Can Christians Sin?

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Thereare some people who quote the following verse to assert that Christians, those born of God, cannot sin:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9).

Zane Hodges write the following commentary on 1 John 3:9:

"'God's seed' is his nature, given to each believer at salvation (John 1:13; 2 Peter1;4). the point here is that the child partakes in the nature of his Parent...all sin is devilish (1 John 3:8); it does not stem from the believer's regenerate nature; God's seed, but the child of God cannot and does not sin...Sin is not, nor ever can be, anything but satanic. It can never spring from what a Christian truly is at the level of his regenerate being."

Hodges also wrote:

"The fact remains, however, that Christians do not experience the sinless lifre perfectly on this earth; hence, 1;8,10 remain true. the two ideas are not really incompatible . The Christian still experiences a genuine struggle with the flesh and overcomes its impulses only by the help of the Holy Spirit (c.f. Gal.5:16-26).

"Paul's thinking also conforms with this view.in his struggle with sin he was able to conclude, 'Now if what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.'( Rom.7:20). In this way Paul could perceive sin as not a real part of what he was at the most inward level of his being (Rom.7:25)"


Zane Hodges taught New Testament Greek and Exegesis (1959–1986) at Dallas Seminary and was chairman of the New Testament Department for some time and was the founder and president of Kerugma Ministries.

If a person who claims to be a Christian commits a sin does that mean that he is not "born of God"?
 

ttruscott

Active member
The opinion that one born of GOD cannot sin would seem to contradict the direct meaning of Heb 12:5-11 which contends that we are trained in righteousness by a harsh discipline against our sins akin to being scourged with the cat of nine tails. And this blessing is reserved for HIS beloved legitimate children, not the illegitimate.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
"Paul's thinking also conforms with this view.in his struggle with sin he was able to conclude, 'Now if what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.'( Rom.7:20). In this way Paul could perceive sin as not a real part of what he was at the most inward level of his being (Rom.7:25)"
More evidence that Jerry has not a clue what the Bible teaches about sin, righteousness and the gospel. He is a false teacher, and does not know Jesus from Adam.

Here are the indisputable facts concerning Paul and Romans 7, which is his testimony on how the Law led him to Christ. Any true student of the Bible (or anyone who can reason logically) knows that Paul is not in bondage to sin, after being set free from sin (duh). Paul goes from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness through Jesus Christ. Simple, really it is.

In Galatians 3:23-25 Paul explains how the Law is a tutor that leads us to Christ.

"But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

Romans 7 is Paul's testimony on how the Law worked in him.

"I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead." Rom 7:7-8

So, Paul continues to write about this dilemma. He finds that he is in bondage to sin (slave of sin) vs 14. He knows the Law is good and holy, and righteous, but he is not. (vs 12). He wants to obey the Law, but He can't. He cannot do the good he wants, and can only practice the evil he does not want to do. In his flesh, he is a slave of sin. (verses 15-21).

The war between his will to do good, and the sin in his flesh, has him crying out "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" In other words, "what do I do about being a slave of sin, when that is not what I want."

His conclusion...

"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (vs 25)

He then says: "So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the Law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin."

Paul cannot have the one without the other. If he is going to continue to serve the Law, he will continue to be a slave of sin, because the Law (as he said earlier) is how he knows he has sin, but "apart from the Law, sin is dead".

"Therefore", and this is an essential "therefore"...

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Walking after the flesh is to return to the tutor (Law), which will bring Paul back to waging war against the flesh, and the conflict of not being able to do what he wants to do. Walking after the Spirit is walking by faith in Jesus, which has now come to Paul, and no longer being under the tutor (Law).

Contrary to poor interpretation of the text, or not reading all of this in context, students of the Bible have missed what it means to walk after the flesh. They have concluded that it means they must do something about sin ("kill it", "put it death", etc.), but Paul is saying that we put to death that system of looking to the Law to be right with God, and we walk by the Spirit (faith) in what Christ has done.

In Col 2:11 Paul says that we were circumcised from the flesh, not physically, but spiritually. And therefore who you are (a new creation in Christ) is no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit, because the Spirit of God now dwells in you, and gives you life. Jesus is your life (Gal 2:20).

This will then make perfect sense of the next several verses.

"For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

Again, in Gal 3, Paul revisits this:

"For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." Gal 3:21-22

When Paul was in the flesh, he waged war against the flesh, by observing his behavior under the Law, which proved him to be a slave of sin. He set his mind on the flesh, but now, having been circumcised from the flesh, he sets his mind on the things of the Spirit, where there is no more condemnation, where he can rest in the assurance that Jesus has dealt with sin, once and for all.

"For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Rom 8:5-8

The slave of sin, whose mind is set on the flesh, is hostile toward God. He sees the Law, but he has no ability to obey it. It's impossible for those who submit to it's demands to please God. 'Without faith it is impossible to please Him (Heb 11:6). The Law was fulfilled in us, who no longer walk according to flesh, but according to the Spirit (vs 4).

"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." Rom 8:9-11

In Christ, the Spirit of God dwells in you. He is your life ("It is the Spirit that gives life" Jn 6:63) and you are the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor 5:21). Because of the indwelling sin, the body is dead, and it will eventually be redeemed (Rom 8:23), but who you are now, as a new creation, is alive, because of the Spirit dwelling in you. You are "one spirit with Him" 1 Cor 6:17

Therefore, we are no longer to live in that system of sin and death, and continue to wage war against the flesh, by observing the Law, which can only bring about death ("The wages of sin is death"), but now we live by the Spirit and put to death (kill) that system of being right with God through the deeds of the body. We now walk, just as we received Him, by grace through faith in the finished work of the cross.

The old system returns us to being slaves of sin, which produces fear, but we are now slaves of righteousness, and God's children.

"So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” Rom 8:12-15
 

Idolater

Well-known member
"So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” Rom 8:12-15
If you are "putting to death the deeds of the body", can you still covet, for example? Do "all who are being led by the Spirit" covet, for example? If you are not "putting to death the deeds of the body", have you "received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again"?
 

OZOS

Well-known member
If you are "putting to death the deeds of the body", can you still covet, for example? Do "all who are being led by the Spirit" covet, for example? If you are not "putting to death the deeds of the body", have you "received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again"?
The "deeds of the body" are revealed by serving the Law (the yoke of slavery). Paul revisits this in Galatians 5...

"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the desire of the flesh is against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, in order to keep you from doing whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law." Gal 5:16-18

Paul's letter to the Galatians was written to counter those who preached justification through the works of the Law (the desire of the flesh). Instead, Paul admonishes them to walk by the Spirit. The desire of the Spirit is justification by faith. Anyone who carries out the desire of the flesh (justification by works through the Law) can only produce the deeds of the flesh (murder, strife, envy, coveting, etc). In other words, when you look to the Law, to be justified, the Law will prove that you are a sinner (the deeds of the flesh) and those who serve the Law, can never inherit the kingdom of God. Returning to the Law is a "spirit of slavery, leading to fear".

To put to death the deeds of the body, you must stop serving the Law for justification.

Has this answered your question? If not, please continue.
 

Idolater

Well-known member
The "deeds of the body" are revealed by serving the Law (the yoke of slavery). Paul revisits this in Galatians 5...
Are they revealed by the Law, whether or not it is served, or are they only revealed by serving the Law, and not by the Law without qualification? This is a clarifying question.
"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the desire of the flesh is against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, in order to keep you from doing whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law." Gal 5:16-18

Paul's letter to the Galatians was written to counter those who preached justification through the works of the Law (the desire of the flesh). Instead, Paul admonishes them to walk by the Spirit. The desire of the Spirit is justification by faith. Anyone who carries out the desire of the flesh (justification by works through the Law) can only produce the deeds of the flesh (murder, strife, envy, coveting, etc). In other words, when you look to the Law, to be justified, the Law will prove that you are a sinner (the deeds of the flesh) and those who serve the Law, can never inherit the kingdom of God. Returning to the Law is a "spirit of slavery, leading to fear".

To put to death the deeds of the body, you must stop serving the Law for justification.

Has this answered your question? If not, please continue.
Do you believe that Paul's vision for the Church, when writing Galatians and others, was perpetual Sunday Mass /services attendance, or that Christians would not attend church weekly? I get the moral ethical vision that you're promoting, that Christians should be moral and practice Christian ethics, but not because they serve the Law, but because we do not serve the Law, and through not serving the Law (combined with our faith) we are led by the Spirit, and He leads us into all righteousness. I'm just curious your view on weekly Mass attendance, the institution of Communion /the Eucharist. Does that figure into Paul's ethical vision for the Church? My answer is yes---'curious yours.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
OZOsS wrote:

"More evidence that Jerry has not a clue what the Bible teaches about sin, righteousness and the gospel. He is a false teacher, and does not know Jesus from Adam."

You argue that those who are born of God cannot sin. Have you sinned since you were saved and born of God?

Why do you refuse to answer that simple question? What are you trying to hide?
 

OZOS

Well-known member
OZOsS wrote:

"More evidence that Jerry has not a clue what the Bible teaches about sin, righteousness and the gospel. He is a false teacher, and does not know Jesus from Adam."

You argue that those who are born of God cannot sin. Have you sinned since you were saved and born of God?

Why do you refuse to answer that simple question? What are you trying to hide?
I've answered that question over a dozen times, but you either don't read my posts, or you have no clue what is being said. Go to hell, you godless pile of crap.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
SOZOS quoted the following verse;

""There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.""

There is no condemnatiion to those who walk after the Spirit.

But later in the same discouese paul tells Christians the following:

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live"
(Ro.8; 23).

By his words Paul leaves open the possibility that those who are born of God can walk according to the flesh and as a result they will sin.

That explains Paul's following words written to believers:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God"
(1 Cor.7:1).
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Ttruscott, you correctly stated the following:

"The opinion that one born of GOD cannot sin would seem to contradict the direct meaning of Heb 12:5-11 which contends that we are trained in righteousness by a harsh discipline against our sins akin to being scourged with the cat of nine tails."

Why would the Lord be chastening these people who are born of god if not for their sins.


 

OZOS

Well-known member
SOZOS quoted the following verse;

""There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.""

There is no condemnatiion to those who walk after the Spirit.

But later in the same discouese paul tells Christians the following:

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8; 23).

By his words Paul leaves open the possibility that those who are born of God can walk according to the flesh and as a result they will sin.

That explains Paul's following words written to believers:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (1 Cor.7:1).
You're a pervert, and you pervert God's word, and claim it says things it never said.

I have already addressed these verses in this thread, but you either don't read the posts or you don't understand them, because you have crap for brains.

"Walking according to the flesh" is serving the Law for righteousness.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
OZOS wrote;

"I've answered that question over a dozen times, but you either don't read my posts, or you have no clue what is being said. Go to hell, you godless pile of crap.

So you haven't sinned since you were born of God!

Here is what John wrote to some who were born of God:

"f we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us
" (1 Jn.1:9-10).

why would John be telling these people who have been born of God to confess their siins if they had not sinned?

"
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
OZOS you said;

"Walking according to the flesh" is serving the Law for righteousness."

here is what Paul said about walking in the flesh:

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"
(Ro.8:4)

Paul directly contradicts your silly idea.

Does your mommie know that you are playing with her computer, sonny boy?

'
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Here is what John wrote to some who were born of God:

"f we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" (1 Jn.1:9-10).

why would John be telling these people who have been born of God to confess their siins if they had not sinned?
I've addressed this multiple times, and your eisegesis is invalid.

The only people who are to confess that they have sin, are those who said they have no sin (vs 8). Only an idiot (YOU) would say otherwise. Those who have been cleansed for their sin (vs 7) have no sin to confess (duh). John is telling his readers that those who claim to have no sin, are lying, and Jesus (the truth) is not in them. He says that to his readers because there are some among them who are trying to deceive them (1 Jn 2:26). Just like those deceivers, YOU are also a deceiver. "Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness". Jesus is not going to die again. He shed His blood ONCE and for ALL sin. The blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin. YOU worship a goat god, not the Lord Jesus Christ.

"For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins." Heb 10:1-3

"And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God" Heb 10:11-12

Jesus sat down because IT IS FINISHED.

There is no more sacrifice for sins. Forgiveness of sins is FINISHED for those who are in Christ. Those who teach (YOU) that there is ongoing forgiveness of sin for those who have been crucified with Christ, are anti-Christ perverts, who worship a goat god.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
"Walking according to the flesh" is serving the Law for righteousness."

here is what Paul said about walking in the flesh:

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"
(Ro.8:4)

Paul directly contradicts your silly idea.
No, you lifeless, pile of crap, Paul affirms that believers are not justified by the Law. You're an idiot, and can't even understand a thing Paul says :LOL:

Those who walk after the Spirit are walking by faith, not by the works of the Law. If you are walking after the flesh, you are trusting in the works of the Law to be justified.

You are one stupid person. You can't even read what Paul said and understand it.
 

Idolater

Well-known member
I've addressed this multiple times, and your eisegesis is invalid.

The only people who are to confess that they have sin, are those who said they have no sin (vs 8). Only an idiot (YOU) would say otherwise. Those who have been cleansed for their sin (vs 7) have no sin to confess (duh). John is telling his readers that those who claim to have no sin, are lying, and Jesus (the truth) is not in them. He says that to his readers because there are some among them who are trying to deceive them (1 Jn 2:26). Just like those deceivers, YOU are also a deceiver. "Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness". Jesus is not going to die again. He shed His blood ONCE and for ALL sin. The blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin. YOU worship a goat god, not the Lord Jesus Christ.

"For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins." Heb 10:1-3

"And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Sacrifices were fake. They were symbols.
But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God" Heb 10:11-12
Such a rich scripture, so full of wonder and majesty and mystery. How does an eternal sacrifice manifest in the world that is temporal? Once. "One sacrifice for sins forever". Forever indicates eternality, consistent with "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" that indicates same.

1 Co 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. This indicates a sacrifice, the partaking of the sacrifice is a priestly thing to do, it's how we're priests and part of a priesthood, it's the partaking of the altar, that's what only priests can do. We do that, we the Body of Christ, the Church.

Our sins are met by the sacrifice of the cross, and that sacrifice is real which is why the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is so important to the Church. We've established that the Old Testament sacrifices were shadows, fakes, and symbols---that's not Holy Communion. Holy Communion is a real sacrifice, and while the cross was an historical event, temporal, the sacrifice of the Eucharist is eternal, and each time we celebrate it, we encounter it afresh, it makes all things new again, He makes all things new again, every Mass.
Jesus sat down because IT IS FINISHED.

There is no more sacrifice for sins. Forgiveness of sins is FINISHED for those who are in Christ. Those who teach (YOU) that there is ongoing forgiveness of sin for those who have been crucified with Christ, are anti-Christ perverts, who worship a goat god.
The ongoing nature of it is as a direct result of the sacrifice of the Mass being eternal and not temporal only. When eternality meets temporality, this is how it looks, it repeats, over and over and over forever, that's how eternality looks in temporality. That's why the Church will celebrate the Eucharist forever until He comes again.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
1 Co 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. This indicates a sacrifice, the partaking of the sacrifice is a priestly thing to do, it's how we're priests and part of a priesthood, it's the partaking of the altar, that's what only priests can do. We do that, we the Body of Christ, the Church.
Jesus said that when the Church (Body of Christ) comes together to share a meal, they do so in remembrance of Him, not in remembrance of sin. When Jesus died on the cross there was a change of priesthood.

"No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, that you may be able to endure it. Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say. Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread. Look at the nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar? What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons."

In Paul's letter to the church at Corinth, He has a great deal to say to them regarding idols, idol temples, and eating meat sacrificed to idols. Even though the Jews had gone through many trials and temptations, God had offered them an escape, and so it is with these in Corinth. Paul tells them plainly to "flee from idolatry". Their culture is permeated with it, and it encompasses nearly everything they do. They have a hard time buying meat from the market that has not been sacrificed to idols. Their fashions imitate those of the temple prostitutes, and drunkenness and fornication are commonplace among their whole society. Their motto was “What happens in Corinth, stays in Corinth”

Paul admonishes them, in that they are all one in the Lord. They all have partaken from the bread of Life. They have all shared in His blood that was shed for their sins. They are in this together, and they have a commonality in purpose. Paul tells them that in and of itself an idol is nothing, but to those who believe that it is something, they are sacrificing to demons. He lets them know that when they purposely eat meat that is sacrificed to idols they are legitimizing it to those who are not partakers with Christ. You cannot share in Christ and share in demons. Do not send that message to those who need Christ. Paul then goes on to talk about the same issues relating to hairstyles and fashion with those who partake in idol worship. Paul makes it clear that he does not want the culture and practices that rule the culture in Corinth to carry over into their fellowships. He wants them to delineate between who they were, and who they are now in Christ.

Therefore, Paul speaks directly to the times that they come together to share a meal and to fellowship in the Lord.

There was a diverse group of people who had come to Christ in Corinth; Some rich, some poor; Some married, some unmarried or widowed. Paul had already rebuked them for making divisions among themselves for claiming to be of Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, and now when they are coming together as a group, they are making divisions based on other foolish reasons. Paul will have none of this, Jesus died for all of them, and they are all one in Christ, it is wrong for them to show partiality to those who are so-called "approved", and so he proclaims...

"For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, in order that those who are approved may have become evident among you. Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper, for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God, and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you."

When they are coming together, those who have abundance are taking it upon themselves to eat and drink before sharing with those who came with nothing. As a result, some are going hungry and others are getting drunk. Paul basically tells them that if eating is what is so important to them, then do it at home. What they are doing is shaming those who have nothing, and it sends the message that they disrespect the church as a whole.

Paul continues...

" For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it, and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." In the same way He took the cup also, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes."

Again we see Paul using the same reference within just a few sentences to explain that they all partake from the same body, and that they all partake of the same blood. Whenever they come together to share with those in the body (the church), that it is meant for all, because all share in proclaiming His death. They are to remember that they are all on the same level in Christ. There is no partiality in the body, and they need to keep that in mind when they share with others in the body.

"Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself, if he does not judge the body rightly. For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. But if we judged ourselves rightly, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord in order that we may not be condemned along with the world. "

Remember how Paul just rebuked them for acting like those who do not know God, by purposely partaking in things sacrificed to idols? They are doing the same thing here with the body (the church). They need to examine what they are doing, because they will be judged by the body (the church). Showing up early and eating all of the food and getting drunk before anyone else can partake, is something that those in the world would do. They need to consider the body as a whole and not come under judgment from the body. And even if the body does judge them, they need to receive it as a discipline from the Lord, in order that they will not be condemned for doing things like the world would do them.

What does Paul conclude about their abuse of this fellowship?...

"So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you may not come together for judgment.

Now maybe you can tell me how we got to celebrating what is called "communion / Eucharist" in the churches, when these verses are all that is available to come up with that "religious" ritual.
 

aCultureWarrior

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
If Christians can't sin, why are they told to avoid sinful behavior and to be obedient to God's Word?

“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8–9)
 

Idolater

Well-known member
Jesus said that when the Church (Body of Christ) comes together to share a meal, they do so in remembrance of Him, not in remembrance of sin. When Jesus died on the cross there was a change of priesthood.

"No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, that you may be able to endure it. Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say. Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread. Look at the nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar? What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons."

In Paul's letter to the church at Corinth, He has a great deal to say to them regarding idols, idol temples, and eating meat sacrificed to idols. Even though the Jews had gone through many trials and temptations, God had offered them an escape, and so it is with these in Corinth. Paul tells them plainly to "flee from idolatry". Their culture is permeated with it, and it encompasses nearly everything they do. They have a hard time buying meat from the market that has not been sacrificed to idols. Their fashions imitate those of the temple prostitutes, and drunkenness and fornication are commonplace among their whole society. Their motto was “What happens in Corinth, stays in Corinth”

Paul admonishes them, in that they are all one in the Lord. They all have partaken from the bread of Life. They have all shared in His blood that was shed for their sins. They are in this together, and they have a commonality in purpose. Paul tells them that in and of itself an idol is nothing, but to those who believe that it is something, they are sacrificing to demons. He lets them know that when they purposely eat meat that is sacrificed to idols they are legitimizing it to those who are not partakers with Christ. You cannot share in Christ and share in demons. Do not send that message to those who need Christ. Paul then goes on to talk about the same issues relating to hairstyles and fashion with those who partake in idol worship. Paul makes it clear that he does not want the culture and practices that rule the culture in Corinth to carry over into their fellowships. He wants them to delineate between who they were, and who they are now in Christ.

Therefore, Paul speaks directly to the times that they come together to share a meal and to fellowship in the Lord.

There was a diverse group of people who had come to Christ in Corinth; Some rich, some poor; Some married, some unmarried or widowed. Paul had already rebuked them for making divisions among themselves for claiming to be of Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, and now when they are coming together as a group, they are making divisions based on other foolish reasons. Paul will have none of this, Jesus died for all of them, and they are all one in Christ, it is wrong for them to show partiality to those who are so-called "approved", and so he proclaims...

"For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, in order that those who are approved may have become evident among you. Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper, for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God, and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you."

When they are coming together, those who have abundance are taking it upon themselves to eat and drink before sharing with those who came with nothing. As a result, some are going hungry and others are getting drunk. Paul basically tells them that if eating is what is so important to them, then do it at home. What they are doing is shaming those who have nothing, and it sends the message that they disrespect the church as a whole.

Paul continues...

" For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it, and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." In the same way He took the cup also, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes."

Again we see Paul using the same reference within just a few sentences to explain that they all partake from the same body, and that they all partake of the same blood. Whenever they come together to share with those in the body (the church), that it is meant for all, because all share in proclaiming His death. They are to remember that they are all on the same level in Christ. There is no partiality in the body, and they need to keep that in mind when they share with others in the body.

"Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself, if he does not judge the body rightly. For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. But if we judged ourselves rightly, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord in order that we may not be condemned along with the world. "

Remember how Paul just rebuked them for acting like those who do not know God, by purposely partaking in things sacrificed to idols? They are doing the same thing here with the body (the church). They need to examine what they are doing, because they will be judged by the body (the church). Showing up early and eating all of the food and getting drunk before anyone else can partake, is something that those in the world would do. They need to consider the body as a whole and not come under judgment from the body. And even if the body does judge them, they need to receive it as a discipline from the Lord, in order that they will not be condemned for doing things like the world would do them.

What does Paul conclude about their abuse of this fellowship?...

"So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you may not come together for judgment.
That was a very high quality post.
Now maybe you can tell me how we got to celebrating what is called "communion / Eucharist" in the churches, when these verses are all that is available to come up with that "religious" ritual.
Well, there is Acts 2:42. But this answer of course presumes the Protestant tradition of what's called in shorthand, "Sola Scriptura", meaning that the highest authority for the Church is not Apostolicity as preserved by men holding the office of a bishop (cf. 1 Ti 3:1), but is only Apostolicity as recorded in the Bible. So your statement, that, "these verses are all that is available to come up with [the Eucharist]", begs the question that Sola Scriptura is correct, because outside of the Bible, there is plenty that is available, in the Apostolic oral tradition, a k a Sacred Tradition. This is purported to be the cluster of teachings generated by the Apostles themselves, stemming from each of the 12 men, though perhaps the Apostle James, due to his earliest demise, didn't contribute as much as the rest of them, and also perhaps Peter and Paul contribute more than all the others, due to their importance in the earliest Church era, and to their deaths occurring in the "eternal city" of Rome. It includes topics such as abortion and the Trinity, and other things not recorded in Scripture.

The Apostles spoke as well as wrote, and they also approved, which is why even books like Luke and Acts and James are in the NT, even though they aren't authored by Apostles. It's part of the Sacred Tradition that the Apostles approved of these books of the Bible, in their lifetimes (the Apostolic era), that's why they're in the Bible, and why something like the Didache isn't, even though bishops have subsequently authenticated the teachings of the Didache as Apostolic, the Didache was not approved by the Apostles (it was written after the Apostolic era).

The bishops have been presiding over the celebration of the Eucharist from as close to the beginning as anybody can tell. That institution and baptism (and Orders, which is how bishops are made) are both as old as dirt, and way older (over 10 years older) than the oldest NT book (Galatians? 1st Thessalonians? Mark?). The NT was written in the context of the Church already regularly celebrating the Eucharist and baptism. The Last Supper narrative is repeated four times in the Bible because the Eucharist had already been a perpetual institution for many years before any of those books were written.
 
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