:doh: :bang:
Me: "Starting in chapter 4"
Jacob: "I read chapter 4, and there's not a lot there." :dunce:
Now read chapter 5. Then 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, all the way up to the last verse of chapter 22.
Honestly, Jacob, are you seriously that stupid?
Can a Jew be saved without believing the Trinity?
- Thread starter Jacob
- Start date
Me: "Starting in chapter 4"
Jacob: "I read chapter 4, and there's not a lot there." :dunce:
Now read chapter 5. Then 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, all the way up to the last verse of chapter 22.
Honestly, Jacob, are you seriously that stupid?
That person has no idea what he's talking about.
Jews have been cut off. THE BODY OF CHRIST is what was grafted in, in which there is neither jew nor gentile.
No.
You are not a Christian. Therefore you are not part of the BoC.
Therefore you are not grafted in.
Christians are neither Jews nor gentiles.
There is no distinction in the BoC.
Formerly Jew? Sure.
Formerly Gentile? Sure.
But no longer.
Now they are identified in Christ.
Then you are not saved.
So?
Doesn't change the fact that you are currently on your way to hell.
If you are in Revelation you can point me to your tribulation. I am not stupid. I have read Revelation many times. Why you say chapter 4 I do not know. Please do not insult me.
No. I am saved. It was the Gentiles who were grafted in by the way. I studied this before becoming a Jew. But I am also not an official convert though I have called myself a proselyte and a convert to Israel and Judaism. I have no problem calling myself a Christian. I have been honest with you.
Just hoping that people will see the truth. If you do not believe in Jesus as God, what sense does it make?
I believe John 1:1. That is a good place to start. Jesus may be God. I read different ways. I know that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. That I can stand by and defend with my life. The only argument I know against Jesus being the only begotten Son of God is that He is only the Son of God.
Greetings again Clete,
A son partakes of the character of his father, by hereditary and development from a child to maturity. Jesus as the only begotten Son, because of his conception and birth to God as his father and Mary as his mother, partook of this development until at the start of his ministry he was “full of grace and truth”. John 1:1,14 is speaking of this continuation of the character of God, and how it was developed in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Kind regards
Trevor
I appreciate your involvement. Although you seem to be finished, I would like to briefly add a few more comments. Most Trinitarians seem to look at John 1:1,14 as speaking of Jesus as the Word before and after his supposed incarnation. They look at a Being, rather than the Divine character. I suggest that John 1:1,14 is aiming at explaining how the character of God, summarised as “The Word” is continued, starting with God the Father and then developed in God the Father’s only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. John 1:1 separates God into two components, the Deity himself, and his character “The Word”. John then develops how this character becomes embodied in Jesus, the Word was made flesh, that is, a child who would become a man. It does not say that The Word took on another attribute. It says "the Word was made flesh", not that The Word became both God and man.
A son partakes of the character of his father, by hereditary and development from a child to maturity. Jesus as the only begotten Son, because of his conception and birth to God as his father and Mary as his mother, partook of this development until at the start of his ministry he was “full of grace and truth”. John 1:1,14 is speaking of this continuation of the character of God, and how it was developed in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Kind regards
Trevor
You post disjointed sentences and use random words, so I was wondering if...
So let's take this one step at a time then...
You accept that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.
When was Jesus begotten?
I am not sure what you are saying here. Please be more clear.
About 2000 years ago.
Greetings again Clete and Jacob,
Athanasian Creed: "The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding."
Please also note John 1:14 "The Word was made flesh." and Psalm 8:5 KJV God "made" Jesus "a little lower than the angels".
Kind regards
Trevor
Excellent answer Jacob. Matthew 1:20-21 “conceived” (KJV mg Gr: begotten), Luke 1:34-35 and John 1:14 clearly teaches this, but Trinitarians do not seem to endorse the simple and clear teaching of the Scriptures here. They somehow relate the term “begotten” as relating to his origin from eternity, but still claim that he always existed, a contradiction of terms and ideas that they are forced to endorse so that they can accommodate the term “begotten”.
Athanasian Creed: "The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding."
Please also note John 1:14 "The Word was made flesh." and Psalm 8:5 KJV God "made" Jesus "a little lower than the angels".
Kind regards
Trevor
Right answer.
So then who existed before John the Baptist and Abraham?
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Don't you see that there is no contradiction between the two ideas? There was no "Jesus", per se, prior to Him being conceived in Mary's womb but Jesus wasn't just a human being. The Bible flatly states that He existed, not only before John the Baptist and Abraham but "in the beginning" and that He is the Creator of all things! Who is the Creator other than God Himself?
Not only that, but Jesus calls Himself things like the "Lord of the Sabbath". He took the name of God for Himself, repeatedly accepted worship from others and repeatedly forgave sins. Not to mention the performance of countless miracles, up to and including raising people from the dead! In addition to that, in John chapter 10, He bluntly states that no one was taking His life from Him but that He, by His own power, was laying down His own life and that He, by His own power, would take it up again. (John 10:18)
So in John 10 we're told that Jesus rises Himself from the dead and then in Romans 10 we're taught to believe that "God raised Him from the dead".
There can be no other conclusion! Jesus is either God Himself or the bible is false - period. The bible CLEARLY teaches that Jesus is God. Any denial of this truth means either that you haven't read the bible or that you're openly defying it's clear teaching.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Did Abraham look forward to Christ's day? Shalom.
Greetings again Clete,
John 3:14-16 (KJV): 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Acts 2:22 (KJV): Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Peter teaches that Jesus was a man, and thus not God, and he attributes the source of the miracles to God, not Jesus.
Kind regards
Trevor
I am glad that you reject the “official” Trinitarian view here. It helps us to understand the popular verse which focuses on the suffering of Jesus and his humanity:
John 3:14-16 (KJV): 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Peter did not preach the Trinity on the Day of Pentecost:
Acts 2:22 (KJV): Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Peter teaches that Jesus was a man, and thus not God, and he attributes the source of the miracles to God, not Jesus.
Kind regards
Trevor
Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
Interesting. Do these verses mean the same thing or are they slightly different?
You don't get to do that, Jacob.
I have made an argument. If you ignore it, I will ignore you entirely.
I do not know what your argument is. I am not ignoring it. I am not even seeing it. What argument are you referring to? What is your argument? What do you want me to attend to? Are you okay with debating an argument or do you just want me to acknowledge what you have said? I am interacting with you. Don't fault me for that.