Atheist Morality

Derf

Well-known member
As far as I'm concerned the Declaration of Independence in part expresses a moral theory, in prose. The Constitution expresses that moral theory in law.


Yes there is the Constitution.
But unless you keep it with the declaration, it's just another man-based system, which can be overthrown by a different one.
 

Idolater

What, were you born in a barn?
But unless you keep it with the declaration, it's just another man-based system, which can be overthrown by a different one.
Well that's why we have all those politicians and officials swear sacred oaths to defend the Constitution.
 

Hoping

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Perhaps it would help to know that in Latin the word for rights and the word for laws is the same word. In English we distinguish 'rights' and 'laws' with their own words, but the ancient Romans did not. So when, in Greek, someone refers to Roman laws, they had to provide context to show that they were talking about legislation or statutes, rather than laws, and without that context, we would have to do our best to distinguish them ourselves.

In Acts, Paul invokes his rights as a Roman citizen.
Then according to God, we have the right to love Him with all our might and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.
According to God, we can't be killed at the word of less than two witnesses.
According to God, we have the right to flee to a city of refuge, if we have accidently killed someone.

I see no "right" to watch porn or to be a whore or witch.
I see no "right" to be a whore monger or drunk or drug abuser.
I see no "right" to kill the unborn.
 

JudgeRightly

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Well that's why we have all those politicians and officials swear sacred oaths to defend the Constitution.
"So help me God."

There is nothing sacred about oaths.

In fact, God EXPRESSLY FORBIDS swearing of ANY kind.

“You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. - Exodus 20:7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus20:7&version=NKJV

And you shall not swear by My name falsely, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the Lord. - Leviticus 19:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus19:12&version=NKJV

“Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one. - Matthew 5:33-37 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew5:33-37&version=NKJV

But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath. But let your “Yes” be “Yes,” and your “No,” “No,” lest you fall into judgment. - James 5:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James5:12&version=NKJV
 

Idolater

What, were you born in a barn?
"So help me God."
If we take these oaths seriously, then I feel like we should be heavily investing in a categorical refactoring of our veterans services system. Instead of treating women who can't get an abortion anymore like family and veterans like our red headed step sons, it should be the other way around. For starters.
 

Derf

Well-known member
If we take these oaths seriously, then I feel like we should be heavily investing in a categorical refactoring of our veterans services system. Instead of treating women who can't get an abortion anymore like family and veterans like our red headed step sons, it should be the other way around. For starters.
Seems non sequiturial to me. Want to explain?
 

Derf

Well-known member
There is nothing sacred about oaths.

In fact, God EXPRESSLY FORBIDS swearing of ANY kind.

“You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. - Exodus 20:7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus20:7&version=NKJV

And you shall not swear by My name falsely, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the Lord. - Leviticus 19:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus19:12&version=NKJV

“Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne;nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one. - Matthew 5:33-37 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew5:33-37&version=NKJV

But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath. But let your “Yes” be “Yes,” and your “No,” “No,” lest you fall into judgment. - James 5:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James5:12&version=NKJV
That's just for Jews. Not for the BOC. 😉
 

JudgeRightly

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That's just for Jews. Not for the BOC. 😉

If you're being sarcastic, then fine.

But if not...

It's a sin to take God's name in vain.

It's hypocrisy to say one thing and do another.

If you make an oath saying that you're going to do something, then you are obligated, even moreso with an oath, to do it, and breaking that oath would be a sin.

The problem with taking an oath (or swearing in general (not talking about cursing, though that's just as bad)) is that in trying to make whatever you are swearing to out to be truth or fact, you diminish everything else you say that is NOT under oath.

For example, a witness takes the stand in a trial, and swears that what he is about to say is truth. Problem? Was what he has said up to that point NOT been truth?

This is why Jesus (and James) said to "let your 'yes' mean 'yes,' and your 'no' mean 'no.'" It's not the mark of an honest man to constantly be swearing that what he says to be truth, because he just seems like a liar at that point, trying to make it seem that what he says is true.
 

Derf

Well-known member
If you're being sarcastic, then fine.

But if not...

It's a sin to take God's name in vain.

It's hypocrisy to say one thing and do another.

If you make an oath saying that you're going to do something, then you are obligated, even moreso with an oath, to do it, and breaking that oath would be a sin.

The problem with taking an oath (or swearing in general (not talking about cursing, though that's just as bad)) is that in trying to make whatever you are swearing to out to be truth or fact, you diminish everything else you say that is NOT under oath.

For example, a witness takes the stand in a trial, and swears that what he is about to say is truth. Problem? Was what he has said up to that point NOT been truth?

This is why Jesus (and James) said to "let your 'yes' mean 'yes,' and your 'no' mean 'no.'" It's not the mark of an honest man to constantly be swearing that what he says to be truth, because he just seems like a liar at that point, trying to make it seem that what he says is true.
mostly sarcastic/joking, but Paul did vows where he shaved his head. A vow is synonymous with "oath".

I agree that if you have to swear about something you say, it diminishes your word for all the times you don't swear, which is Jesus' and James' point. That was one of the reasons I got fired a couple years ago--they wanted me to "certify" that I would always wear my mask exactly as they instructed me to do so, but I was pretty sure I wouldn't be able to 100% of the time.
 

Idolater

What, were you born in a barn?
Even [though] the bible says not to swear.
That alone should tell us where their loyalties lie. (no pun intended)
I swear all the time. Like a drunken sailor on leave. It's really pretty ugly, my mouth. I wish I could change it, but it's how I think. I can censor my mouth, control my tongue, but I can't censor my thoughts, I think 'in swear'. It's my native tongue. When I think in my native tongue (which everyone should always do), I swear.
 

JudgeRightly

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I swear all the time. Like a drunken sailor on leave. It's really pretty ugly, my mouth. I wish I could change it, but it's how I think. I can censor my mouth, control my tongue, but I can't censor my thoughts, I think 'in swear'. It's my native tongue. When I think in my native tongue (which everyone should always do), I swear.

Didn't your mother ever wash your mouth out with soap?
 

Idolater

What, were you born in a barn?
Seems non sequiturial to me. Want to explain?
Our veterans carry around with them the heaviest heart for our Constitution, just naturally, all of them, as a group. The only way a moral man can reconcile shooting people and preparing to shoot people is to mentally tie it together with an absolutely righteous purpose. And that is what American troops past, present and future are all doing by virtue of their service and sacrifice.

The only problem with most veterans is that when it comes time to consider buying better government services for them, they as a super majority would rather put up with their conditions, if it means that the present and future troops have even slightly better guns. I use guns here to signify an umbrella concept that includes everything that the ideal military can have, including luxuries, anything at all to make our current and future troops better able to survive. Guns, missiles, battleships, aircraft carriers, nukes, nukes, rifles, food, food, fuel, armor, armor, etc., etc.

So we might have to force it on them. The thing is their service to our Constitution, if not their sacrifice, is not over just because their tours of duty are up. They must continue to be healthy, we want all of our veterans to live well into old, old age. They are one of our physical anchors to upholding, defending and protecting our moral and righteous Constitution.
 

Derf

Well-known member
I swear all the time. Like a drunken sailor on leave. It's really pretty ugly, my mouth. I wish I could change it, but it's how I think. I can censor my mouth, control my tongue, but I can't censor my thoughts, I think 'in swear'. It's my native tongue. When I think in my native tongue (which everyone should always do), I swear.
I've heard that from others. But I question whether they make excuses for themselves without being willing to let the Holy Spirit work in them to clean their speech. And it seems like Catholics do it more than other denominations.
 

JudgeRightly

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I've heard that from others. But I question whether they make excuses for themselves without being willing to let the Holy Spirit work in them to clean their speech. And it seems like Catholics do it more than other denominations.

G.I.G.O.
 

Idolater

What, were you born in a barn?
I've heard that from others. But I question whether they make excuses for themselves without being willing to let the Holy Spirit work in them to clean their speech. And it seems like Catholics do it more than other denominations.
Oh 100% true, in my anecdotal experience. We drink liquor too, and smoke cigrits!

A little off topic, and if you want to pursue it we'll bow it out of the thread, but it's rooted in a firm belief in the relative gravity, weight or seriousness of particular sins. There are so many sins. It's conceptually, as far as I'm concerned, just a big disorganized pile of stuff, all the sins. Catholicism does divide the pile into two, one pile is grave sins, and all the rest of light. They are all still sins, but here's where the Church's beliefs about participating in Holy Communion comes in: if you commit even a single grave sin, you ought to go to confession and reconcile with the Body of Christ before receiving Communion again.

Given these circumstances, we do focus our attention always on that pile of grave sins, and work as hard as possible with the Lord's help to avoid them completely. What we do with His help regarding the much, much larger pile of light sins, is simply a distant second place to avoiding grave matter. And especially when avoiding grave sins feels difficult, like it's a little more than what the Lord calls an easy yoke and a light burden, we can blow off steam with light sins and still remain in full communion with the Church, able to partake of the Lord's body and blood in the Eucharist, which spiritually feeds us by cleansing us of the temporal consequences of our light sins and fuels our development as we seek to become transformed indefinitely, conformed to the image of Christ through His Word and His Church's sacraments (we believe He is Really Present in all of them).
 
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