First
We are justified by the faith of Christ.
Second, we are saved in Christ.
simple
Battle Royale XIV discussion thread
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
We are justified by the faith of Christ.
Second, we are saved in Christ.
simple
This is somewhat comical, and shows how ingrained some of the KJO crowd rely solely on one version.
Song of Solomon 2:12 ESV
The flowers appear on the earth, the time of singing has come, and the voice of the turtledove is heard in our land.
Song of Solomon 2:12 KJV
The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;
brandplucked
New member
The Bible Agnostic's Mantra
The Bible Agnostic's Mantra
Hi BV. We see here your typical bible agnostic mantra - "Yea, hath God said....?"
That is why you are a bible agnostic.
Happy Trails
The Bible Agnostic's Mantra
"
Hi BV. We see here your typical bible agnostic mantra - "Yea, hath God said....?"
That is why you are a bible agnostic.
Happy Trails
brandplucked
New member
The King James Bible is the complete and inerrant words of God.
The King James Bible is the complete and inerrant words of God.
Interesting that YOU think you can "correct" God's words and can determine for yourself what you think should or should not be in the Book.
The King James Bible is the complete and inerrant words of God.
Interesting that YOU think you can "correct" God's words and can determine for yourself what you think should or should not be in the Book.
brandplucked
New member
the "rules"
the "rules"
Hey, Bob. I didn't answer AGAIN the same questions you keep bringing up, just because you may have rephrased them. I already gave you my answer. You just didn't like it.
I am not going to jump through all your hoops.
And as for my "pre-written material", I have been getting the same Bible agnostic stuff you and Will D. have been peddling for years now. You guys aren't very original. So do you expect me to type in the same answers to the same questions all fresh for you just because you can't get your act together within 48 hours? I trow not.
the "rules"
Hey, Bob. I didn't answer AGAIN the same questions you keep bringing up, just because you may have rephrased them. I already gave you my answer. You just didn't like it.
I am not going to jump through all your hoops.
And as for my "pre-written material", I have been getting the same Bible agnostic stuff you and Will D. have been peddling for years now. You guys aren't very original. So do you expect me to type in the same answers to the same questions all fresh for you just because you can't get your act together within 48 hours? I trow not.
I do not see where he jumped to that conclusion?
brandplucked
New member
If the bible agnostics had an original thought.....
If the bible agnostics had an original thought.....
One bible agnostic posts to another -
Originally Posted by tetelestai
I wonder if Kinney knows the difference between a turtle and a tortoise?
I ask because apparently Kinney doesn't know the difference between a turtle and a turtledove.
Golly, guys. You really have me stumped this time. Looks like you have been reading way too much James Wite Out.
May I suggest you fellas try to learn your own English language a little better.
James White follies
THE TURTLE
= turtledove
James White, in his book the King James Only Controversy, pokes fun at the King James Bible's use of the word "turtle" when referring to the turtledove.
Mr. White says on page 235 in the section titled Problems in the KJV: "This is almost as humorous as Song of Songs 2:12, "The flowers appear on the earth: the time of the singing of the birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land."
Then Mr. White comments: "Turtles are not known for their voices, and how these would be connected with flowers and the singing of birds is unknown. Of course, the passage is not referring to turtles at all, but to the turtledove, as the modern translations recognize."
Mr. White himself does not believe any Bible in any language or any text, be it Hebrew or Greek, is the preserved, inspired words of God. Mr. White used to work for the NASB committee and apparently doesn't mind representing a version like the NASB that says God was deceived by the children of Israel in Psalms 78:36, or that God doesn't take away life in 2 Samuel 14:14; or that there are two Gods, one not seen and one begotten in John 1:18; or that Jonah was not swallowed by a whale but by a "sea monster" in Matthew 12:40.
Likewise, the NASB departs from the Hebrew texts scores of times and is continually changing its underlying Greek texts from one edition to the next; but he does have a bee in his bonnet with the KJB's use of the word "turtle" instead of turtledove.
Such are the ways of those who attack God's pure words as found in the King James Holy Bible.
Here are a few facts James may not be aware of. The Hebrew word is translated both as turtle and turtledove in the King James Bible and several others too. One of the meanings of the word turtle is a turtledove, and the context always indicates that we are speaking about a bird and not the shelled reptile.
Here is another example of context clearly showing the Bible is speaking of a bird when it uses the word turtle. In Jeremiah 8:7 we read: "Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the TURTLE and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD."
It may surprise Mr. White, but not only does the King James Bible say "turtle" in the Song of Solomon 2:12 and in Jeremiah 8:7 but so also do Wycliffe 1395, the Douay Rheims 1582 - "THE TURTLE, and the swallow, and the stork have observed the time of their coming", the Geneva Bible 1599, the Bill Bible 1671, Webster's 1833 translation, the Calvin Bible 1855, The Jewish Family Bible 1864, the Revised Version 1885 - "the TURTLE and the swallow and the crane observe the time of their coming", the Lesser Bible 1853 - "and THE TURTLE, and the swallow, atad the crane observe the time of their coming", Noyes Translation 1869, the Lesser Bible - "and the TURTLE, and the swallow" (Jer.8:7) J.B. Rotherham's Emphasized Bible 1902 - "the voice of THE TURTLE is heard in our land", The Ancient Hebrew Bible 1907, The Jewish Publication Society's 1917 translation - "the voice of the TURTLE is heard in our land", the 1936 Hebrew Publishing Company's "The Holy Scriptures", Young's literal translation 1898, the 1950 Douay version, The Revised Geneva Bible 2005.
Other English Bibles that also have TURTLE for turtledove are The Word of Yah 1993, the 1994 KJV 21st Century version, the 1998 Third Millennium Bible, the Holy Scriptures Jubilee Bible of 2010, the 2001 Urim-Thummin Version, The Holy Scriptures Jewish Publication Society 1997, the Revised Geneva Bible 2005, the Torah Transliteration Scripture of 2008, Bond Slave Version 2009, Hebraic Transliteration Scripture 2010, the Biblos Interlinear Bible 2011 - "the TURTLE and the crane", Conservative Bible 2011, The Work of God's Children Illustrated Bible 2011 - "the TURTLE and the crane" and The Revised Douay-Rheims Bible 2012 - "the TURTLE and the crane"
The Bible itself is its own dictionary, for those who have eyes to see and are using the right Bible. In Leviticus chapter 12:6-8 we see the law concerning the ritual purification of the woman who gives birth to either a son or a daughter.
Among the sacrifices she is to bring if able are "a lamb...and a young pigeon, or A TURTLEDOVE for a sin offering." And if she were too poor to bring the lamb, "then she shall bring TWO TURTLES, or two young pigeons" for the burnt offering and the sin offering.
Smith's Bible Dictionary
Turtle, turtledove Turtur auritus (Heb. tor ) The name is phonetic, evidently derived from the plaintive cooing of the bird.
Some dictionaries do not even list "turtle", meaning the turtledove, as archaic.
Webster's 1913 Dictionary Turtle noun. Anglo Saxon. turtle, L. turtur; probably of imitative origin. (Zoöl.) The turtledove.
Definitions from The Online Plain Text English Dictionary: Turtle * (n.) Any one of the numerous species of Testudinata, especially a sea turtle, or chelonian. * (n.) The curved plate in which the form is held in a type-revolving cylinder press. *(n.) The turtledove.
The Complete Oxford English Dictionary gives dove as the first meaning of the word turtle and the reptile as the second meaning. Even Dictionary.com tells us that the word "turtle" means "turtledove". Type in "turtle". Then scroll down to Turtle #2. = turtledove.
A similar word in English that can have several meanings is the simple word cow. When we say cow, are we referring to the bovine creature that gives milk, or to a whale, a seal or an elephant? The context will usually tell us which one is meant. In every case where the word "turtle" is used in the King James Bible and all the others listed that have come both before and after the King James Bible, it is clear that the bird also known as the turtle dove is intended. Mr. White is again straining at gnats and mocking the time tested word of God as found in the King James Bible.
Here is the link to a short article by another King James Bible believer about the "turtle" being another word for the turtledove and how the English word itself is an onomatopoetic sound of the bird's call.
http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/turtle-or-turtledove-in-song-of-solomon-212-et-al
More about the winged turtle from the internet. Another Bible believer, John Hinton, posted this article at one of the Bible clubs.
Turtles were mentioned several times in the works of Shakespeare.
Paulina in Winter's Tale refers to herself as a turtle:
"There's time enough for that;
Lest they desire upon this push to trouble
Your joys with like relation. Go together,
You precious winners all; your exultation
Partake to every one. I, an old TURTLE,
Will wing me to some wither'd bough and there
My mate, that's never to be found again,
Lament till I am lost."
Perhaps if White professed to be a scholar of the English language, instead of a professed biblical scholar, he would ridicule Shakespeare for writing about flying turtles.
He might also have been inclined to ridicule Shakespeare for the words of Troilus who in Troilus and Cressida uses the metaphor of flight in reference to turtles:
"Troilus "O virtuous fight,
When right with right wars who shall be most right!
True swains in love shall in the world to come
Approve their truths by Troilus: when their rhymes,
Full of protest, of oath and big compare,
Want similes, truth tired with iteration,
As true as steel, as plantage to the moon,
As sun to day, as TURTLE to her mate..."
Similarly he might declare Shakespeare to be stupid for the words of Petruccio and Katherine in Taming of the Shrew:
"Petruccio: O slow-winged TURTLE! shall a buzzard take thee?
Katherine: Ay, for a TURTLE, as he takes a buzzard."
Mr. James White might well ask with an upraised nose and a snort - "Whoever heard of a winged turtle?" He might then take all of these passages and translate them into a modern dumbed-down English that he and his followers might be able to understand without having to rely on the use of too many brain cells.
If the bible agnostics had an original thought.....
One bible agnostic posts to another -
Originally Posted by tetelestai
I wonder if Kinney knows the difference between a turtle and a tortoise?
I ask because apparently Kinney doesn't know the difference between a turtle and a turtledove.
Golly, guys. You really have me stumped this time. Looks like you have been reading way too much James Wite Out.
May I suggest you fellas try to learn your own English language a little better.
James White follies
THE TURTLE
= turtledove
James White, in his book the King James Only Controversy, pokes fun at the King James Bible's use of the word "turtle" when referring to the turtledove.
Mr. White says on page 235 in the section titled Problems in the KJV: "This is almost as humorous as Song of Songs 2:12, "The flowers appear on the earth: the time of the singing of the birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land."
Then Mr. White comments: "Turtles are not known for their voices, and how these would be connected with flowers and the singing of birds is unknown. Of course, the passage is not referring to turtles at all, but to the turtledove, as the modern translations recognize."
Mr. White himself does not believe any Bible in any language or any text, be it Hebrew or Greek, is the preserved, inspired words of God. Mr. White used to work for the NASB committee and apparently doesn't mind representing a version like the NASB that says God was deceived by the children of Israel in Psalms 78:36, or that God doesn't take away life in 2 Samuel 14:14; or that there are two Gods, one not seen and one begotten in John 1:18; or that Jonah was not swallowed by a whale but by a "sea monster" in Matthew 12:40.
Likewise, the NASB departs from the Hebrew texts scores of times and is continually changing its underlying Greek texts from one edition to the next; but he does have a bee in his bonnet with the KJB's use of the word "turtle" instead of turtledove.
Such are the ways of those who attack God's pure words as found in the King James Holy Bible.
Here are a few facts James may not be aware of. The Hebrew word is translated both as turtle and turtledove in the King James Bible and several others too. One of the meanings of the word turtle is a turtledove, and the context always indicates that we are speaking about a bird and not the shelled reptile.
Here is another example of context clearly showing the Bible is speaking of a bird when it uses the word turtle. In Jeremiah 8:7 we read: "Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the TURTLE and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD."
It may surprise Mr. White, but not only does the King James Bible say "turtle" in the Song of Solomon 2:12 and in Jeremiah 8:7 but so also do Wycliffe 1395, the Douay Rheims 1582 - "THE TURTLE, and the swallow, and the stork have observed the time of their coming", the Geneva Bible 1599, the Bill Bible 1671, Webster's 1833 translation, the Calvin Bible 1855, The Jewish Family Bible 1864, the Revised Version 1885 - "the TURTLE and the swallow and the crane observe the time of their coming", the Lesser Bible 1853 - "and THE TURTLE, and the swallow, atad the crane observe the time of their coming", Noyes Translation 1869, the Lesser Bible - "and the TURTLE, and the swallow" (Jer.8:7) J.B. Rotherham's Emphasized Bible 1902 - "the voice of THE TURTLE is heard in our land", The Ancient Hebrew Bible 1907, The Jewish Publication Society's 1917 translation - "the voice of the TURTLE is heard in our land", the 1936 Hebrew Publishing Company's "The Holy Scriptures", Young's literal translation 1898, the 1950 Douay version, The Revised Geneva Bible 2005.
Other English Bibles that also have TURTLE for turtledove are The Word of Yah 1993, the 1994 KJV 21st Century version, the 1998 Third Millennium Bible, the Holy Scriptures Jubilee Bible of 2010, the 2001 Urim-Thummin Version, The Holy Scriptures Jewish Publication Society 1997, the Revised Geneva Bible 2005, the Torah Transliteration Scripture of 2008, Bond Slave Version 2009, Hebraic Transliteration Scripture 2010, the Biblos Interlinear Bible 2011 - "the TURTLE and the crane", Conservative Bible 2011, The Work of God's Children Illustrated Bible 2011 - "the TURTLE and the crane" and The Revised Douay-Rheims Bible 2012 - "the TURTLE and the crane"
The Bible itself is its own dictionary, for those who have eyes to see and are using the right Bible. In Leviticus chapter 12:6-8 we see the law concerning the ritual purification of the woman who gives birth to either a son or a daughter.
Among the sacrifices she is to bring if able are "a lamb...and a young pigeon, or A TURTLEDOVE for a sin offering." And if she were too poor to bring the lamb, "then she shall bring TWO TURTLES, or two young pigeons" for the burnt offering and the sin offering.
Smith's Bible Dictionary
Turtle, turtledove Turtur auritus (Heb. tor ) The name is phonetic, evidently derived from the plaintive cooing of the bird.
Some dictionaries do not even list "turtle", meaning the turtledove, as archaic.
Webster's 1913 Dictionary Turtle noun. Anglo Saxon. turtle, L. turtur; probably of imitative origin. (Zoöl.) The turtledove.
Definitions from The Online Plain Text English Dictionary: Turtle * (n.) Any one of the numerous species of Testudinata, especially a sea turtle, or chelonian. * (n.) The curved plate in which the form is held in a type-revolving cylinder press. *(n.) The turtledove.
The Complete Oxford English Dictionary gives dove as the first meaning of the word turtle and the reptile as the second meaning. Even Dictionary.com tells us that the word "turtle" means "turtledove". Type in "turtle". Then scroll down to Turtle #2. = turtledove.
A similar word in English that can have several meanings is the simple word cow. When we say cow, are we referring to the bovine creature that gives milk, or to a whale, a seal or an elephant? The context will usually tell us which one is meant. In every case where the word "turtle" is used in the King James Bible and all the others listed that have come both before and after the King James Bible, it is clear that the bird also known as the turtle dove is intended. Mr. White is again straining at gnats and mocking the time tested word of God as found in the King James Bible.
Here is the link to a short article by another King James Bible believer about the "turtle" being another word for the turtledove and how the English word itself is an onomatopoetic sound of the bird's call.
http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/turtle-or-turtledove-in-song-of-solomon-212-et-al
More about the winged turtle from the internet. Another Bible believer, John Hinton, posted this article at one of the Bible clubs.
Turtles were mentioned several times in the works of Shakespeare.
Paulina in Winter's Tale refers to herself as a turtle:
"There's time enough for that;
Lest they desire upon this push to trouble
Your joys with like relation. Go together,
You precious winners all; your exultation
Partake to every one. I, an old TURTLE,
Will wing me to some wither'd bough and there
My mate, that's never to be found again,
Lament till I am lost."
Perhaps if White professed to be a scholar of the English language, instead of a professed biblical scholar, he would ridicule Shakespeare for writing about flying turtles.
He might also have been inclined to ridicule Shakespeare for the words of Troilus who in Troilus and Cressida uses the metaphor of flight in reference to turtles:
"Troilus "O virtuous fight,
When right with right wars who shall be most right!
True swains in love shall in the world to come
Approve their truths by Troilus: when their rhymes,
Full of protest, of oath and big compare,
Want similes, truth tired with iteration,
As true as steel, as plantage to the moon,
As sun to day, as TURTLE to her mate..."
Similarly he might declare Shakespeare to be stupid for the words of Petruccio and Katherine in Taming of the Shrew:
"Petruccio: O slow-winged TURTLE! shall a buzzard take thee?
Katherine: Ay, for a TURTLE, as he takes a buzzard."
Mr. James White might well ask with an upraised nose and a snort - "Whoever heard of a winged turtle?" He might then take all of these passages and translate them into a modern dumbed-down English that he and his followers might be able to understand without having to rely on the use of too many brain cells.
I've been reading too much Will Can He going to great detail about how "turtle" and "turtledove" mean the same thing.
When in reality, if the KJV had used the word "turtledove" in both places, it would have been clearer (ie. an improvement).
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
GodsfreeWill and Bob,
(just one man's opinion)
Supernatural intervention is usually reserved for the pillar of fire or Joshua's long day and is clearly God breaking His own natural laws by which we are governed.
With regard to His revelation to us, God does not break natural laws but inspires (breathes into) holy men of His choosing and uses their personalities; both limitations and strengths. These holy men spake as they were moved (inspired) by the Holy Ghost and the product was truth from God. Inspiration did not attach itself to the words, phrases or sentences in the originals because inspiration was designed for individuals only and, therefore, could not carry through to the copies or translations. The product, however, was exactly what God wanted deposited here on earth.
Neither did God (in my opinion) break supernatural laws in preserving His words to all generations but, rather, used them. In this respect it is safe to say that Erasmus was given gifts, as all men of faith are, that God used, in history, in the long process of fulfilling His promise to preserve His truth for those who look for it. Erasmus was not guided in ways differing from a dedicated preacher, longsuffering missionary or faithful Hebrew scribe. Neverthess, I believe he was used of God. If I am called upon to put a label on it I would say this.
God works in the hearts and minds of men of common faith in a way that is uncommon to the world and can only be recognized by others of common faith. The fact that God can work so effectively, in a ruined world, is testimony to His greatness and a slap in the face to His enemies.
Later addition to this comment: Mr. Kinney may/may not agree with what I have said here and should not be construed as his opinions.
Last edited:
Yeah, I'm sure those turtles yappin' keep all the neighbors up at night!
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
brandplucked
New member
The King James Bible is the complete and inerrant words of God.
The King James Bible is the complete and inerrant words of God.
Well, Tambora. Maybe YOU should just go all the way like so many others think they can do today and write your own bible version. You know...you can then correct all those errors you think you have found in all bible versions (you obviously don't believe that ANY of them are inerrant) and maybe you will become famous and make a boat load of money in the process. Who knows? It boggles the mind just to think of the possibilities
The King James Bible is the complete and inerrant words of God.
Well, Tambora. Maybe YOU should just go all the way like so many others think they can do today and write your own bible version. You know...you can then correct all those errors you think you have found in all bible versions (you obviously don't believe that ANY of them are inerrant) and maybe you will become famous and make a boat load of money in the process. Who knows? It boggles the mind just to think of the possibilities
In the first place, I never said that the word "turtle" being used was an ERROR.
I said "turtledove" would be an improvement if used in both places.
YOU are the one saying that the KJV cannot be improved upon.
Not me.
I think PJ just left his toy outside, while wearing his Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles pee jammies.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
If we can all get together and come to the conclusion that Shakespeare made a spelling error (or maybe it was his printer) and change his original works to reflect our superior knowledge, it would be best for all of us.
Let us change history for the better. No more will we ever see, in print, his obvious mistakes. It will be blotted from our memory. "Out, damned spot! Out, I say!... What need we fear who knows it, when none can call our power to account?..."
This nasty original will be a thing of the past:
Here the anthem doth commence:
Love and constancy is dead;
Phoenix and the Turtle fled
In a mutual flame from hence.
Let us change history for the better. No more will we ever see, in print, his obvious mistakes. It will be blotted from our memory. "Out, damned spot! Out, I say!... What need we fear who knows it, when none can call our power to account?..."
This nasty original will be a thing of the past:
Here the anthem doth commence:
Love and constancy is dead;
Phoenix and the Turtle fled
In a mutual flame from hence.
JoshuaTheRed
New member
No sir. I saw the video listing for your debate with James White, but I have not had the chance to watch it yet. I will check it out and the Battle Royale X. Thanks.
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Rev. Enyart,
If these are in fact an accurate summary of the pre-debate agreed upon rules, then I stand corrected.
AMR
Thanks AMR!