"

The enmity is the necessary separation brought by our sin. The Law revealed it and there was no way we could ever surmount that. Even in it's complete condemnation of all of mankind it was still glorious. But the glory in Christ is far greater.

Paul says

1. Jesus broke down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile.
2. The dividing wall (enmity) is the "Law of commandments"
3. Jesus abolished, in His flesh, the enmity (Law of commandments).
4. There is now no dividing wall between Jew & Gentile
5. Both Jew & Gentile are "one new man" in Christ, because He put to death the enmity (Law of commandments).



To walk by the flesh (serve the Law) will always produce sin, because that is what the Law does, it reveals sin. If you want to change your behavior, it will always be more profitable to do so, but it will never make you right with God. Only being born of God makes you right with God.

No argument there.

What do you think they are being restored to? Paul's entire letter to the Galatians concerns them being seduced into justification by works. The "fault" is not some deed of the flesh, but rather being seduced to serve the Law. Men are tempted to please God by works, rather than by faith.

They are being restored to God. That's largely why I included James 5:13-20. Only God can forgive sins. A man's waywardness is against God without ambiguity (even if I believe it's clear all sin is against Him period). And because this passage shows a man being restored after he is anointed with oil and prayed for, the forgiveness clear lies with God.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Nikolai 42, you said: "If I commit sin one time, I am still guilty of that sin - but not enslaved to it. If I can't help but repeat it over and over then I am enslaved to it. That's what the "commit sin" of I John appears to be referring to."

So you agree with me that those who are born of God can sin?
 
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