BRXII Battle talk

[Nineveh]

I already have faith. I just don't believe the same things many of you do.

Perhaps I should be exact. "Believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead."

 

[Balder]

Perhaps I should be exact. "Believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead."

If you don't believe that, you don't have faith?

 

[Nineveh]

If you don't believe that, you don't have faith?

If you don't believe God raised Jesus from the dead you aren't saved.

"Faith" and "believe" are synonyms.

 

[Balder]

Then no one in the Old Testament was saved.

Jesus said several things about how to realize or come to the Kingdom of God. Paul said some other things. You trust Paul more?

 

[Nineveh]

Then no one in the Old Testament was saved.

That's not true. People of the OT were saved by faith when they believed the Creator God. Hebrews 11.

Jesus said several things about how to realize or come to the Kingdom of God.

Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom which was repent and follow the Law.

Paul said some other things. You trust Paul more?

I trust that Christ chose Paul to be the apostle to the Gentiles with the Gospel of Grace, which is "...confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.".

Merely having faith/believing in something isn't going to cut it.

 

[Balder]

That's not true. People of the OT were saved by faith when they believed the Creator God. Hebrews 11.

Then faith is bigger than you previously defined it. Not limited to that one piece of doctrine, not belief in one (supposedly) historical event.

For me, I have faith that God will not be so petty and cruel as to burn people forever. I have faith he's bigger and better than that.

 

[Nineveh]

Then faith is bigger than you previously defined it. Not limited to that one piece of doctrine, not belief in one (supposedly) historical event.

For this time we are in now? That is our instruction given by Christ through Paul. "...confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

For me, I have faith that God will not be so petty and cruel as to burn people forever. I have faith he's bigger and better than that.

You have already admitted you "really dunno" if Christ raised from the dead, you have no faith at all in Christ. Because of this you will not be forced to be with that God forever. You will get to spend eternity with the god you chose to have faith in, whatever that may be.

 

[Balder]

You have already admitted you "really dunno" if Christ raised from the dead, you have no faith at all in Christ. Because of this you will not be forced to be with that God forever.

Because of this, God will burn me alive forever?

That's petty.

 

[Nineveh]

Because of this, God will burn me alive forever?

That's petty.

No, because of that you will get to be with your god. It's not God's fault your chosen god can not make the torment of your conscience any less.

Did you want to go down a new road with this dialog, or go over the same well worn path again?

 

[Balder]

No, because of that you will get to be with your god. It's not God's fault your chosen god can not make the torment of your conscience any less.

Did you want to go down a new road with this dialog, or go over the same well worn path again?

Your understanding of eternal torment is not as hellish and sadistic as some of your brothers and sisters in Christ -- such as Kevin or Aimiel. Yours is more of a psychological understanding -- that the suffering that is experienced is self-generated, not inflicted from without, and not because you've been given a resurrected body capable of remaining intact after an eternity of being licked by searing flames. Your perspective is closer to mine, as a Buddhist: our own selfishness and bitterness and greed are the direct sources of our suffering, and in hellish conditions, this is primarily what we experience.

However, in your view, you have a God who arbitrarily shuts the door on people after a handful of years, casting them into outer darkness if they've failed to unquestioningly trust the Bible, or presumably if they've never heard and professed faith in the gospel.

I just don't think the universe is set up like this. But we've been down this road before. We don't have to do so again.

 

[logos_x]

This just continues to blow my mind. Stephen we will not say that eternal torment is the Gospel because it is NOT the Gospel. You people keep trying to say we believe that but you are wrong we don't believe that and I have never said that.

And by the way, you said:



That is not in fact what you said Stephen. Here is what I asked:



You answered:



I would like to know how I am trying to twist things and misquote you? You clearly said THE BELIEF in the salvation of all IS the Gospel.

But either way, the salvation of all is not the Gospel and the BELIEF in the salvation of all is NOT the Gospel.

There is only one Gospel Stephen. Which do you say it is? The salvation of all, or the BELIEF in the salvation of all?

Ok, Kevin, I apparently misread your intent. I thought in terms of the Gospel as being the truth...whereas you were writing in terms of the belief being what saves someone.

Sorry.

Now...with that take on things I can see what your objection might be. So, to clarify, I believe that the salvation of all men is the Gospel. The belief, however, isn't a requirement to be saved any more than a belief in eternal torment is.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Nineveh]

Your understanding of eternal torment is not as hellish and sadistic as some of your brothers and sisters in Christ -- such as Kevin or Aimiel. Yours is more of a psychological understanding -- that the suffering that is experienced is self-generated, not inflicted from without

I will let Aimiel and PK speak for themselves, but I doubt either of them believe God is there in the lake inflicting torment on folks.

Your perspective is closer to mine, as a Buddhist: our own selfishness and bitterness and greed are the direct sources of our suffering, and in hellish conditions, this is primarily what we experience.

Your list of "sins" and God's differs. You don't get to define the Law either. I believe it's the actual sin itself that will weigh your soul, adding to that the reality you can no longer escape as you do while alive here on earth, that will bring the pain of remorse and regret all under the umbrella of crushing hopelessness.

However, in your view, you have a God who arbitrarily shuts the door on people after a handful of years, casting them into outer darkness if they've failed to unquestioningly trust the Bible, or presumably if they've never heard and professed faith in the gospel.

God's justice, as His mercy is hardly arbitrary. We are without excuse to remain in rebellion.

I just don't think the universe is set up like this.

Not to be rude but ... so what? Who cares what you think on this issue? You know the truth and reject your salvation for your own ideas, sort of like you making up your own laws.

But we've been down this road before. We don't have to do so again.

Good cuz it's not going anywhere. I wonder why you keep bringing up the same questions that have been discussed with you repeatedly. Why do you insist? Are you hoping for different answers?

 

[Ecumenicist]

...that will bring the pain of remorse and regret all under the umbrella of crushing hopelessness.

Great line Nin. I don't think it applies to Balder, but it has a poetic, Dante-esque
completeness about it. Is that original?

I'm serious, its a great line. I'm picturing Max Von Sydow saying it, very dramatic.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Ok, Kevin, I apparently misread your intent. I thought in terms of the Gospel as being the truth...whereas you were writing in terms of the belief being what saves someone.

Sorry.

Now...with that take on things I can see what your objection might be. So, to clarify, I believe that the salvation of all men is the Gospel. The belief, however, isn't a requirement to be saved any more than a belief in eternal torment is.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Careful, Logos,

You start making too much sense, he'll start pretending to ignore you too...

 

[Nineveh]

I don't think it applies to Balder

Balder does not believe in Jesus, dave. Where will he get his hope when he has chosen to be outside?

 

[Balder]

I will let Aimiel and PK speak for themselves, but I doubt either of them believe God is there in the lake inflicting torment on folks.

You should speak directly to them, if they have wrong ideas about what the Bible teaches, and set them straight. Because they clearly believe that eternal torment consists of physically being burned alive in the Lake of Fire forever. God may not be doing anything else to these poor souls in imperishable bodies, but giving them imperishable bodies and then throwing them in a fire is bad enough.

Your list of "sins" and God's differs. You don't get to define the Law either. I believe it's the actual sin itself that will weigh your soul, adding to that the reality you can no longer escape as you do while alive here on earth, that will bring the pain of remorse and regret all under the umbrella of crushing hopelessness.

My list differs from yours. You believe you have God's list, but you can't prove it.

I wrote:I just don't think the universe is set up like this.

Not to be rude but ... so what? Who cares what you think on this issue? You know the truth and reject your salvation for your own ideas, sort of like you making up your own laws.

If I thought what you believe and what the Bible teaches was the truth, I would follow it. I'm telling you what I believe.

Good cuz it's not going anywhere. I wonder why you keep bringing up the same questions that have been discussed with you repeatedly. Why do you insist? Are you hoping for different answers?

Yes, I'm hoping one day you'll see the light.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Balder does not believe in Jesus, dave. Where will he get his hope when he has chosen to be outside?

Certainly not the Jesus you present. I don't believe in "that Jesus" either.

 

[red77]

Great line Nin. I don't think it applies to Balder, but it has a poetic, Dante-esque
completeness about it. Is that original?

I'm serious, its a great line. I'm picturing Max Von Sydow saying it, very dramatic.

Indeed, "crushing hopelessness" sums up the doctrine of eternal torment to a tee, love doesnt actually conquer everything after all...

 

[Aimiel]

Certainly not the Jesus you present. I don't believe in "that Jesus" either.

The problem lies in the fact that Nineveh presents the 'Jesus' of The Bible, and yours is 'another gospel' which makes you accurssed.

 

[red77]

The problem lies in the fact that Nineveh presents the 'Jesus' of The Bible, and yours is 'another gospel' which makes you accurssed.

Is this the Jesus that said that he was the saviour of the world? Or just some of it.......