ECT Can a man's righteousness commend the mercy of God?

[nikolai_42]

We are justified by righteousness. Why not test yourself to see how you feel about yours? Be honest with your findings. Can one trust you with themselves or will you always act in a self serving way?

That's very circular...I originally asked what man's righteousness was - if we are justified by it, then it is not our righteousness. That said, will a man reward a "good work"? He certainly does - more than that good work even deserves. But is that justification before God? No. So "my" righteousness which may well bring temporal reward is not the same as Christ's righteousness which alone is sufficient to justify us before God.

How do I feel about "my" righteousness? Worse every day...

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 10:3-4

 

[nikolai_42]

BWT, Given the great commandment, what's wrong "treating others" you feel doesn't credit your account?

To your added point, nothing is wrong with it - but it alone is the social gospel that saves none. Only as we work the works of God (which work is to believe in Him whom He has sent) do our works merit eternal reward - but then they are not really ours to begin with.

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
John 9:4

{If it sounds wrong to quote Christ's words as applying to the believer, I say that for the believer to do his own works is a violation of the faith of Christ and is worse than saying we must work as Christ did}

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:10

[EDIT] : And note this :

Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I Corinthians 3:8-15

Even being in Christ doesn't guarantee that we work perfectly - but it is clear that only those works that are of God will "stick".[/EDIT]

Simply...works follow spiritual parentage (they do not beget it) :

I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
John 8:38-47

 

[Cross Reference]

To your added point, nothing is wrong with it - but it alone is the social gospel that saves none. Only as we work the works of God (which work is to believe in Him whom He has sent) do our works merit eternal reward - but then they are not really ours to begin with.

How would you know that you should do nothing?

Aside from the commandment given to love your neighbor as yourself, how would know more specifically the works of God to do them? Religion has no voice. Do you have such relationship with God that you can be so sure of yourself that it is not your flesh in the mix of whatever you can only guess at?

And where is any of the above to be deemed a social gospel when salvation need not be my motive? I can't save anyone. . . either can you.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.



Eze 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
Eze 18:6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
Eze 18:7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
Eze 18:8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
Eze 18:9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 18:10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things,
Eze 18:11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,
Eze 18:12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
Eze 18:13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
Eze 18:14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
Eze 18:15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
Eze 18:16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
Eze 18:17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
Eze 18:18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
Eze 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

 

[nikolai_42]

How would you know that you should do nothing?

Aside from the commandment given to love your neighbor as yourself, how would know more specifically the works of God to do them? Religion has no voice. Do you have such relationship with God that you can be so sure of yourself that it is not your flesh in the mix of whatever you can only guess at?

You don't know...necessarily. But whether you do or not, it is clear that the works that God is after are not mere actions - but defined both by deed and by state of the heart. Lust and adultery; unjust hatred and murder; do as the Pharisees say but not as they do...there is something more here that is vital to the whole economy of the "works of God" in the lives of those who are His. That's why the infallible mark of the one in Him is that that one loves the brethren - because he is seeing the work of God and that is his delight. Aside from being given spiritual life, that doesn't happen.

And where is any of the above to be deemed a social gospel when salvation need not be my motive? I can't save anyone. . . either can you.

In an isolated sense, that's true. "Good" works as man defines them are of some value - just as keeping the physical body under discipline is of some value (I Timothy 4:8). I can't save myself much less anyone else...so what is the real motive for humanistic "outreach"?

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

No one is filled with God or His love by merrit.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

No one is filled with God or His love by merrit.

that is an interesting point but---

Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Mat 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Mat 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

LA

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

that is an interesting point but---

Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Mat 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Mat 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

LA

Agreed, but add it is by grace we are reconciled to him, become a clean vessel to be filled with Him, by His love we love. By His power we can overcome the flesh, the darkness.
Without Him we can do nothing, with Him we can do all things!

 

[Cross Reference]

You don't know...necessarily.

What do you mean, "necessarily" when what you are declaring has to be to make it possible? And you don't have such a relationship. In fact you don't even believe it is necessary to have it, given your doctrine.

But whether you do or not, it is clear that the works that God is after are not mere actions - but defined both by deed and by state of the heart.

And what works would they be? You aren't privy to any of that if you have no intimate relationship with God.

Lust and adultery; unjust hatred and murder; do as the Pharisees say but not as they do...there is something more here that is vital to the whole economy of the "works of God" in the lives of those who are His. That's why the infallible mark of the one in Him is that that one loves the brethren - because he is seeing the work of God and that is his delight. Aside from being given spiritual life, that doesn't happen.

That all is religious pap. You know it and I know it.

In an isolated sense, that's true. "Good" works as man defines them are of some value - just as keeping the physical body under discipline is of some value (I Timothy 4:8). I can't save myself much less anyone else...so what is the real motive for humanistic "outreach"?

You can make it to be whatever you want that will bring satisfaction and comfort to your way of thinking. However, nothing in what I am saying is of humanism.

 

[nikolai_42]

What do you mean, "necessarily" when what you are declaring has to be to make it possible? And you don't have such a relationship. In fact you don't even believe it is necessary to have it, given your doctrine.

Maybe not at the time of the act itself...we all have blind spots.

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Philippians 3:15

And what works would they be? You aren't privy to any of that if you have no intimate relationship with God.

Which is precisely why so-called "good works" are eternally useless outside of Christ.

That all is religious pap. You know it and I know it.

Um...no. It is what the Savior taught.

You can make it to be whatever you want that will bring satisfaction and comfort to your way of thinking. However, nothing in what I am saying is of humanism.

If the purpose of "good works" is merely to alleviate temporal suffering and aid in man's temporal needs, then it is humanism. It can't save and the end goal terminates with the man. Eternally good works are only done in Christ and those are what justify us before God. We may reap temporal benefits (from God) for giving to others, but they don't recommend us to God.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Agreed, but add it is by grace we are reconciled to him, become a clean vessel to be filled with Him, by His love we love. By His power we can overcome the flesh, the darkness.
Without Him we can do nothing, with Him we can do all things!

While that is true, it does not take into account that unsaved men can do things which God sees and which makes them candidates for salvation.

Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

No doubt she heard something of them first from other travellers perhaps.

On a sidenote-

I had heard that Rahab was an inn keeper and there was a mixup with her name because the harlots frequented the inns.

People hear about God and His people before they decide whether they will side with them or not, and the decision usually costs them something which verifies that they are genuine decisions.

LA

 

[nikolai_42]

If God is a Just God, why should it not commend His mercy . . . even His Grace. Please note that I am not saying works can save a man. However, cannot man's righteousness be such that he can find favor with God?

Who in the OT examples this?

Will Mark Zuckerberg find favor with God in any way with this :

Zuckerberg to Give Away 99% of his FB Shares

Should we liken this to the widow's mite (giving ALMOST all he has away) or the rich young ruler who is selling ALMOST all he has to do good? Or is this just a case of doing one's good in public to be seen of men?

Note that if it is the more negative of the 3 options, one is especially forced to impute motive to whether this is a good act or not...

 

[Cross Reference]

Enough of this nonsense.

 

[nikolai_42]

Enough of this nonsense.

What nonsense? You asked the question and if I'm reading you right, Mark Zuckerberg should find mercy with God because of his benevolence. Am I right?

Or what about this good Samaritan who paid for a woman's groceries when her card was declined (and to add a twist, he died not a day later) :

CA Man Pulls of Good Deed Before He Dies

The quality of righteousness is not human.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

While that is true, it does not take into account that unsaved men can do things which God sees and which makes them candidates for salvation.

Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

No doubt she heard something of them first from other travellers perhaps.

On a sidenote-

I had heard that Rahab was an inn keeper and there was a mixup with her name because the harlots frequented the inns.

People hear about God and His people before they decide whether they will side with them or not, and the decision usually costs them something which verifies that they are genuine decisions.

LA

How could the sin of pride, not needing, worshipping God be reconciled beyond the cross?

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Will Mark Zuckerberg find favor with God in any way with this :

Zuckerberg to Give Away 99% of his FB Shares

Should we liken this to the widow's mite (giving ALMOST all he has away) or the rich young ruler who is selling ALMOST all he has to do good? Or is this just a case of doing one's good in public to be seen of men?

Note that if it is the more negative of the 3 options, one is especially forced to impute motive to whether this is a good act or not...

See my last post on pride

 

[Lazy afternoon]

How could the sin of pride, not needing, worshipping God be reconciled beyond the cross?

I can not understand your writing.

LA

 

[oatmeal]

Rom 3:10

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

True.

That is for the unbeliever.

However for those who choose to do Romans 10:9-10, they receive the righteousness of God, II Corinthians 5:21, I Corinthians 1:30 ...

 

[Cross Reference]

True.

That is for the unbeliever.

Not true. God never used an unrighteous person when He needed something accomplished in righteousness. Name one if you think I am wrong.

 

[Truster]

Not true. God never used an unrighteous person when He needed something accomplished in righteousness. Name one if you think I am wrong.

Cyrus.