ttruscott
Well-known member
I'm afraid this was not my experience...I was rejecting HIM when HE came to me and called me in.
Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
I'm afraid this was not my experience...I was rejecting HIM when HE came to me and called me in.
So, you think that you are one of the special chosen ones?
Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. This means that salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. Salvation is a free gift from God, Romans 5:15-18.
God has chosen all of humanity in Jesus Christ. Jesus is God's new Adam and our new humanity. God does not impose salvation on anyone, if he did he would be unjust.
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Robert's Go To Verses: 1 John 2:2; Hebrews 2:9; Romans 5:18-19 Explained...Again
Robert's Go To Verses: 1 John 2:2; Hebrews 2:9; Romans 5:18-19 Explained...Again
Your go-to verses are not serving your argument, Robert, no matter how often you simply assert them without any substantive support.
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116186-Calvinism-You-Must-Already-be-Saved-to-Get-Saved&p=4933178&viewfull=1#post4933178
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...Romans-10-13&p=4880617&viewfull=1#post4880617
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-Faith-Alone&p=4871524&viewfull=1#post4871524
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...Romans-10-13&p=4880617&viewfull=1#post4880617
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?122172-Calvinism-Satan-s-Attempt-to-Pervert-the-quot-Historical-Gospel-quot-of-Jesus-Christ&p=4881998&viewfull=1#post4881998
The "special chosen ones", Robert, are not not going to believe:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ur-Salvation&p=4860809&viewfull=1#post4860809
How about you actually directly answer A4T's questions instead of deflecting to other verses?
AMR
Robert's Go To Verses: 1 John 2:2; Hebrews 2:9; Romans 5:18-19 Explained...Again
Your go-to verses are not serving your argument, Robert, no matter how often you simply assert them without any substantive support.
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116186-Calvinism-You-Must-Already-be-Saved-to-Get-Saved&p=4933178&viewfull=1#post4933178
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...Romans-10-13&p=4880617&viewfull=1#post4880617
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-Faith-Alone&p=4871524&viewfull=1#post4871524
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...Romans-10-13&p=4880617&viewfull=1#post4880617
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?122172-Calvinism-Satan-s-Attempt-to-Pervert-the-quot-Historical-Gospel-quot-of-Jesus-Christ&p=4881998&viewfull=1#post4881998
The "special chosen ones", Robert, are not not going to believe:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ur-Salvation&p=4860809&viewfull=1#post4860809
How about you actually directly answer A4T's questions instead of deflecting to other verses?
AMR
beloved57
Well-known member
Those scriptures can and only apply to the elect !
God's Truth
New member
There are sinners who come to him in belief and repentance and those are the sinners Jesus saves.
Repentant sinners that's who.
Believe, repent, or perish.
God's Truth
New member
Jesus saves us all on his own, and he CHOOSES whom he will save.
God's Truth
New member
Here are the scriptures that plainly tell us we have to obey to be saved:
John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
John 8:31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.
Luke 8:21 But he replied to them, "My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it."
1 John 3:24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them
2 Thessalonians 1:8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Hebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
John 13:17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.
Luke 11:28 Jesus says, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."
God's Truth
New member
God calls everyone.
Shasta
Well-known member
Even if God had no foreknowledge He would know by His intelligence that all freewill agents would not choose His way. He had already seen Satan and all his angels rebel against Him before a single human had been born. Creating sentient beings with a freewill automatically makes it possible, perhaps even probable, that a number of them will be lost. I cannot see how God would be less "onerous" (not my term) if He happened to know the names of the reprobate in advance. You are right, though, the ECF believed in foreknowledge but not in predestination. None of them were Open Theists.
As to pre-existence. The ECFs denial of it was not due to politics because it preceded the consolidation of political power over the Church. That doctrine was not part of First Century Judaism or Apostolic teaching so it was not taught and passed along.
Shasta
Well-known member
My point was that you cannot reject him and be saved at the same time. You can be resistant and still yield. Many people struggle while they are under the conviction of the Holy Spirit but it is only when they surrender their resistance, submit and believe God's word that they are saved. God never tells anyone to remain in their rebellion and wait until He saves them. He says to come out of the sinful life right then and there. That is what I read in the Prophets and in the preaching of the Apostles.
Subjectively speaking strong conviction which you yield to can seem like God did it all but that is simply not the gospel
The Bible speaks for its self. You believe that the Bible must be interpreted in the light of Calvinism. I believe that the Bible must be interpreted in the light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Calvinism is anti-Gospel, anti-Christ, anti-faith and anti-grace.
To believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born is unbelievable and unthinkable. I don't know what it is that you have faith in, all I know is that it is not God, nor is it his Son Jesus Christ. I think that you might be better off to believe in no God at all than to blasphemy him and his Son Jesus Christ.
ttruscott
Well-known member
You mean that IF such a predestination is totally arbitrary, without reason, it is unbelievable and unthinkable, I assume. If HE had a rational reason for a pre-birth predestination then it would be acceptable. IF HE chose to predestine to salvation everyone who accepted HIS deity by faith before the creation of the earth and did not choose to predestine anyone who rejected HIS deity by faith, then once we were born into the earth (Matt 13: 36-39) our previous predestination would come into play, all proper and righteous.
The answer to the very biblical predestination before the creation of the world being righteous is obviously our creation was pre-earth and our being conceived as human is a movement into the world, not a creation.
yes, all who are saved are chosen, the bible is clear on it.
Offered and provided are not one and the same, do you actually believe all people ever, will receive eternal life?
Better inform Him that He lied here:
Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Matthew 22:14 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
And here:
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
And here:
John 15:16
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
And you just contradicted yourself.
If you believe that God chooses "Some Certain Persons" to be saved and damns the rest to hell, then you must also believe that God is unjust.
To believe that God is unjust is the same as believing that God is a sinner that cannot be trusted.
From the beginning of time, salvation has been by grace (God's unmerited favor towards fallen man) through faith. It is not humanly possible to have faith in a God that Damns billions to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam.
fishrovmen
Active member
delete
Shasta
Well-known member
You are mixing two incompatible doctrines. When you say "IF HE chose to predestine to salvation everyone who accepted HIS deity by faith before the creation of the earth" and, conversely, "did not choose to predestine anyone who rejected HIS deity by faith" you are speaking of God foreknowing the choices of men and then destining them accordingly. In this, you have predicated predestination upon what God's foreknowledge.
This is not Calvinistic predestination. Calvin would say that God knows whether or not a person will "accept or reject His deity" because He has decreed that they do one or the other. Predestination according to foreknowledge is an Arminian concept. It was also, as far as I can tell, the belief of the Early Church Fathers, those teachers, apologists and leaders that followed the Apostles for the first 300 years of Church history prior their re-organization under the authority of the Emperor.
In the scripture you cited, Matt 13: 36-39, you appear to be making the identity of the "good seed" and the "weeds" into an ontological issue, as if their identity was determined by their design or essence rather than their choices, just as if they were physical wheat or weeds. However, this is misuse of the metaphor.
Fortunately, there is no reason to speculate about what Jesus meant because, in this case, He explains the parable Himself. According to the Master what makes a person good seed (or a "son of the kingdom") or a weed (or, a "son of the wicked one") is the choices they make in life.
41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:36-43).
According to what Jesus said it is not whether a person is a Calvinist or arminian or whether they have made a profession of faith in Him at one time in their life that makes them a "weed" What makes someone a weed is that they practice lifestyle of law-breaking Conversely a "son of the kingdom" will be judged by whether or not they have practiced a lifestyle of righteousness (Matthew 13:43).
Nothing here or anywhere else in the Bible attributes a person's destiny to something they did or were while they were in some preexistent state If this is what you were saying then you were even further off the mark than I thought. At one point Origin adopted the idea preexistence but his views on the subject were later condemned as heretical.
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You keep saying that, yet you wont answer my questions to show me an error you think i have- i dont believe God unjust at all and i asked you how you arrived at that in an earlier post that you keep ignoring.
Do you believe all men forever are saved?
If not, then you believe also that some people will be saved, and the rest end up in hell.
Please go back and read my posts to you, and actually address them. That is what a conversation is.
If you want to teach me something, go back and break down the verse i gave you and tell me what it means, since you dont think it means what it says.
It is not my place to teach you the truth, that is the work of the Holy Spirit.
God choose prophets, patriarch's, the nation of Israel, apostles, for the sole purpose of making known to the world the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Gospel is the heart and the center of the Bible.
Those that were saved in the New Testament were saved by hearing and believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Acts 2:41. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Which is the Gospel Romans 10:17.
God does not predestinate people to salvation before the foundation of the world, because God is no respecter of persons, Acts 10:34. God does NOTHING outside of his Son when it comes to the salvation of fallen man.
You cannot and will not receive the Holy Spirit without hearing and believing the Gospel, Galatians 3:2.
If you believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born, then you must also believe that God is unjust. If you believe that God is unjust then you are lost.
If you want the truth keep seeking and the Lord will reveal it unto you.
ttruscott
Well-known member
It certainly isn't since it does away with two of the Calvinist and other orthodox blasphemies that GOD knew before we were created who would end in hell but created them anyway and that we are born sinners because we inherited Adam's sin, the worst blasphemy of all.
GOD doesn't create evil any more that salt or brackish water can flow from the spring of pure life giving water, no matter what Calvinists claim.
And I am not "speaking of God foreknowing the choices of men and then destining them accordingly" I am speaking about people actually choosing pre-earth to accept HIS deity and HIS promise of election to salvation OR choosing to reject HIM as their GOD and becoming HIS eternal enemies, as it is written, "Who sinned, this man or his parents that he was born blind? IE the disciples knew a man could sin before his birth and carry the judgement on that sin from his birth into his life.
And I cannot countenance this blasphemy...GOD doesn't decree the evil of anyone or HE is the one guilty for that evil, not them and HE would put HIMself in hell if HE was just.
The Arminians believe the same blasphemies Calvin did, they offer nothing new except their take on it adds the inevitability of a universal salvation, which makes Christ seem the fool for all His warnings of a dreadful afterlife.
You think? Then you think wrong - they were separated into the two groups, the people of the kingdom and the people of the evil one, before the earth was created by their free will acceptance or rejection of YHWH's claims to be our creator GOD made in Sheol at that time. Then we all saw the creation of the physical universe and every knee did bow and every voice did sing HIS praise, Job 38:7. This is supported in Rom 1:20 which says EVERY person saw the proof of HIS divinity and power by what was made so they are without excuse and no study of nature on earth has ever by itself convicted anyone of the deity of YHWH in all history. If a study of nature or the stars is all this refers to then everyone has an excuse - it just doesn't prove out in our reality. In fact the biggest religion in the East took their study of our reality to mean that they are all gods and parts of god. Only someone who has been taught to think this proof was in a study of nature and not our witness to the creation of all nature thinks it is plausible and only then if they don't really think about it.
He explains the parable, leaving out all metaphor or symbolism, as telling us that these people have been separated from each other by their choices BEFORE THESE PEOPLE ARE SOWN INTO THE WORLD! Both the Son of Man and the devil sow these people into the world so sow cannot refer to our creation implying therefore that we lived elsewhere in a place of storage and were moved to be scattered / sown into this world by our respective fathers. These makes your assertion they become good or bad seed in life to be wrong because they are sown as good or bad at their birth. It is also suggestive of the place of the dead, ie of spirits not in bodies, Sheol, was the waiting room for life on earth as human. To reject this one must pretend that He has not hardly begun to explain the parable at all. The parable is explained and should be accepted on face value with no word being a symbol of anything else, imCo.
Nothing??? John 9:1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was BORN blind?” Sigh... they accepted sin before birth. Jacob and Esau were trying to murder each other, trying to crush each other to pieces in the womb over the rights of the first born...pretty obvious sin and knowledge they shouldn't have had if your "created on earth " bias is correct, eh?
Remember, I am the guy who contends that we can only be guilty of a sin we chose to do by our own free will knowing it was against GOD's declared wishes. GOD, making me do a sin I did not choose by my libertarian free will, would be the guilty one.
Calvinism is a heresy to both Arminian sects and to the RCC. Big hairy deal. It is almost a badge of honour to be on someone's heresy list. Since nothing about our pre-conception existence destroys or denies our salvation in Christ by faith alone it should be considered a heterodox theology, not a heresy.
And anyway, Origen's Christology was indeed a heretical blasphemy but must I reject all his theology because HIS Christology was bad? Must I reject Christ on the cross because all heretical Christian sects have Him there?
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