basic Genesis cosmology 7: the canopy

Interplanner

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7, the canopy. We find attention to Gen 1 and 6 about waters above the earth, distinct from those on the earth. Ie, a canopy. We find in Gen 6 in the account of the flood that the canopy crashes. The idea of a greenhouse effect is inevitable. 2:6 says there was ground irrigation but not rain, just spring-fed streams and rivers.
A greenhouse effect would leave evidence and we do have tropical plants preserved under the Sahara desert.
A collapsing canopy event means a sudden ice age and then the retreat of ice due to warmer surface temperatures. All of this has left evidence.
 

Jonahdog

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Although a substantial water vapor canopy would have the early earth like Venus today.
But keep up with your mythology. It is amusing to continue to see people try to make the Bible consistent with the real world.
 

Interplanner

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Although a substantial water vapor canopy would have the early earth like Venus today.
But keep up with your mythology. It is amusing to continue to see people try to make the Bible consistent with the real world.



What would those conditions be? There has been (matter of fact) discussion here about a climate that was so oxygen rich, the dragonflies were the size of eagles. Not expressed by Christians or YECs but others.

The logistics scientist W. Brown shifted the relative proportions of canopy water to hydroplates, both of which the narrative mentions, in the last publications I saw of his. One is still called the firmament in Noah's flood event, the other is called the waters of the great deep. Brown concluded that more water burst from below than fell from above.

Immediately after this, due to the lost thermal barrier, the ice age hit and retreated. As far as I know, this is dated to be about 9000 years ago, so the 'Adam to Noah' segment of Genesis is the period before that. At that point, are we not close to the near end of the time-frame for mankind (homo sapiens) doing all the anthropological things mentioned in Genesis--artwork, records, metalwork, worship, etc.?
 

Interplanner

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Although a substantial water vapor canopy would have the early earth like Venus today.
But keep up with your mythology. It is amusing to continue to see people try to make the Bible consistent with the real world.



btw, as literature goes, when the Bible is compared to Sanskrit materials, Greek myths, Egyptian accounts, or Enuma Elish, it comes out far more reality-based. For ex., you don't have a pharoah whose ejaculation is aimed through a pyramid's shaft at a "female" star near Orion to impregnate it and insure another deity will arrive by next year if he dies this year, etc. Greek myths maybe come in 2nd but the deites are too human, finite.
 

TracerBullet

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What would those conditions be?

Well that depends on how big this imaginary vapor barrier was.


At best air can hold 55 grams of water vapor per cubic meter (FYI liquid water has a density of 1,000,000 grams per cubic meter.) To provide water for a flood 1/4 mile deep (which would leave most mountain ranges uncovered) would require 400 plus miles of vapor canopy.

Dialing that back to a vapor canopy of only 40 ft (which would contribute about 2" to a world wide flood) would lead to a doubling of the surface air pressure. That doubled air pressure would make oxygen toxic to most animals including humans as doubling atmospheric pressure doubles the blood’s oxygen content. A couple hours of exposure to this would lead to blindness and a few days exposure would lead to death.

This 40 foot vapor barrier would cut sunlight by about 50% and mean things like the stars and even the moon would not be visible.

For this thickness of a vapor canopy exist it's temperature would have to be a minimum of 220° F otherwise, the vapor would just condense into a liquid.

That surface temperature would go even higher when this vapor canopy condensed and fell as rain as each gram of condensing water vapor releases over 500 calories of heat. A little math shows that your 40 foot water vapor canopy condensing into rain would raise the earth's surface temperature to over 800 F. Add in the release of heat of the vapor barrier's kinetic energy and the surface temperature climes to 18,000 F. This temperature would liquefy granite.

This 220 temperature would increase the surface temperature of the earth by several hundred degrees.
 

Interplanner

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Well that depends on how big this imaginary vapor barrier was.


At best air can hold 55 grams of water vapor per cubic meter (FYI liquid water has a density of 1,000,000 grams per cubic meter.) To provide water for a flood 1/4 mile deep (which would leave most mountain ranges uncovered) would require 400 plus miles of vapor canopy.

Dialing that back to a vapor canopy of only 40 ft (which would contribute about 2" to a world wide flood) would lead to a doubling of the surface air pressure. That doubled air pressure would make oxygen toxic to most animals including humans as doubling atmospheric pressure doubles the blood’s oxygen content. A couple hours of exposure to this would lead to blindness and a few days exposure would lead to death.

This 40 foot vapor barrier would cut sunlight by about 50% and mean things like the stars and even the moon would not be visible.

For this thickness of a vapor canopy exist it's temperature would have to be a minimum of 220° F otherwise, the vapor would just condense into a liquid.

That surface temperature would go even higher when this vapor canopy condensed and fell as rain as each gram of condensing water vapor releases over 500 calories of heat. A little math shows that your 40 foot water vapor canopy condensing into rain would raise the earth's surface temperature to over 800 F. Add in the release of heat of the vapor barrier's kinetic energy and the surface temperature climes to 18,000 F. This temperature would liquefy granite.

This 220 temperature would increase the surface temperature of the earth by several hundred degrees.



Thanks for the work up; is it your original work?

A couple notes. Most of it is way over my head, but I notice that when the logistic scientist W. Brown worked on this material in the late 90s, he concluded that the hydroplate source of water for such a flood had to be greater volume than the 'firmament/canopy.' Probably for your same reasons.

re the rise in temperature when the canopy falls. At the same time, the temperature of space factors in and formation of ice takes place.

The only lights visible in the sky were the two major ones during the canopied period.

re condensing into a liquid. The narrative describes it as suspended water both times, at creation and at the flood. Do you happen to know what that means visually if it were to happen, ie, does it remain opaque, either thin or thick, etc?
 

Caledvwlch

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Although a substantial water vapor canopy would have the early earth like Venus today.
But keep up with your mythology. It is amusing to continue to see people try to make the Bible consistent with the real world.

Speaking of the real world, there's no water in the Venus atmosphere. It's carbon dioxide supporting clouds of sulfuric acid. Unless you just meant there were a lot of water vapor clouds on Genesis Earth?
 

TracerBullet

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Thanks for the work up; is it your original work?

A couple notes. Most of it is way over my head, but I notice that when the logistic scientist W. Brown worked on this material in the late 90s, he concluded that the hydroplate source of water for such a flood had to be greater volume than the 'firmament/canopy.' Probably for your same reasons.
the math for hydroplates is just as disastrous in that it precludes the existence of any mountains or hills (or valleys or even oceans) and the release of these waters would vaporize the surface of the planet.

re the rise in temperature when the canopy falls. At the same time, the temperature of space factors in and formation of ice takes place.
The imaginary canopy would already be in space thus my notation of the problem of it maintaining a temperature of 220° F.

The only lights visible in the sky were the two major ones during the canopied period.
which contradicts Genesis 1:14-18

re condensing into a liquid. The narrative describes it as suspended water both times, at creation and at the flood. Do you happen to know what that means visually if it were to happen, ie, does it remain opaque, either thin or thick, etc?
We can observe suspended water vapor in the form of clouds. Clouds have a density of 0.5 grams of water vapor per cubic meter a tiny fraction of the supposed canopy.
 

Jonahdog

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Speaking of the real world, there's no water in the Venus atmosphere. It's carbon dioxide supporting clouds of sulfuric acid. Unless you just meant there were a lot of water vapor clouds on Genesis Earth?

See Tracer Bullet's post #5, about the effect of the proposed canopy. End result is the same as Venus---a bit more than warm.
 

Interplanner

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the math for hydroplates is just as disastrous in that it precludes the existence of any mountains or hills (or valleys or even oceans) and the release of these waters would vaporize the surface of the planet.

The imaginary canopy would already be in space thus my notation of the problem of it maintaining a temperature of 220° F.

which contradicts Genesis 1:14-18

We can observe suspended water vapor in the form of clouds. Clouds have a density of 0.5 grams of water vapor per cubic meter a tiny fraction of the supposed canopy.


Sorry don't know what contradicts vs 14-18 about what I said.

I asked the question about the contact of such a canopy with space because at some point there has to be ice in some form at least, right?

Please explain the sense of vaporize as you used it. As in a deluge? As in molecular breakdown? If a deluge, guess what? There's your flood.
 

Jonahdog

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Sorry don't know what contradicts vs 14-18 about what I said.

I asked the question about the contact of such a canopy with space because at some point there has to be ice in some form at least, right?

Please explain the sense of vaporize as you used it. As in a deluge? As in molecular breakdown? If a deluge, guess what? There's your flood.

No knowledge of physics, huh?
 

TracerBullet

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Sorry don't know what contradicts vs 14-18 about what I said.

I asked the question about the contact of such a canopy with space because at some point there has to be ice in some form at least, right?
Just one of the many problems with the whole vapor canopy nonsense.

Please explain the sense of vaporize as you used it.
Go drop an ice cube into an iron smelting furnace.

As in a deluge? As in molecular breakdown? If a deluge, guess what? There's your flood.
Yeah Noah's ark would have just glided along on molten granite
 

Interplanner

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Just one of the many problems with the whole vapor canopy nonsense.


Go drop an ice cube into an iron smelting furnace.


Yeah Noah's ark would have just glided along on molten granite



And yet there is evidence of an abrupt end of an ice age, isn't there?

I don't know if the canopy is vapor because the description is waters above vs waters below.

As for the ice cube, the description in the narrative immediately before the breaking into a deluge is heavy rain. There is no insufferable heat mentioned nor liquidation of mountains.

Nearly every culture has a flood and survival narrative. In the NW US, the Klamath's say that a skilled archer wove a raft with arrows or spears as the flood came, and took a couple animals with him. Why would this manifest so widely and have basic consistencies?

The narrative is not written like fantasy or "religious" in many ways (like imitation accounts of Christ or saints); it bothers with a number of reality-based details. It (the segment from Adam to Noah) also depicts homo sapiens with all the same features as we find from its period on: worship, artwork, records.

There also remains a number of indicators of rapid massive flooding and climate changes. From piles of dinosaurs bones, to tropical plants trapped under the Sahara to temperate-climate food in mouths of mammoths in Siberia frozen too quickly to swallow it.

One other note: Lake Helena (ice-trapped lake east of the Cascades until about 1000 AD) is an indicator that not all flooding had to happen at the same time. Ie, the end of an ice age would feature flooding wherever the temperature changed abruptly but there could still be anomalies like Lake Helena 8000 years later from that flooding that didn't finish their business until that recently.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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7, the canopy. We find attention to Gen 1 and 6 about waters above the earth, distinct from those on the earth. Ie, a canopy. We find in Gen 6 in the account of the flood that the canopy crashes. The idea of a greenhouse effect is inevitable. 2:6 says there was ground irrigation but not rain, just spring-fed streams and rivers.
A greenhouse effect would leave evidence and we do have tropical plants preserved under the Sahara desert.
A collapsing canopy event means a sudden ice age and then the retreat of ice due to warmer surface temperatures. All of this has left evidence.
A problematic view given the very high temps that would arise with this notion of a canopy, versus being just the clouds above. Psalm 148:4 was written after the Flood, too. :AMR:

AMR
 

Interplanner

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A problematic view given the very high temps that would arise with this notion of a canopy, versus being just the clouds above. Psalm 148:4 was written after the Flood, too. :AMR:

AMR



It was very tropical, but the problem for Ps 148 about Adam to Noah is that 'there was no rain, water... but streams/mist came up from the earth and watered the whole surface...' Perhaps Ps 148 is just being consistent with Gen 1, matching it, but not describing things after.
 

TracerBullet

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And yet there is evidence of an abrupt end of an ice age, isn't there?
we are still in the last ice age. Pleistocene Ice Age has been going on since about 2.5 million years ago and has both glacial and interglacial periods.



I don't know if the canopy is vapor because the description is waters above vs waters below.

As for the ice cube, the description in the narrative immediately before the breaking into a deluge is heavy rain. There is no insufferable heat mentioned nor liquidation of mountains.
that's because there was no vapor canopy or hydroplate

Nearly every culture has a flood and survival narrative. In the NW US, the Klamath's say that a skilled archer wove a raft with arrows or spears as the flood came, and took a couple animals with him. Why would this manifest so widely and have basic consistencies?
Nearly every culture speaks of the sun being pulled across the sky by some form of animal too

The narrative is not written like fantasy or "religious" in many ways (like imitation accounts of Christ or saints); it bothers with a number of reality-based details. It (the segment from Adam to Noah) also depicts homo sapiens with all the same features as we find from its period on: worship, artwork, records.
the ancestors of homosapiens had worship and artwork
 

Interplanner

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we are still in the last ice age. Pleistocene Ice Age has been going on since about 2.5 million years ago and has both glacial and interglacial periods.



that's because there was no vapor canopy or hydroplate

Nearly every culture speaks of the sun being pulled across the sky by some form of animal too

the ancestors of homosapiens had worship and artwork



I'm not sure of the usefulness of your categories. I've read enough on the Little Ice Age of 14th-17th century to know that relative to human existence, we are not in one that affects us nor have been for 9000 years.

The cultural comparison is not equal. The subject of a flood is one that the reporting people went through first-hand. Ie, testable. Not so with beliefs about the sun. There is no use to what you said.

Dr Ross, astrophysics, U Toronto, was my source on the abrupt emergence of art, worship, records in homo sapiens, so take it up with him. CREATION AND TIME.
 

OCTOBER23

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GOD VARIED THE ROTATION OF THE EARTH AND THE KINDS OF BEINGS

THAT COULD LIVE THROUGH THE VARIATIONS.

All this information is known by Astrophysicists.
 

TracerBullet

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I'm not sure of the usefulness of your categories. I've read enough on the Little Ice Age of 14th-17th century to know that relative to human existence, we are not in one that affects us nor have been for 9000 years.

An interglacial period (or alternatively interglacial) is a geological interval of warmer global average temperature lasting thousands of years that separates consecutive glacial periods within an ice age. The current Holocene interglacial has persisted since the end of the Pleistocene, about 11,700 years ago.

The cultural comparison is not equal. The subject of a flood is one that the reporting people went through first-hand. Ie, testable. Not so with beliefs about the sun. There is no use to what you said.
Myth A is no more testable than Myth B



Dr Ross, astrophysics, U Toronto, was my source on the abrupt emergence of art, worship, records in homo sapiens, so take it up with him. CREATION AND TIME.
take it up with all the examples of neanderthal cave art
 

Interplanner

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If myth A and B are equal, show me people who went first hand through a flight with the sun.

I was saying that people who wrote about or repeated a flood experience went through it first hand. Ie, the source materials are not equal.

I wouldn't be able to compare the art because the upshot of what Dr Ross was referring to was that all those activities were there like the Adam to Noah segment shows them. The other activities have to be there.

"Most anthropologists estimate that the American Indians entered America from the Orient in about 20,000 BC across either an ice bridge or an land bridge over the Bering Straight... both the North American Indians and the pre-Columbian Indians of South America had flood myths." --Schaeffer, GENESIS IN SPACE AND TIME, p135.

re ice ages. I didn't realize that if a few tribes are trying to live in ice conditions for part of their year that we then have an ice age. I was oriented toward the 10-40 window! Perhaps I should have said ice event that would result in mammoths in Siberia being frozen quickly with temperate-climate food still in their mouths.
 
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