ECT Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism

[Lon]

You need to read it because it says that all men die as a result of their own sin and not because of the sin of Adam:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

:nono: "Why they sin" --> Sin-nature. Let's both keep reading.​

Spend some time reading the Bible.

:yawn: Read Romans 5:18 Let's both keep reading.

And if you do you will see that all men die spiritually as a result of their own sin--not Adam's sin:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).​

"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death...For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21,23).​

Repeating the same scriptures doesn't make your observations so. John 3:16,18 Your 'actions' sin are caused by a 'condition' sin. You aren't just condemned from your actions, but your condition as well. Read John 3:18 and Romans 5:18 again. As I said, the entire church is against this false doctrine and I've given sufficient verses and links to show why. You are responsible for your own heresy AND for those you lead astray, now. -Lon

 

[Nang]

Adam had the same human nature we have....he sinned the same way we do via the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. Human nature is what it always was, and was meant to be.

This is not accurate. Adam was created good and without sin, which came later through his unbelief of God's warning and disobedience of God's commands. (Genesis 2:15-17)

It isn't human nature that is not good, it's our being out of contact with our Creator that makes the flesh susceptible to sin.

Our corruption of nature has separated us from God. God could not/would not remain in communion with Adam and Eve after they disobeyed His commands. All of this is why Christ had to assume human nature (flesh) in order to free His children from their enslavement to sin, death, and the devil. Hebrews 2:9-18

 

[glorydaz]

But this isn't why children aren't accountable. It is because they aren't developmentally able to be responsible for their sin nature. You don't need such a doctrine, but I was thinking this was your reason for embracing it. Scripture rather talks about an age of 'knowing, I think it a better place

What sin nature? You mean human nature? They are too young to choose good over evil, so they aren't accountable for sin. They aren't sinners until they choose evil over good.

Going back to Romans 5:18 It says all are judged according to the inheritance of this nature.

No, it doesn't say that...anymore than it says by one man's righteousness all are righteous.

John 3 says 'condemned already.' How could a sinless child be condemned already?

You mean this condemnation?

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.​

Such a position is against so many scriptures. I remember reading several stories of women who drowned their children to 'save' them and ensure they would be saved, espousing Pelagianism. A few others gave this doctrine as the reason and excuse for their abortions. One, as I remember, thought she'd go to hell for it, but wanted her kids to be saved. They were 'right' if the doctrine were correct. If Pelagianism ever made a stronger come-back, we'd see more of this kind of thing.

You can't be serious, Lon. No believer would even think of doing such a thing, and what unbelievers do can't be blamed on anything but their own sinfulness.

I think it does Romans 5:18 says it in even stronger terms.
Read John 3:16 again: "Should not perish." Pelagianism (born sinless) denies this verse. John 3:18 "...condemned already..." Matthew 19:14 rather tells me that the Lord Jesus Christ will not cast them out. They still need the Lord Jesus Christ, but He calls them unto Himself. There is no need to embrace a heresy that does damage to scriptures, in order to try and save children Jesus is already committed to saving. -Lon

You read them again, Lon. It tells you why they were condemned....because their DEEDS were evil.

 

[glorydaz]

:nono: "Why they sin" --> Sin-nature. Let's both keep reading.​

:yawn: Read Romans 5:18 Let's both keep reading.

Repeating the same scriptures doesn't make your observations so. John 3:16,18 Your 'actions' sin are caused by a 'condition' sin. You aren't just condemned from your actions, but your condition as well. Read John 3:18 and Romans 5:18 again. As I said, the entire church is against this false doctrine and I've given sufficient verses and links to show why. You are responsible for your own heresy AND for those you lead astray, now. -Lon

Lon, please don't mount your high horse yet. Both the verses that you've given only prove our point...not yours.

 

[glorydaz]

This is not accurate. Adam was created good and without sin, which came later through his unbelief of God's warning and disobedience of God's commands. (Genesis 2:15-17)

And all men are created good and without sin....which comes later through unbelief and disobedience of God's commands.

 

[glorydaz]

Our corruption of nature has separated us from God. God could not/would not remain in communion with Adam and Eve after they disobeyed His commands. All of this is why Christ had to assume human nature (flesh) in order to free His children from their enslavement to sin, death, and the devil. Hebrews 2:9-18

"Our corruption of nature...?" So Christ had to assume that same "corrupt" human nature, right?

Either that, or He was not fully man? Which is it? Or are you going to try that ploy of saying Mary had no corrupt human nature?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

[MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] ... Citing Pelagianism is Obfuscation to defend the warped doctrine of Original Sin. Jesus revealed that the "Sin of the world is unbelief". Original Sin places all Salvation on "Obedience". It makes our fight against flesh and blood. [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION], [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] and myself are not stating that mankind can "be like God" as Pelagius stated...

What we are each saying from a different angle is that Free Will is available for us and Satan is the subversive one towards free Will.

You are making the "battle" void of true recognition of what the opposing view to yours is stating by trying to wrap up what we are saying under a neat and clean dogma and counter dogma that is named... after the cannon was closed. This is a tactic and you are ignoring clear points that you have been given.

By citing this label... you are intending to suggest that GD, JS and myself are Pelagian... this is a lie!

You are avoiding actual discussion by filtering your understanding through a counter doctrine that has nothing to do with what we are stating.

If Adam was the ORIGONATOR of SIN... then this verse would be a lie. Eph. 6:12) For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

You state that Adam is the Original Sin... but scripture jumps to Eve as the deceived. This is symbolic of the Bride of Christ. By double talking the matter and assuming false victory... you are actually defending that righteousness comes through the Law. You just don't see it! Unbelief was the result of Pride! Jerry, nor GD, nor I believe we can "be like God".

You are falsely framing this debate to avoid genuine biblical debate.

I'll put it this way... If I cite Patricide as a topic, and you have to defend that the cross saved us, but I keep referring back to Patricide... Its all smoke and mirrors.

You are confused by cookie cutter thinking that is overlapping scriptural passages.

Ditch the cookie cutter already! You are clinging to doctrines of men and missing what is actually being argued!

 

[Lon]

What sin nature? You mean human nature? They are too young to choose good over evil, so they aren't accountable for sin. They aren't sinners until they choose evil over good.

That too, is one of the tenants of Pelagianism. Literally, the cure is abortion I'm not kidding, the one woman believed Pelagian doctrine from her pastor and drown her kids.

No, it doesn't say that...anymore than it says by one man's righteousness all are righteous.

I can't read it any other way: "... through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation..." Cannot.

You mean this condemnation?

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.​

"All" so yes. But this also:John 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

Both contrasts of the actions of one 'not born again (all), and those born again in light, thus by their actions, they are showing whether they are born-again or not. That's His point to Nicodemus.

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

You can't be serious, Lon.

It is true. I met the one lady, the other I watched in a documentary, and the other was one I had heard giving testimony of her warped mind, that she 'thought' she was 'saving them' so it was okay. It is more prevalent than you realize.

No believer would even think of doing such a thing, and what unbelievers do can't be blamed on anything but their own sinfulness.

I think as MAD, you are crossing into works territory. There cannot be 'degrees' of sin that I'm aware of or I've got MAD all wrong.

You read them again, Lon. It tells you why they were condemned....because their DEEDS were evil.

And that those who walk in the light, their deeds were good BUT it was contrasting people who were and were not born-again, thus means: Born-again, sinless. Before? :nono:

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

That too, is one of the tenants of Pelagianism. Literally, the cure is abortion I'm not kidding, the one woman believed Pelagian doctrine from her pastor and drown her kids.


I can't read it any other way: "... through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation..." Cannot.

"All" so yes. But this also:John 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

Both contrasts of the actions of one 'not born again (all), and those born again in light, thus by their actions, they are showing whether they are born-again or not. That's His point to Nicodemus.

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”


It is true. I met the one lady, the other I watched in a documentary, and the other was one I had heard giving testimony of her warped mind, that she 'thought' she was 'saving them' so it was okay. It is more prevalent than you realize.

I think as MAD, you are crossing into works territory. There cannot be 'degrees' of sin that I'm aware of or I've got MAD all wrong.



And that those who walk in the light, their deeds were good BUT it was contrasting people who were and were not born-again, thus means: Born-again, sinless. Before? :nono:

1 Tim. 2:14 shows your error Lon! The Ademic Blame game that brings it all to "obedience" is a theological shell game of distortion! We are rectified through belief, not obedience... thus placing the fall of this world on Adam is a distortion of the book of Romans that you are not utilizing properly.

No... I don't care what you learned in seminary. You are completely off in left field and missing the points that are scripturally being made! GD is even quoting Galatians as if Paul was answering you in many of their posts!

Get on point! This is a Free Will discussion and Pelagianism is a distorted tactic to protect fragments of Reformed understanding... on your part.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Adam had the same human nature we have....he sinned the same way we do via the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. Human nature is what it always was, and was meant to be. It isn't human nature that is not good, it's our being out of contact with our Creator that makes the flesh susceptible to sin.

(Is. 14:14)! Exactly! To place matters on Carnal disobedience would be to deny all scripture that proves it is unbelief that destroys. The argument being employed is to say we are elevating man to be on par with God in matters of good and evil. This is argumentative slight of hand and untrue to what is actually being said.

 

[Lon]

1 Tim. 2:14 shows your error Lon! The Ademic Blame game that brings it all to "obedience" is a theological shell game of distortion! We are rectified through belief, not obedience... thus placing the fall of this world on Adam is a distortion of the book of Romans that you are not utilizing properly.

No... I don't care what you learned in seminary. You are completely off in left field and missing the points that are scripturally being made! GD is even quoting Galatians as if Paul was answering you in many of their posts!

Get on point! This is a Free Will discussion and Pelagianism is a distorted tactic to protect fragments of Reformed understanding... on your part.

:nono: Not a bit. Original sin goes back to Augustine and the scriptures.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

:nono: Not a bit. Original sin goes back to Augustine and the scriptures.

You want me to be clear... you want me to be sincere...

Augustine is not scripture and quite frankly... he is one of the causes of the Mother church failing so doctrinally miserably!

There is no "Apostle Augustine... in Scripture"! Jesus warned that many would come in His name and distort TRUTH!

To be ultra clear... Justin Martyr was great, but he single handedly led Eschatology astray!

You are now outside of Sola Scripture.

 

[Lon]

You want me to be clear... you want me to be sincere...

Augustine is not scripture and quite frankly... he is one of the causes of the Mother church failing so doctrinally miserably!

There is no "Apostle Augustine... in Scripture"! Jesus warned that many would come in His name and distort TRUTH!

To be ultra clear... Justin Martyr was great, but he single handedly led Eschatology astray!

You are now outside of Sola Scripture.

:nono: and the scriptures.

:nono: Psalm 51:5

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

:nono: Not a bit. Original sin goes back to Augustine and the scriptures.

Lon... the fact that the majority that embraces "original sin" includes Mormans and Arians should be your first clue!

Augustine is the first to distort Paul so viciously! You are clinging to decrees of the pope by defending these matters. I'm not attacking Catholicism, but I'm pointing out that your logic is flawed on this matter.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

:nono: Psalm 51:5

Lon... We are born to die! We cannot change this. This refers to the wages of unbelief and the Carnal side of the matter. (Heb. 2:14)

Now... Lon... Can Satan kill our Soul, or just our DUST?

Who was Jesus referring to that can kill the Body and Soul in Sheol? :nono:

Who are you empowering?

 

[Lon]

Lon... the fact that the majority that embraces "original sin" includes Mormans and Arians should be your first clue!

Excellent! They believe in 'no' original sin, but are Pelagian.

Augustine is the first to distort Paul so viciously! You are clinging to decrees of the pope by defending these matters. I'm not attacking Catholicism, but I'm pointing out that your logic is flawed on this matter.

Actually, I wish the RC would BECOME Augustinian, but both he and this is another subject. I can drop Augustine like an easy habit for discussion. I like him, but I'm not wanting to buy all his autographed books or anything.

 

[Lon]

Lon... We are born to die! We cannot change this. This refers to the wages of unbelief and the Carnal side of the matter. (Heb. 2:14)

Now... Lon... Can Satan kill our Soul, or just our DUST?

Who was Jesus referring to that can kill the Body and Soul in Sheol? :nono:

Who are you empowering?

Psalm 51:5, what does it say? :think: "If" my theology calls David a liar, what good is my theology? My education? Any of it?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Excellent! They believe in 'no' original sin, but are Pelagian.


Actually, I wish the RC would BECOME Augustinian, but both he and this is another subject. I can drop Augustine like an easy habit for discussion. I like him, but I'm not wanting to buy all his autographed books or anything.

Lon... you messaged me through rep and said this.

It is heresy doctrine. All believe in original sin but a few Protestants, mostly Arians as well as the Mormons. It will be a HARD sell to the whole church at large. -Lon

You acknowledge that some Arians and Mormans embrace it in your sentence structure.

Lon... we are not discussing Pelagianism! We are discounting the accuracy of Agustine!

FD, JS and I believe in a different original sin than Augustine!

Is. 14:14 says it all and binds to all scripture. You are Obfuscating the matter!

Pelagianism is your easy out! It's a false counter argument as we are not Pelagianism!

This is why I wrote this...

[MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] ... Citing Pelagianism is Obfuscation to defend the warped doctrine of Original Sin. Jesus revealed that the "Sin of the world is unbelief". Original Sin places all Salvation on "Obedience". It makes our fight against flesh and blood. [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION], [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] and myself are not stating that mankind can "be like God" as Pelagius stated...

What we are each saying from a different angle is that Free Will is available for us and Satan is the subversive one towards free Will.

You are making the "battle" void of true recognition of what the opposing view to yours is stating by trying to wrap up what we are saying under a neat and clean dogma and counter dogma that is named... after the cannon was closed. This is a tactic and you are ignoring clear points that you have been given.

By citing this label... you are intending to suggest that GD, JS and myself are Pelagian... this is a lie!

You are avoiding actual discussion by filtering your understanding through a counter doctrine that has nothing to do with what we are stating.

If Adam was the ORIGONATOR of SIN... then this verse would be a lie. Eph. 6:12) For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

You state that Adam is the Original Sin... but scripture jumps to Eve as the deceived. This is symbolic of the Bride of Christ. By double talking the matter and assuming false victory... you are actually defending that righteousness comes through the Law. You just don't see it! Unbelief was the result of Pride! Jerry, nor GD, nor I believe we can "be like God".

You are falsely framing this debate to avoid genuine biblical debate.

I'll put it this way... If I cite Patricide as a topic, and you have to defend that the cross saved us, but I keep referring back to Patricide... Its all smoke and mirrors.

You are confused by cookie cutter thinking that is overlapping scriptural passages.

Ditch the cookie cutter already! You are clinging to doctrines of men and missing what is actually being argued!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Psalm 51:5, what does it say? :think: "If" my theology calls David a liar, what good is my theology? My education? Any of it?

Solomon was David's son and he spoke exactly as I'm speaking in Ecclesiastes. Who was more suited to define David... Augustine or Solomon? [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] ... edited in.

Lon... you are totally dodging what I stated. I said that we are born to die because of Carnal death. You are associating Spiritual Death with Carnal death.

Blindness is not death!

:nono: Psalm 51:5

Lon... We are born to die! We cannot change this. This refers to the wages of unbelief and the Carnal side of the matter. (Heb. 2:14)

Now... Lon... Can Satan kill our Soul, or just our DUST?

Who was Jesus referring to that can kill the Body and Soul in Sheol? :nono:

Who are you empowering?

Twist my scripture quotes in your response again... and I will make this a hill to die on. Please stop deceiving people in your responses that are void of understanding to what [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION], [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] and myself are saying!

It is not ok

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"Why they sin" --> Sin-nature. Let's both keep reading.

In case you forgot we were discussing how spiritual death comes to man. This verse says that it came to them because all have sinned:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

This is not saying "why they sin," as you imagine, but instead the result of their sins.

Why did you not address this fact?