Are you a son of God? Is God your heavenly father?

oatmeal

Well-known member
Lack of right division is why you're so confused about so many things.

Peter (and the eleven) and Paul separated their ministries for a reason. A reason that is beyond your understanding.
Their ministries were not separated, all believers are members in partciular in the body of Christ. And remain so. Are apostles not in the body of Christ because they are not pastors or prophets?

You should read I Corinthians 12:13-31

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

And Romans 12:4-8

4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Ephesians 2:8 ff
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

That is a good read for you.

There is more, but read that, believe that and you will grow in maturity
 

JudgeRightly

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Their ministries were not separated,

Denying scripture isn't good for your position, Oatsy.

Their ministries were, in fact, separated.

Paul says so, quite plainly:

But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood,nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days.But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.(Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie.)Afterward I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.And I was unknown by face to the churches of Judea which were in Christ.But they were hearing only, “He who formerly persecuted us now preaches the faith which he once tried to destroy.”And they glorified God in me. - Galatians 1:11-24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians1:11-24&version=NKJV
Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me.And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain.Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do. - Galatians 2:1-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:1-10&version=NKJV

all believers are members in partciular in the body of Christ. And remain so.

Because you say so?

Are apostles not in the body of Christ because they are not pastors or prophets?

The Twelve Apostles were saved according to the New Covenant.

Paul (and every believer since him) was saved according to the gospel of the grace of God, and NOT the New Covenant.

In other words: no, the Twelve and their converts (up to the point when Paul was coverted) were NOT Christians, but were believers in God.

You should read I Corinthians 12:13-31

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

And Romans 12:4-8

4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Ephesians 2:8 ff
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Both passages are addressed specifically to the Body of Christ.

They are not addressed to the Jewish converts.

Talk about confirmation bias...

Try reading the passages yourself. Slowly.

That is a good read for you.

There is more, but read that, believe that and you will grow in maturity

Your arrogance is what is blinding you.

You need to humble yourself.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Denying scripture isn't good for your position, Oatsy.

Their ministries were, in fact, separated.

Paul says so, quite plainly:

But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood,nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days.But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.(Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie.)Afterward I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.And I was unknown by face to the churches of Judea which were in Christ.But they were hearing only, “He who formerly persecuted us now preaches the faith which he once tried to destroy.”And they glorified God in me. - Galatians 1:11-24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians1:11-24&version=NKJV
Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me.And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain.Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do. - Galatians 2:1-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:1-10&version=NKJV



Because you say so?



The Twelve Apostles were saved according to the New Covenant.

Paul (and every believer since him) was saved according to the gospel of the grace of God, and NOT the New Covenant.

In other words: no, the Twelve and their converts (up to the point when Paul was coverted) were NOT Christians, but were believers in God.



Both passages are addressed specifically to the Body of Christ.

They are not addressed to the Jewish converts.

Talk about confirmation bias...

Try reading the passages yourself. Slowly.



Your arrogance is what is blinding you.

You need to humble yourself.
We all cannot be at the same place at the same time now can we?

Are you suggesting that they taught a different Jesus that they taught a different salvation that they taught a different God depending on where or to whom they were sent?
 

Right Divider

Body part
We all cannot be at the same place at the same time now can we?
Can we (YOU) stop asking silly questions?
Are you suggesting that they taught a different Jesus that they taught a different salvation that they taught a different God depending on where or to whom they were sent?
1Co 12:4-6 KJV Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. (5) And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. (6) And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
 

JudgeRightly

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We all cannot be at the same place at the same time now can we?

So you're saying it's a staffing issue?

So why didn't God send the 12 to the world and keep Paul in Jerusalem? Or one of the twelve in Jerusalem and send the other 11 out into the world with Paul?

Seems pretty inefficient to send one man to the world while keeping 12 in one city.

Are you suggesting that they taught a different Jesus

No.

that they taught a different salvation

A different gospel.

that they taught a different God

No.

depending on where or to whom they were sent?

After Paul's conversion, it didn't matter what was taught (either Paul's covenant of grace or the Twelve's New Covenant). People who believed after Paul's conversion were saved by grace, despite the covenant they were saved under. The two were taught simultaneously, but the way people were saved depended on if it was before or after Paul's conversion.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Can we (YOU) stop asking silly questions?
Can we (YOU) stop asking silly questions?
It was all the same gospel however the emphasis to different people would be different

Looking at Ephesians 6 children obey your parents in the Lord is a different gospel than the exhortation to the parents or is the King James has it the father of the child or children

It is a different gospel in the sense or I should say a different message because children have different needs than parents do but all are exhorted to love God with all their heart soul mind and strength to obey God's commandments etc

What the gentiles needed to hear his of necessity different than what the judeans needed to hear because the gentiles were not under the law as the judeans were

But they were not different Gospels they were different facets of the same gospel
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
So you're saying it's a staffing issue?

So why didn't God send the 12 to the world and keep Paul in Jerusalem? Or one of the twelve in Jerusalem and send the other 11 out into the world with Paul?

Seems pretty inefficient to send one man to the world while keeping 12 in one city.



No.



A different gospel.



No.



After Paul's conversion, it didn't matter what was taught (either Paul's covenant of grace or the Twelve's New Covenant). People who believed after Paul's conversion were saved by grace, despite the covenant they were saved under. The two were taught simultaneously, but the way people were saved depended on if it was before or after Paul's conversion.
Some people have a ministry that seems to tend toward counseling people in their relationships as in marriage counselors

Some people have a ministry that emphasizes evangelizing

Some people have a ministry that emphasizes the doing of miracles

Or being an apostle

For being a prophet

Or speaking in tongues

It's all the same gospel different functions at times but all the same gospel different people have different needs thus they need to hear different parts of the one gospel at particular times
 

Right Divider

Body part
It was all the same gospel however the emphasis to different people would be different
Nonsense.
Looking at Ephesians 6 children obey your parents in the Lord is a different gospel than the exhortation to the parents or is the King James has it the father of the child or children
🤪
It is a different gospel in the sense or I should say a different message because children have different needs than parents do but all are exhorted to love God with all their heart soul mind and strength to obey God's commandments etc

What the gentiles needed to hear his of necessity different than what the judeans needed to hear because the gentiles were not under the law as the judeans were
Proselyte's had to keep the law if they wanted to join with Israel.
In the body of Christ, there is no Jew NOR Greek and we are NOT under the law.
But they were not different Gospels they were different facets of the same gospel
You can babble on for as long as you like. That is a FALSE statement that will not come true because you keep repeating it.

The gospel of the kingdom is NOT identical to the gospel of the grace of God.

The twelve were preaching the gospel of the kingdom for YEARS and YET did NOT know that Christ would die NOR be resurrected.

It's not even possible to preach the gospel of the grace of God and not know those things.
Luk 9:1-6 KJV Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. (2) And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. (3) And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece. (4) And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart. (5) And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. (6) And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.
Luk 18:31-34 KJV Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (32) For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: (33) And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. (34) And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
Joh 20:9 KJV For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Denying scripture isn't good for your position, Oatsy.

Their ministries were, in fact, separated.

Paul says so, quite plainly:

But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood,nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days.But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.(Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie.)Afterward I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.And I was unknown by face to the churches of Judea which were in Christ.But they were hearing only, “He who formerly persecuted us now preaches the faith which he once tried to destroy.”And they glorified God in me. - Galatians 1:11-24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians1:11-24&version=NKJV
Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me.And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain.Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do. - Galatians 2:1-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:1-10&version=NKJV



Because you say so?



The Twelve Apostles were saved according to the New Covenant.

Paul (and every believer since him) was saved according to the gospel of the grace of God, and NOT the New Covenant.

In other words: no, the Twelve and their converts (up to the point when Paul was coverted) were NOT Christians, but were believers in God.



Both passages are addressed specifically to the Body of Christ.

They are not addressed to the Jewish converts.

Talk about confirmation bias...

Try reading the passages yourself. Slowly.



Your arrogance is what is blinding you.

You need to humble yourself.
Please read my post #22. especially where Ephesians that the work of Christ made both the Judean and Gentile converts into one body, a new man, not a remodeled old man
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Nonsense.

🤪

Proselyte's had to keep the law if they wanted to join with Israel.
In the body of Christ, there is no Jew NOR Greek and we are NOT under the law.

You can babble on for as long as you like. That is a FALSE statement that will not come true because you keep repeating it.

The gospel of the kingdom is NOT identical to the gospel of the grace of God.

The twelve were preaching the gospel of the kingdom for YEARS and YET did NOT know that Christ would die NOR be resurrected.

It's not even possible to preach the gospel of the grace of God and not know those things.
Your opinions are most entertaining

All believers in this age of grace are one body in Christ. See my post 22 where Ephesians 2 makes that clear

The gospel of the four gospels is not the gospel of the age of grace, that is for sure.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Your opinions are most entertaining
As are yours . The difference is that you are confused.
All believers in this age of grace are one body in Christ. See my post 22 where Ephesians 2 makes that clear
When did this "age of grace" begin? (Hint: There is no "age of grace", there is a dispensation of the grace of God given to Paul.)

The twelve already had a calling that God does NOT revoke. Romans 11:29

You love to TRY to mash these dispensational callings, but that is simply confusion.
The gospel of the four gospels is not the gospel of the age of grace, that is for sure.
Now you admit that there are different gospels? That's progress.
 
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JudgeRightly

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Some people have a ministry that seems to tend toward counseling people in their relationships as in marriage counselors

Some people have a ministry that emphasizes evangelizing

Some people have a ministry that emphasizes the doing of miracles

Or being an apostle

For being a prophet

Or speaking in tongues

It's all the same gospel different functions at times but all the same gospel different people have different needs thus they need to hear different parts of the one gospel at particular times

Yeah, that's a completely different category of ministry... Try to focus, please.

And address the points I made, rather than ignoring them.
 

JudgeRightly

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Please read my post #22. especially where Ephesians that the work of Christ made both the Judean and Gentile converts into one body, a new man, not a remodeled old man

I did. That's why I made post #23, which you should read, instead of ignoring.
 

Caino

Well-known member
The Son of God came down and lived anonymously among us. Even in his public ministry he lived in part as the identity of their Messianic expectations. He never forced belief on anyone. He never really overwhelmed peoples right to decide for themselves in faith. When his authority was questioned he stated that no sign will be given......except that he would return from the dead on his own. We are still left to the domain of our faith to decide if we believe in him and with him.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
As are yours . The difference is that you are confused.

When did this "age of grace" begin? (Hint: There is no "age of grace", there is a dispensation of the grace of God given to Paul.)

The twelve already had a calling that God does NOT revoke. Romans 11:29

You love to TRY to mash these dispensational callings, but that is simply confusion.

Now you admit that there are different gospels? That's progress

I believe in the different administrations, or dispensations, as you call them.

the message in the gospels is different than the message in this dispensation of grace, However, there is only one message in this "dispensation of grace".
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Yeah, that's a completely different category of ministry... Try to focus, please.

And address the points I made, rather than ignoring them.
It seems to me we are talking about two or more different issues.

I do not see this discussion going anywhere until we can clearly define what we are discussing
 
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