Ask Knight (Archived)
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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fool, was asking about babies who die. They do not get "raised" before death.Freak said:
So, I think you may be misunderstanding the issue here.
intro2faith
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Whoa whoa whoa, you gotta remember modesty! If the two piece suit covers everything, then sure. If it's a bikini or something...I'd say NO! I'm a teenage girl, and I would never wear something revealing, because #1, I just don't think it's a good testimony, and #2, there's lots of perverts in this worldAROTO said:
So, Freak do you believe babies go straight to heaven or straight to hell?Freak said:
Freak
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I believe all babies/children belong to the Kingdon of Heaven.Knight said:
People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
I know that.fool said:
Jesus is using children as an example to make a point about not hindering His followers to come to Him. I.e., children as in children of God, Christ makes this point several times in similar ways.Freak said:
Case in point . . .
Matthew 18:5 “Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me. 6 “ But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Clearly unborn babies have no belief "in Him" yet so Christ could not actually be referring to little unborn babies yet children as in followers.
I don't think I have ever read any theologian make the point that Christ is actually making a point about little babies in these verses. Not that a theologian agreeing with me makes me right and you wrong but my view on this is certainly the more accepted orthodox view.
I am sure he will be glad to hear that.fool said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clete
Well actually I believe that the baby will be given a choice to make once he able to make such a choice. God is not a magician and I see no Biblical reason to believe that babies are instantly turned into fully mature adults and given a place in heaven by default. God is just and kind and merciful and is a Father to the fatherless. He is more than capable of having the children raised to maturity at which time they will have to make their choice for or against God.
One might wonder why someone raised under God's wing in such a way would ever want to reject Him but Satan and a third of the angels lived their entire existence in the presence of the Father and they fully rejected Him, and humans can be every bit as evil as any demon and so I wouldn't put it past someone to do such a thing.
At any rate, I don't believe such a blanket statement as "all those who die as babies will go to heaven" can be made Biblically.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Well said.
I agree 100%.
If the alternative were true, one could make a good argument that abortion might actually be a good thing because it guarantee's a babies place in heaven. (I realize that is a sick thought but there are people who actually believe this).
When we die we don't stand before God with our physical body.
Mentally handicapped people become whole again.
Old people who have lost their faculties become whole again.
People with brain injuries become whole again.
Babies are matured and become a fully capable soul/spirit.
Then, these souls are judged by God. If you are judged and found not accountable for any sin you can make your eternal choice - to live with God or without Him. If you are found guilty and unrepentant you have already made your choice. Babies are not accountable for any sin therefore their matured soul will get to make an eternal choice at that point.
Originally Posted by Clete
Well actually I believe that the baby will be given a choice to make once he able to make such a choice. God is not a magician and I see no Biblical reason to believe that babies are instantly turned into fully mature adults and given a place in heaven by default. God is just and kind and merciful and is a Father to the fatherless. He is more than capable of having the children raised to maturity at which time they will have to make their choice for or against God.
One might wonder why someone raised under God's wing in such a way would ever want to reject Him but Satan and a third of the angels lived their entire existence in the presence of the Father and they fully rejected Him, and humans can be every bit as evil as any demon and so I wouldn't put it past someone to do such a thing.
At any rate, I don't believe such a blanket statement as "all those who die as babies will go to heaven" can be made Biblically.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Well said.
I agree 100%.
If the alternative were true, one could make a good argument that abortion might actually be a good thing because it guarantee's a babies place in heaven. (I realize that is a sick thought but there are people who actually believe this).
When we die we don't stand before God with our physical body.
Mentally handicapped people become whole again.
Old people who have lost their faculties become whole again.
People with brain injuries become whole again.
Babies are matured and become a fully capable soul/spirit.
Then, these souls are judged by God. If you are judged and found not accountable for any sin you can make your eternal choice - to live with God or without Him. If you are found guilty and unrepentant you have already made your choice. Babies are not accountable for any sin therefore their matured soul will get to make an eternal choice at that point.
fool what are you doing? Why did you just paste all that stuff from the other thread in here?
Were you trying to make a point? If so, what was it?
Were you trying to make a point? If so, what was it?
Ooops I didn't paste all the stuff I wanted to paste in the response to Freak.
I meant to include the following . . .
Matthew 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 “Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 “Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me. 6 “ But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea
I meant to include the following . . .
Matthew 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 “Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 “Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me. 6 “ But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea
I have never heard of this formula beforKnight said:
are you and Clete saying that people who aren't saved for certain reasons are brought up in heaven and raised ?
Would the 20yr age cut off apply?
That's quite an orphanage they got there!
all the aborted babies?
Now you see why I pasted that
Freak
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Knight, the passage goes on to state, "I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."Knight said:
Little children can decide to follow Jesus and they do! I can attest to this. Even some of our TOLer's have placed their faith in Jesus at a very early age.
It is possible to be saved as a pre-born infant. God knows the spirit of the infant and all infants love Jesus, their Creator.
David and Bathsheba’s first child died when it was only seven days old (2 Samuel 12:18). Before the child died, David cried, and did not eat any food. When the child died, David went to the temple to worship God. His servants questioned his actions. David said to them: "Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me" (1 Samuel 12:23). David knew that, even before the baby was born, that his child was precious to God and belonged to Him (read Psalm 139:13). They belong to Him!
Little children are special to God. In fact, Jesus used a little child to teach his disciples an important lesson about His kingdom (Matthew 18:1-4). It is very sad when a child dies. But there is some comfort in knowing that he or she will be in heaven on the basis that God saves children/babies because all babies and children "belong" to Him.
Also, we read in the Gospel of Luke that John the Baptist was "filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb" (Luke 1:15). From these passages we can at least deduce that it is possible to be saved as a pre-born infant.
Knight, the largest Christian denominations in the world--the Southern Baptists, the Assemblies of God, the United Methodists, etc all embrace the belief that babies belong to Jesus and therefore end up with him upon a early death. So, the facts are the exact opposite to what you had stated--we know the more accepted orthodox view would be that babies enter heaven upon their early death.
Freak
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fool said:
Fool, God's Word tells us in Matthew 19:14, for example, that Jesus says, "Let the little children come to me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven" (NKJV). The parallel passage in Luke 18:15 shows he was speaking of "infants"—children too young to understand the gospel. Yet Jesus says heaven is populated by such as these. In that context, of course, Jesus was speaking of the childlikeness of true faith. He was teaching that every believer comes to God with a spirit much like that of an infant.
Understand?
I understand the parableFreak said:
I'm asking about the real infants
Knight and Clete seem to be aserting that they grow up in heaven and get raised by God .
that's all i'm trying to pin down.
That and an apperent contridiction that was made in a previos post by Knight
Freak said:
That's the point Freak. "Like a little child". In faith. He is using the child here as an example of innocence, since the people at this time were still under the law.
You don't think people have to shrink down to child size and lose all their leg and underarm hair to enter heaven do you?
And there is another possibility, God could have the children (those under 20) stay in Abraham's Bosom (in hell but with no suffering) until they mature and are allowed to make the choice.
That's the point Freak. "Like a little child". In faith. He is using the child here as an example of innocence, since the people at this time were still under the law.
You don't think people have to shrink down to child size and lose all their leg and underarm hair to enter heaven do you?
And there is another possibility, God could have the children (those under 20) stay in Abraham's Bosom (in hell but with no suffering) until they mature and are allowed to make the choice.
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