Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

[God's Truth]

You teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost!

I teach no such thing. All men must come to God through Jesus to be saved. We come to Jesus in belief and repentance. We must repent of our sins to be saved and call on Jesus to save us.

Christ obeyed God and it made people righteous Rom 5:19

You cannot enter that grace unless you have faith, and that faith must be alive. Faith is made alive by doing right actions with it.

See Romans 5:2, James 2:14, 17, 20, and 22.

 

[themuzicman]

Calvinist gospel:

"You may have already received eternal life."

 

[beloved57]

I teach no such thing. All men must come to God through Jesus to be saved. We come to Jesus in belief and repentance. We must repent of our sins to be saved and call on Jesus to save us.


You cannot enter that grace unless you have faith, and that faith must be alive. Faith is made alive by doing right actions with it.

See Romans 5:2, James 2:14, 17, 20, and 22.

Quit lying, you do teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost!

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[God's Truth]

Quit lying, you do teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost!

The Bible says false doctrines come from demons. All Satan has left you with to defend his false doctrines are insults. Just look at what you did, you merely came back and called me a liar. You do not have truth to defend your beliefs so what else can you do but insult and slander me?

 

[beloved57]

The Bible says false doctrines come from demons. All Satan has left you with to defend his false doctrines are insults. Just look at what you did, you merely came back and called me a liar. You do not have truth to defend your beliefs so what else can you do but insult and slander me?

Do you believe that sinners Christ died for are still lost?

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[Ask Mr. Religion]

Avoid Unwarranted Presuppostions

Avoid Unwarranted Presuppostions

As noted:

So rather than teaching universalism, John here instead announces the exclusivity of the Christian gospel. Since Christ’s atonement is the one and only efficacious atonement for the “whole world,” there is no other form of atonement available to other peoples, cultures, and religions apart from Jesus Christ.

I do not think John had in mind the various cultures, tribes and languages that divide humanity. I think he had in mind the one thing that unites humanity before they come to Christ - their sin and falleness.

What you "think" is borne from reading into the passage presuppositions that are decidedly and clearly anti-Calvinist based upon your facile attempt to draw Calvinism into the interpretation.

On the other hand, what I have previously stated, based upon the full counsel of Scripture concerning John, is exactly what the passage teaches absent any Calvinist or anti-Calvinist presuppositions. If the result happens to be seen as supporting either doctrinal camp, that is just fine by me for I try not to force a passage from Scripture to bear more hermeneutical freight than is possible. If one is going to set off reading Scripture through Calvinist or anti-Calvinist lens hoping for "gotchas!", all manner of oddities will result, e.g.,

This verse refutes all Calvinists.

Sigh.

To determine what "John had in mind" a careful study of the word “world” in John’s writings will reveal the word to be often used to refer not to the planet or all its inhabitants, but to the system of fallen human culture, with its values, morals, and ethics as a whole. "World" is that which is totally opposed to God and all that belongs to Him. It is almost always associated with the side of darkness in the Johannine duality, wherein people are characterized in John’s writings as being either “of God” or “of the world” (see John's clear application along these lines in John 8:23; 15:19; 17:6,14,16; 18:36; 1 John 2:16; 4:5). Those who have been born of God are taken out of that spiritual sphere, though not out of the geographical place or physical population that is concurrent with it (John 13:1; 17:15).

AMR

 

[God's Truth]

Do you believe that sinners Christ died for are still lost?

Jesus is the Savior for ALL.

1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

You enter that grace with living faith.

See Romans 5:2, James 2:14, 17, 20, and 22.

 

[beloved57]

Jesus is the Savior for ALL.

1 Timothy 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

You enter that grace with living faith.

See Romans 5:2, James 2:14, 17, 20, and 22.

Again don't you believe that sinners Christ came to save, to be savior of, are still lost ? Yes or No ?

 

[God's Truth]

Again don't you believe that sinners Christ came to save, to be savior of, are still lost ? Yes or No ?

Jesus came to save all and all who are saved are those who came to Jesus with living faith.

Stop repeating yourself and accept God's Word.

 

[Nanja]

Jesus came to save all and all who are saved are those who came to Jesus with living faith.

The Faith that pleases God is a fruit of the Spirit given in New Birth Gal. 5:22 to all His Election of Grace 2 Tim. 1:9.

But the faith an unregenerate man exercises is merely a work of the flesh which cannot please God Rom. 8:8.

Salvation is by God-Given Grace, not by any works a man does Eph. 2:8-9; Is. 64:6.

So, according to the scriptures, only once a person is Born of the Spirit can he please God Rom. 8:9.

John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

 

[Robert Pate]

The Faith that pleases God is a fruit of the Spirit given in New Birth Gal. 5:22 to all His Election of Grace 2 Tim. 1:9.

But the faith an unregenerate man exercises is merely a work of the flesh which cannot please God Rom. 8:8.

Salvation is by God-Given Grace, not by any works a man does Eph. 2:8-9; Is. 64:6.

So, according to the scriptures, only once a person is Born of the Spirit can he please God Rom. 8:9.

John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

You have the wrong interpretation of God's grace.

There is no grace in a God that predestinates billions to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam. We are all sinners without works. It is not our fault that we are sinners. It's Adam's fault.

"Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12.

Your Calvinist God is unjust in condemning people to hell because they are sinners.

Its not our fault that we are sinners, but its our fault if we don't receive Christ as our savior.

Your Calvinist doctrine has a lot of holes in it, this is just one of them.

 

[Shasta]

[=Ask Mr. Religion;4933408]As noted:

What you "think" is borne from reading into the passage presuppositions that are decidedly and clearly anti-Calvinist based upon your facile attempt to draw Calvinism into the interpretation.

I see. I am not completely free of presuppositions as you are...or am I wrong because I used the phrase "I think?" Well how does anyone reason or arrive at conclusions unless they think. You do too whether you append the words "I think" to your remarks or not. As for my having positions that are in opposition to Calvinism that is obvious to everyone. When I quoted Calvin's Commentary on John I did it because I was surprised to see him admit that "world" meant "humanity" Maybe it was Calvin's commentary that was facile.

On the other hand, what I have previously stated, based upon the full counsel of Scripture concerning John, is exactly what the passage teaches absent any Calvinist or anti-Calvinist presuppositions. If the result happens to be seen as supporting either doctrinal camp, that is just fine by me for I try not to force a passage from Scripture to bear more hermeneutical freight than is possible

. [FONT=&]If one is going to set off reading Scripture through Calvinist or anti-Calvinist lens hoping for "gotchas!", all manner of oddities will result, e.g.,

So above any of us know "the full counsel of scripture" I would never make such a claim for myself. If you think I am just firing off answers off the cuff then you are totally wrong. I try to give what other people say some consideration before answering them. You just do not like it because you hold a differing opinion.


Sigh.

To determine what "John had in mind" a careful study of the word “world” in John’s writings will reveal the word to be often used to refer not to the planet or all its inhabitants, but to the system of fallen human culture, with its values, morals, and ethics as a whole. "World" is that which is totally opposed to God and all that belongs to Him. It is almost always associated with the side of darkness in the Johannine duality, wherein people are characterized in John’s writings as being either “of God” or “of the world” (see John's clear application along these lines in John 8:23; 15:19; 17:6,14,16; 18:36; 1 John 2:16; 4:5). Those who have been born of God are taken out of that spiritual sphere, though not out of the geographical place or physical population that is concurrent with it (John 13:1; 17:15).

AMR[/QUOTE]

Sometimes John does use kosmos to mean the world of fallen sinful humanity. That is a valid interpretation but it is precisely for sinners that Christ died. That has been one of my main points in this whole discussion. Christ was the atoning sacrifice "not for OUR sins" (believers like John and his readers) but also for the sin of the "whole world" for all the ungodly who did not know God, even for those whom God knew would never believe and enjoy the benefits of the cross. That it is the magnanimity and justice of God.

 

[beloved57]

Jesus came to save all and all who are saved are those who came to Jesus with living faith.

Stop repeating yourself and accept God's Word.

Dont you believe sinners Christ came to save are going to be lost ? Yes or No

 

[beloved57]

You have the wrong interpretation of God's grace.

There is no grace in a God that predestinates billions to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam. We are all sinners without works. It is not our fault that we are sinners. It's Adam's fault.

"Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12.

Your Calvinist God is unjust in condemning people to hell because they are sinners.

Its not our fault that we are sinners, but its our fault if we don't receive Christ as our savior.

Your Calvinist doctrine has a lot of holes in it, this is just one of them.

Dont you believe sinners Christ died to save shall be lost anyways ? Yes or No ?

 

[Shasta]

[=Ask Mr. Religion;4933408]As noted:

What you "think" is borne from reading into the passage presuppositions that are decidedly and clearly anti-Calvinist based upon your facile attempt to draw Calvinism into the interpretation.

I see. I am not completely free of presuppositions like you are...or was I wrong because I used the phrase "I think?" Well how does anyone reason or arrive at any conclusions unless they think? You do too whether or not you append the words "I think" to your remarks. As for my having positions that are in opposition to Calvinism that should be obvious to everyone. When I quoted Calvin's Commentary on John 3:16 I did it because I was surprised to see him admit that "world" meant "humanity" Maybe it was Calvin's commentary that was facile.

On the other hand, what I have previously stated, based upon the full counsel of Scripture concerning John, is exactly what the passage teaches absent any Calvinist or anti-Calvinist presuppositions. If the result happens to be seen as supporting either doctrinal camp, that is just fine by me for I try not to force a passage from Scripture to bear more hermeneutical freight than is possible

. [FONT=&]If one is going to set off reading Scripture through Calvinist or anti-Calvinist lens hoping for "gotchas!", all manner of oddities will result, e.g.,

So unlike all the rest of us you know "the full counsel of scripture" Well, you can have that title if you want it but we will all remember that you awarded it to yourself. I would never make such a claim for myself. You clearly think I am just firing off answers off the cuff. If you think that you are totally wrong. I try to give what other people say some consideration before answering them. I also try to word my own responses carefully. You just do not like it because you hold a differing opinion.


Sigh.

To determine what "John had in mind" a careful study of the word “world” in John’s writings will reveal the word to be often used to refer not to the planet or all its inhabitants, but to the system of fallen human culture, with its values, morals, and ethics as a whole. "World" is that which is totally opposed to God and all that belongs to Him. It is almost always associated with the side of darkness in the Johannine duality, wherein people are characterized in John’s writings as being either “of God” or “of the world” (see John's clear application along these lines in John 8:23; 15:19; 17:6,14,16; 18:36; 1 John 2:16; 4:5). Those who have been born of God are taken out of that spiritual sphere, though not out of the geographical place or physical population that is concurrent with it (John 13:1; 17:15).

AMR[/QUOTE]

Sometimes John does use kosmos to mean the world of fallen sinful humanity. That is a valid interpretation but it is precisely for sinners that Christ died. That has been one of my main points in this whole discussion. Christ was the atoning sacrifice "not for OUR sins" (believers like John and his readers) but also for the sin of the "whole world" for all the ungodly who did not know God, even for those whom God knew would never believe and enjoy the benefits of the cross. That it is the magnanimity and justice of God.

 

[beloved57]

I see. I am not completely free of presuppositions like you are...or was I wrong because I used the phrase "I think?" Well how does anyone reason or arrive at any conclusions unless they think? You do too whether or not you append the words "I think" to your remarks. As for my having positions that are in opposition to Calvinism that should be obvious to everyone. When I quoted Calvin's Commentary on John 3:16 I did it because I was surprised to see him admit that "world" meant "humanity" Maybe it was Calvin's commentary that was facile.



So unlike all the rest of us you know "the full counsel of scripture" Well, you can have that title if you want it but we will all remember that you awarded it to yourself. I would never make such a claim for myself. You clearly think I am just firing off answers off the cuff. If you think that you are totally wrong. I try to give what other people say some consideration before answering them. I also try to word my own responses carefully. You just do not like it because you hold a differing opinion.


[/FONT] Sigh.

To determine what "John had in mind" a careful study of the word “world” in John’s writings will reveal the word to be often used to refer not to the planet or all its inhabitants, but to the system of fallen human culture, with its values, morals, and ethics as a whole. "World" is that which is totally opposed to God and all that belongs to Him. It is almost always associated with the side of darkness in the Johannine duality, wherein people are characterized in John’s writings as being either “of God” or “of the world” (see John's clear application along these lines in John 8:23; 15:19; 17:6,14,16; 18:36; 1 John 2:16; 4:5). Those who have been born of God are taken out of that spiritual sphere, though not out of the geographical place or physical population that is concurrent with it (John 13:1; 17:15).

AMR

Sometimes John does use kosmos to mean the world of fallen sinful humanity. That is a valid interpretation but it is precisely for sinners that Christ died. That has been one of my main points in this whole discussion. Christ was the atoning sacrifice "not for OUR sins" (believers like John and his readers) but also for the sin of the "whole world" for all the ungodly who did not know God, even for those whom God knew would never believe and enjoy the benefits of the cross. That it is the magnanimity and justice of God.[/QUOTE]

The World in Jn 3:16 is Gods Elect/Sheep !

 

[Robert Pate]

Dont you believe sinners Christ died to save shall be lost anyways ? Yes or No ?

You are about as lost as you can get. Rejection of Christ and his Gospel will earn you a first class ticket to hell.

 

[Shasta]

The World in Jn 3:16 is Gods Elect/Sheep !

Repetition is not an argument. Really it is more like a chant made to the accompaniment of drumbeats.

 

[beloved57]

Repetition is not an argument. Really it is more like a chant made to the accompaniment of drumbeats.

Denying the truth isn't going to help you.

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Nanja]

You have the wrong interpretation of God's grace.

There is no grace in a God that predestinates billions to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam. We are all sinners without works. It is not our fault that we are sinners. It's Adam's fault.

"Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12.

Your Calvinist God is unjust in condemning people to hell because they are sinners.

Its not our fault that we are sinners, but its our fault if we don't receive Christ as our savior.

Your Calvinist doctrine has a lot of holes in it, this is just one of them.

Unless God makes you Spiritually Alive in New Birth, your understanding of the scriptures will remain darkened Eph. 4:18.

I have shown how that Grace was given by God to His Election of Grace before the world began 2 Tim. 1:9; Eph. 1:7.

Not an offer to all men without exception, but God-Given John 3:27.

Yes, all men are sinners, but only the sins of the Sheep were imputed to Christ to die for John 10:11;15; Is. 53:6.

But the goats were condemned to hell for their sins Mat. 25:41.


Why do you strive with God?

Is. 45:9
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?