BRXII Battle talk
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PKevman
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logos_x said:
You do when you say that the salvation of all is the Gospel. Because Paul doesn't say that anywhere.
Ok stop the presses. It is BY GRACE you have been saved THROUGH FAITH!
In ephesians 2:8-9 what do you say is God's gift? Is it your assertion that faith is God's gift?
Better yet, in Ephesians 2:8 who is the YOU that Paul is addressing when he says:
"For by grace YOU have been saved?"
Faith has to be given by God? You have just completely distorted the meaning of Ephesians 2:8-9
Actually how about looking at the verse in context Stephen and looking at WHO Paul is addressing and why? Or is that not a part of forming theological positions for you?
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.
Nowhere in this Scripture does it say that God gives faith to all people, which is what you asserted in meant when you pulled it out of context and misquoted it.
Except for WE haven't arrived at this conclusion at all. You might have, but not based upon what those verses actually say!
And p.s: You still have not shown a single verse which states that the salvation of all is the Gospel!
Now you are going to try to convince me that the Bible says that God gives every man faith when it doesn't say that. In Romans 12:1, Paul CLEARLY indicates that he is talking to the brethren in that passage of Scripture. And the statement is actually:
"God has dealt to each one a measure of faith." Each one of whom? The brethren.
He further says in verse #4:
4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function,
You cannot make up theological positions based upon verses yanked out of context and hope to see them stand up to close scrutiny.
Knight said:
A loving father WILL in fact force his love on their children when its for their own well being, if I had a child who I saw was about to inject him/herself with herion would it be more loving to yank the needle out of their hand and get them help ot just let them go ahead and think "well, its their choice"? :think:
The plain fact is its ludicrous to try and equate God with being a 'gentleman' because he wont 'force' his beings to be with him but he IS a gentleman if he "allows" them to go to a place of endless torment (of one type or another)....
logos_x
New member
PastorKevin said:
Kevin, Paul says it everywhere. Who do you think said 1 Timothy 4:10, Ghandi? Or God all in all when all things are in subjection?
Yes, it is the assertion of Paul that faith is a result of grace, and is a gift of God.
"Who" the gift saves is the person it saves.
I have distorted what in Ephesians 2:8-9?
What about the context requires an unending aion of chastisement, Kevin? Who Paul was addressing was the church in Ephesis, and by extension all of the church. What is your point?
God dealt the faith, Kevin...it doesn't come from man.
Again, what is your point?
What would be His intention if He does not? It is faith that saves. If He does not give the faith required to be saved to all men He cannot save all men, and cannot be the savior of all mankind...which Paul clearly says that He is.
Are you now going to say that God deliberatly witholds what is necessary for all men to be saved while saying that He wants to save all men? Did God lie when He inspired the men who wrote those words to pass on to us...or is it true? If THAT isn't true, then what IS true?
And...what is the reason for that, Kevin? Is it not because you believe in an endless aion of chastisement that changes, for them at least, nothing forever?
Again, we are back to the circular reasoning imposed by the plausibility structure that has been foisted upon us by the tradition and the inaccurate translations of aion in SOME English Bibles? By making that aion, or aions..."endless", when in fact the Greek does NOT, and ONLY because of this, then everything Paul, Jesus, the Prophets, and the Apostles said about the end and the ages is derailed.
It's very clear...unless you are blinded by theologians that have foisted an endless aion or aions of chastisement upon us through Roman doctrines.
WHO dealt it to the brethren, Kevin? And it was that DEALING that made them "brethren", wasn't it?
Exactly!
Aimiel
Well-known member
That isn't love, it is tyranny. God isn't a tyrant. Get it through your head. :think:red77 said:
Yes, it is, a child of God, who grows, learns and is even promised a blessing, just for reading the book (the only one which does so, by the way). God didn't give us clear explanations for anything in the spirit realm, for one thing they don't fit in us. The spirit realm is above our understanding. We have a finite number of brain cells, and knowledge of the infinite just doesn't fit. For another thing, He has decided to retain the mystery that He is and has, He is The Mystery. When He has finished His Mystery, as He has declared to His servants, the prophets, we will let you know about it.
logos_x
New member
Aimiel said:
You know what Aim...you have a warped view of love.
Would it be "tyranny" to rescue someone, against their will, from a burning building?
Or would it be abusive to make someone burn with no intent than to let them suffer?
Would it be gentlmanly to make a torture chamber for those who cannot understand what you want, or to correct their error and cause them to live happily with you in the process?
Eternal torment is unecessary in order to free people from tyranny. get it through your head. :think:
Aimiel said:
to act out of love to stop a child from causing themselves pain or even death is hardly 'tyrannical', I assume that were a child of yours to place themselves in mortal danger you would use 'force' to see that they came to no harm?
As to the rest it seems that you are in no way sure how to interpret the book of Revelation and that you are claiming to be a prophet? Is this correct?
logos_x
New member
An interesting fact about C. S. Lewis, who apparently recognized something of what I'm presenting, at least, in the writings of Paul...
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/religion/chesterton.html
(emphasis added)
If you want to probe something else I found interesting then consider the fact that when C. S. Lewis began writing Christian apologetics as in THE PROBLEM OF PAIN, he said that the orthodox Chrisitan doctrine of hell had "the full support of Scripture." BUT . . . a few years later when writing THE GREAT DIVORCE, Lewis introduced as a character, George MacDonald (who was a real-life Christian universalist from a generation or two before Lewis), and Lewis had that character say, "St. Paul talked as if all men would be saved." Neither did Lewis have the angel in that novel deny MacDonald's interpretation of St. Paul's words, but only had the angel reply that it was not for man to ask such questions. So in Lewis's opinion, God's ultimate plan remained hidden from prying human eyes. I believe in that same novel Lewis also quoted a Catholic mystic's saying that "All manner of things will be well." My point is that even C. S. Lewis felt strongly enough about that hidden possibility to RAISE the question in one of his novels for all his readers to ponder. I also read George MacDonald's novel LILITH in which he employed sleep as a means of healing tortured souls, a cosmic sleep that preceded salvation of all. MacDonald was a universalist Christian minister who also wrote the tombstone poem Martin Elginbrode:
Here Lie I, Martin Elginbrod
God have mercy on my soul,
As I would do if I were God,
and ye were Martin Elginbrod
C. S. Lewis praised the novel, LILITH and also called George MacDonald "my spiritual mentor."
Here Lie I, Martin Elginbrod
God have mercy on my soul,
As I would do if I were God,
and ye were Martin Elginbrod
C. S. Lewis praised the novel, LILITH and also called George MacDonald "my spiritual mentor."
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/religion/chesterton.html
(emphasis added)
Aimiel
Well-known member
Children aren't subject to judgement, only those who are accountable for their sins. God doesn't prevent anyone from committing suicide, and also won't stop someone from going to hell, by force; as I said, because He isn't a tyrant. He wants men to love Him for Who He is, not who they picture Him as.red77 said:
No.
ApologeticJedi
New member
red77 said:
I've read of some parents who duct taped their children to their beds to keep them from disobeying .. .and yes they are tyrannical.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
Balder said:
That's because your focus is on your flesh. You like to go on about "spiritual" matters without actually thinking about the ramifications.
1. Torment inflicted comes from within.
2. It won't stop if the body is not present.
Either way it goes down, it will be an eternity of torment. Jesus tells us over and over how awful it will be.
...said the pagan.
logos_x
New member
Nineveh said:
The difference between the Christian and the non-Christian is not one of salvation. Salvation is given by grace to everyone. Christians are simply those charged by God with a special mission, this is the "especially" of 1 Tomothy 4:10, as well as what believers get to experience. The meaning of being a Christian is not working at your own little salvation, but changing human history. Also those that are Christ's will be the first to rise again from death, at the return of Christ to establish His reign from Jerusalem during the Millenium BEFORE the judgment when everyone is risen, some to the life of the ages, some to suffer second death. Later, there will be a new heavens and earth, and then those in the second death are invited in.(see Rev. 22:1-17)
This is what the Bible outlines for us.
That is why the Apostle Paul wrote the following and makes it clear that there is an ORDER within the resurection and eventually God finally getting to be "all in all":
For if none of the dead are raised to life, then Christ has not risen; and if Christ has not risen, your faith is a vain thing--you are still in your sins.
It follows also that those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
If in this present life we have a *hope* resting on Christ, and nothing more, we are more to be pitied than all the rest of the world. But, in reality, Christ *has* risen from among the dead, being the first to do so of those who are asleep.
For seeing that death came through man, through man comes also the resurrection of the dead.
For just as through Adam all die, so also through Christ all will be made alive again.
But this will happen to each in the right order--
Christ having been the first to rise, and afterwards Christ's people rising at His return. Later on, comes the End, when He is to surrender the Kingship to God, the Father, when He shall have overthrown all other government and all other authority and power.
For He must continue King until He shall have put all His enemies under His feet.
The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death; for He will have put all things in subjection under His feet. And when He shall have declared that "All things are in subjection," it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him.
But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.
(1Co 15:16-28 WNT)
It follows also that those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
If in this present life we have a *hope* resting on Christ, and nothing more, we are more to be pitied than all the rest of the world. But, in reality, Christ *has* risen from among the dead, being the first to do so of those who are asleep.
For seeing that death came through man, through man comes also the resurrection of the dead.
For just as through Adam all die, so also through Christ all will be made alive again.
But this will happen to each in the right order--
Christ having been the first to rise, and afterwards Christ's people rising at His return. Later on, comes the End, when He is to surrender the Kingship to God, the Father, when He shall have overthrown all other government and all other authority and power.
For He must continue King until He shall have put all His enemies under His feet.
The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death; for He will have put all things in subjection under His feet. And when He shall have declared that "All things are in subjection," it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him.
But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.
(1Co 15:16-28 WNT)
Your point's 1 and 2 above may well be right, Nin...but RESURRECTION, and the order involved, is the key to unlocking the truth about the outcome.
Salvation IS NOT given to by grace to everyone. That is not Biblical. Forgiveness of sins under the law is the gift given to everyone by grace. Forgiveness of sins and salvation are not the same thing. Christ's finished work upon the cross was the forgiveness of sins make salvation possible. The forgiveness of sins tore down the wall of sin the seperated men from God since the Covenant was formed with Israel in the desert. Jesus tore that wall down by living the perfect life under the law and taking our sins to the cross.logos_x said:
Salvation is different.
Romans 10:8-10 (New International Version)
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[a] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[a] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Salvation is a confession of faith. It is available to all but only few accept it.
You keep insisting that for God to be all in all everybody must be with Him. Scripture does not say that. Prisinors as still subject to the government the jaild them. Even Satan is still subject to God. Why do you think Jesus could so easilly cast out demons? Demons know they must obey. That does not mean they love and serve God.
Read, "Classic Christianity" by Bob George. This book talks very clearly about what Chrsit did on the cross and how that relates to salvation. The book is not centered on any discussion of hell. It just looks at what the gospel says and what it means. Take a look at it ans see what you think.
logos_x
New member
CabinetMaker said:
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(1Ti 2:3-6 KJV)
Aimiel said:
The analogy was whether or not it would be more loving to use force to stop a child from doing themselves harm, in the case of a parent the child may already be an adult but that doesnt negate the parent using force if it is in the best interests of their children, if your child was about to inject themselves with drugs and you had the opportunity to take the needle away would you do it or not?
Then what were you saying about revelation being full of mystery and that you and other servants would be able to decipher its message? The thing is you cant have it both ways Aimiel, on the one hand you say that the message is so simple that a little child can understand it (including ET) and then in the book where the lake of fire is actually mentioned its too complicated for the average person to understand!
Aimiel
Well-known member
Wrong. It is offered to everyone. Not everyone receives it. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him. He has given every man 'the measure of faith' but not every man makes use of it. Some ignore it and end up in hell. Others make use of it and get saved. Still others presume upon it and create imaginary uses for it.logos_x said:
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