BRXII Battle talk

[logos_x]

Just a little break with Steven Curtis Chapman on video:
Time for some music...

Lord of the Dance

Dive

 

[Aimiel]

Not with Scripture.

With your interpretations of Scripture.

Which, by the way, have been recently pointed out by Balder as being in disagreement which each other.

Where Nineveh, PastorKevin and I are in disagreement, is in interpretation of Scripture; but where we agree (the definition of The Gospel and the sound doctrine of eternal torment, for example) isn't because of interpretation, but rather the simple, clear preponderance of evidence given explicitly by Scripture, which isn't open to interpretation, as you and everyone who has embraced any form of 'universalism' has most definitely presumed.

 

[Aimiel]

So your whole argument boils down to the difference between "send" and "place?"

Surely you can do better than that...

I don't have to, being an adult. I know that when I blamed my 'mean ole' parents for punishing me I was foolish and presumptuous (I didn't know any such thing at the time, I was a child, acting childishly) but now that I am grown, I have put off childish things. :think:

 

[logos_x]

Where Nineveh, PastorKevin and I are in disagreement, is in interpretation of Scripture; but where we agree (the definition of The Gospel and the sound doctrine of eternal torment, for example) isn't because of interpretation, but rather the simple, clear preponderance of evidence given explicitly by Scripture, which isn't open to interpretation, as you and everyone who has embraced any form of 'universalism' has most definitely presumed.

Rrriiiight....

 

[Redfin]

Rrriiiight....

Yes, it's gratifying to have my conclusions confirmed, even if by empty assertions... :think:

 

[Nineveh]

Wow balder, neat trick! You have nothing new to add but you can lead the lemmings back to an irrelevant cliff

Being dogmatic about the longevity of a physical body of the condemned is rather irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Does it save balder? No. Will it lessen his torment? No. Does it "prove" all will be saved in direct opposition to Scripture? No.

I guess if the opposition has nothing new to add we can all go chase after a rabbit that's already been fricasseed.

 

[Balder]

Nineveh,

I do not consider it irrelevant if individuals will burn forever, experiencing terrible torment in indestructible bodies which have been newly provided by the Lord. Eternal torment in any guise is cruel and sadistic, in my view, but some versions of the doctrine are worse than others. Aimiel's version is worse than yours. Yours is just the lesser of two evils, it's true, but it's still a difference that I consider significant. Why? Because each scenario communicates something about the mind and heart, the nature, of the Being that would administer such a punishment.

You are asking me to be more concerned with how to escape suffering. I am not worried about suffering forever. I am interested in disabusing individuals of corrupt and sadistic worldviews which they been fooled into believing, and which they inflict upon others under the influence of the misguided belief that they are being "loving." It may be loving to help people avoid immense suffering, but it is not loving to convince people that the Lord of the universe is a monster capable of such cruelty.

Your tasty, toasty Buddhist,

Balder

 

[PKevman]

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

I believe this means everyone comes to faith eventually. You don't. Why you don't is because you believe the eons of chastisment are unending and accomplish nothing, and this is because of the translators you have chosen to trust.

Now, if you are simply going to explain away all the scriptures I provide so your precious eternal torment seems true, then this will be an exercise in futility.

Can you focus on the subject currently at hand? Can you show me where in those verses you supplied it says that the "salvation of all is the gospel". You have said you BELIEVE that they mean the salvation of all is the gospel, but you haven't shown a single verse that SAYS the salvation of all is the gospel, and you have avoided verses that actually do speak directly about the Gospel. We are not at this moment discussing eternal torment, we are simply defining what is THE GOSPEL.

You say THE GOSPEL is the salvation of all. I have laid out a challenge to you to show me where in Scripture it says the salvation of all is the Gospel. Thus far you have not. I have shown you Scriptures which give a completely different definition of THE GOSPEL and you haven't responded to it. I haven't explained away any verses, I am challenging you to show me where it says that the salvation of all is the Gospel. If THE GOSPEL is: "The salvation of all", then as much as THE GOSPEL is mentioned in the New Testament, you should easily be able to show it in connection to THE GOSPEL.

The other thing is that if I don't believe that the salvation of all is the gospel doesn't that by your definition mean that I am rejecting THE GOSPEL?

 

[Nineveh]

Nineveh,

I do not consider it irrelevant if individuals will burn forever, experiencing terrible torment in indestructible bodies which have been newly provided by the Lord. Eternal torment in any guise is cruel and sadistic, in my view, but some versions of the doctrine are worse than others. Aimiel's version is worse than yours. Yours is just the lesser of two evils, it's true, but it's still a difference that I consider significant. Why? Because each scenario communicates something about the mind and heart, the nature, of the Being that would administer such a punishment.

You still don't get it. I told you when this came up the first time you ignore how awful it is to be under the weight of sin. A physical body is really really irrelevant (that makes my view the most heinous, because it apathetic towards the flesh). Look... I'm going to give this my best shot. It's obvious you want to make a big issue of the flesh.

When I found out I was a sinner, God placed (I believe now only some) of the sin on my own "shoulders". I could feel the anger of God burning against me. I repented. Why? Because it was crushing my soul and breaking my "heart". There was nothing physical about it. At that moment I knew I did not want to bear the weight of that sin forever and the only way to be free of it was to humble myself and plead for God to have mercy on me. The options are: Pay for your own sins -or- Accept Christ paid for your sins.

You can make up excuse after excuse why you reject Christ, balder. But in the end, it's just between your heart and Him.

You are asking me to be more concerned with how to escape suffering. I am not worried about suffering forever. I am interested in disabusing individuals of corrupt and sadistic worldviews which they been fooled into believing, and which they inflict upon others under the influence of the misguided belief that they are being "loving." It may be loving to help people avoid immense suffering, but it is not loving to convince people that the Lord of the universe is a monster capable of such cruelty.

Balder, such is the gulf between us. What you see as holy, I see as evil.

 

[Balder]

You still don't get it. I told you when this came up the first time you ignore how awful it is to be under the weight of sin. A physical body is really really irrelevant (that makes my view the most heinous, because it apathetic towards the flesh). Look... I'm going to give this my best shot. It's obvious you want to make a big issue of the flesh.

Actually, I think you don't get it. What makes the "buring bodies" part of this bad is that it is an extra, intentional step taken by God to ensure maximum suffering. It is eternally punitive. This differs, I believe, from your perspective, in which you say God is merely giving sinners what they want" existence apart from Himself. He is not doing something extra to inflict unbearable pain on them, by casting sinners in new, incorruptible bodies into a "furnace" he created.

As I said, your option is bad enough. The scenario preferred by Aimiel and Kevin is overkill.

Balder, such is the gulf between us. What you see as holy, I see as evil.

Yeah, there's a gulf all right. You guys worship an evil tyrant.

 

[PKevman]

The whole point is not what condemns a person, but what saves a person. People focus on the negative aspect of judgment because their heart is hard and they refuse to accept that Christ is the only way to have a relationship with God. So they make up arguments to try to justify this decision, but the real heart of the issue is: Christ is the only way to God.

For example:

Balder: Point blank- Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to Heaven, the ONLY way to be made right with God? Yes or no?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

That is such a lame argument.

How is sending people to be tormented forever in a lake of fire gentlemanly, when bringing them to heaven is not?

How is sending people to be tormented forever in a lake of fire not kidnapping, but bringing them to heaven would be?

Kidnapping is when you take someone somewhere against their will.

God does not do that. God allows people to make their own eternal choices here on earth. Choose to be with Him, or choose to be without Him. A loving Father does not force His love upon His children.

“...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve,... But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” - Joshua 24:15

 

[PKevman]

Yeah, there's a gulf all right. You guys worship an evil tyrant.

An evil tyrant who sacrificed His only perfect and holy Son whom He loves so that people would not have to go to the Lake of Fire.

 

[PKevman]

It is evil to call someone who gave the life of His Son for you an evil tyrant.

 

[Balder]

For example:

Balder: Point blank- Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to Heaven, the ONLY way to be made right with God? Yes or no?

The may you mean that? NO.

 

[Balder]

An evil tyrant who sacrificed His only perfect and holy Son whom He loves so that people would not have to go to the Lake of Fire.

Um, which He Himself made. And no one has to go there unless He makes them.

 

[Redfin]

Kidnapping is when you take someone somewhere against their will. God does not do that.

When the time comes, how many are going willingly to hell?

A loving Father does not force His love upon His children.

I happen to be a loving father, and there are times when I do "force" my love upon my children.

I do it when I deem it necessary for their well-being.

Fortunately that has not been necessary often.

But when it was necessary, I would have been remiss as a "true" father had I failed to do so.

:think:

 

[logos_x]

Can you focus on the subject currently at hand? Can you show me where in those verses you supplied it says that the "salvation of all is the gospel". You have said you BELIEVE that they mean the salvation of all is the gospel, but you haven't shown a single verse that SAYS the salvation of all is the gospel, and you have avoided verses that actually do speak directly about the Gospel. We are not at this moment discussing eternal torment, we are simply defining what is THE GOSPEL.

You say THE GOSPEL is the salvation of all. I have laid out a challenge to you to show me where in Scripture it says the salvation of all is the Gospel. Thus far you have not. I have shown you Scriptures which give a completely different definition of THE GOSPEL and you haven't responded to it. I haven't explained away any verses, I am challenging you to show me where it says that the salvation of all is the Gospel. If THE GOSPEL is: "The salvation of all", then as much as THE GOSPEL is mentioned in the New Testament, you should easily be able to show it in connection to THE GOSPEL.

The other thing is that if I don't believe that the salvation of all is the gospel doesn't that by your definition mean that I am rejecting THE GOSPEL?

While I'm not sure what it is you are trying to establish as a theological way to define the Gospel by apparently expecting that the salvation of all must be present in the same breath as the gospel to be valid...and not expecting the same to occur on your side of the argument, you apparently think that you are going to prove something as though it cannot be done.

So...here goes.

.
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth forever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Kevin..it is literally everywhere. What you seem to be misunderstanding is the outcome of the Gospel and confusing the process making the process the outcome. The outcome is all men come to faith, in the fullness of times.(see again Eph 1:10).

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(1Ti 2:3-6 KJVR)

I have faith that it will be testified in due time, "for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."
(Eph 1:10 WNT)

I see no reason to be ashamed of believing it either.

 

[PKevman]

While I'm not sure what it is you are trying to establish as a theological way to define the Gospel by apparently expecting that the salvation of all must be present in the same breath as the gospel to be valid...and not expecting the same to occur on your side of the argument, you apparently think that you are going to prove something as though it cannot be done.

So...here goes.

.
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth forever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Kevin..it is literally everywhere. What you seem to be misunderstanding is the outcome of the Gospel and confusing the process making the process the outcome. The outcome is all men come to faith, in the fullness of times.(see again Eph 1:10).

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(1Ti 2:3-6 KJVR)

I have faith that it will be testified in due time, "for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."
(Eph 1:10 WNT)

I see no reason to be ashamed of believing it either.

Still nowhere have you shown that the salvation of all is the gospel Stephen. I am sorry if you don't see the point, because it is crystal clear. The salvation of all is not the gospel as defined by Paul. Or are you more qualified to define what the gospel is than Paul is?

Your distorted views of 1 Ti 2:3-6, & Eph. 1:10 cannot change the fact that those verses do not even nearly support your claim that the salvation of all is the gospel. We already showed you what to be testified in due time was talking about and even gave you a supporting text from Galatians that CLEARLY defined that. But besides all of that, you have not yet shown that the salvation of all is THE GOSPEL which is what you claimed. I am not confusing anything here. If the salvation of all is the Gospel please show me where it says that in the Bible or admit that it does not directly say that. (my guess is you won't admit it doesn't say it but will continue to try to twist and turn verses around to try and MAKE them mean that).

There is one Gospel, and it is NOT the salvation of all. Here it is for you again:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Paul's definition of the gospel summarized)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Romans 1: 16 says: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

THE GOSPEL of Christ IS THE POWER OF GOD TO SALVATION FOR EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES!

You avoided my question. Since I reject the statement that the gospel is the salvation of all, therefore I am rejecting the Gospel? This all does not need to be this difficult buddy.

 

[logos_x]

Still nowhere have you shown that the salvation of all is the gospel Stephen. I am sorry if you don't see the point, because it is crystal clear. The salvation of all is not the gospel as defined by Paul. Or are you more qualified to define what the gospel is than Paul is?

Your distorted views of 1 Ti 2:3-6, & Eph. 1:10 cannot change the fact that those verses do not even nearly support your claim that the salvation of all is the gospel. We already showed you what to be testified in due time was talking about and even gave you a supporting text from Galatians that CLEARLY defined that. But besides all of that, you have not yet shown that the salvation of all is THE GOSPEL which is what you claimed. I am not confusing anything here. If the salvation of all is the Gospel please show me where it says that in the Bible or admit that it does not directly say that. (my guess is you won't admit it doesn't say it but will continue to try to twist and turn verses around to try and MAKE them mean that).

There is one Gospel, and it is NOT the salvation of all. Here it is for you again:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Paul's definition of the gospel summarized)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Romans 1: 16 says: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

THE GOSPEL of Christ IS THE POWER OF GOD TO SALVATION FOR EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES!

You avoided my question. Since I reject the statement that the gospel is the salvation of all, therefore I am rejecting the Gospel? This all does not need to be this difficult buddy.

Well I don't understand what makes you think it is so difficult.

Everything you quoted above are things a Biblical Universalist believes, and they certainly don't see any refutation in Paul's presentation.

All that is required for everyone to be saved is for evryone to be given faith...or to come to faith, whichever way you view it.

Is that viewed as an impossibility? It shouldn't.

First there is Ephesians 2:8: "For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God's gift, and is not on the ground of merit-- so that it may be impossible for any one to boast.

Salvation comes through faith, but it has to be given by God and therefore it is not to be boasted about.

This leads to Romans 12:3: "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Putting these together, we arrive at the conclusion that salvation comes through faith, and only God, not man, can give it...and everyone is dealt a measure.

Then there is the TRUTH of 1Timothy 4:10: "and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers.


In order to be the Savior of all mankind, He has to save all mankind. And since salvation comes through faith, He obviously gives faith to all mankind.

Then we find the following in James 5:11 "Behold, we account them blessed who have endured. You have heard of the patience of Job and you have seen the end of the Lord, that the Lord is merciful and compassionate.

This declaration says the the END of the Lord is merciful, not just the beginning. If THAT is true, I honestly don't understand how you cannot recognize that the traditional view of an unending Hell of flames in agony can be the end.

I really think it is quite simple. In fact, if it were not for the fact of "aion: and "aionion" being translated wrongly it would be readilly seen by everyone. By making an "endless" aion out of aion by adding words to scripture, it becomes obscured and deemed impossible in the tradition, and punishment just for punishments sake... and that accomplishes nothing in line with God's desire to save all ...prevents people from seeing God as He really IS. It presents another Jesus and another gospel by doing so.

So, yes, by rejecting the salvation of all you have rejected the Gospel.