ECT Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism

Danoh

New member
Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Numbers 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I would love to debate him about the ideas of Pelagius only if he will quote what the man himself wrote. Not what others say that he taught. Here is what John Wesley said:

"St. Augustine was angry at Pelagius: Hence he slandered and abused him, (as his manner was,) without either fear or shame. And St. Augustine was then in the Christian world, what Aristotle was afterwards: There needed no other proof of any assertion, than ''Ipse dixit: “St. Augustine said it.”

You can't believe a word about what Pelagius actually taught unless you read what he actually wrote.

I think too many have borrowed Augustine's tactics, and not just his beliefs.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Numbers 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Only three or four generations? Then we're good to go, aren't we?

I'm sure you know that is speaking of the consequences of their iniquities.
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
An unsaved (unregenrate) man is blind and deaf to the gospel and is literally dead in his sins. Ro 5:12KJV
He is totally unable, without the power of the Holy Spirit acting upon him, to ever come to saving knowledge of Christ without God making him alive through Christ. Eph 2:5KJV, John 5:21KJV

I agree, but God convicts all with His Spirit, all means all. Some people change that meaning.

Proof text for both:

John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 3:14
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

This is the quickening that enables us to see:

John 16:7 But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me

Once convicted of ones sins by the Spirit via the gospel, one can receive or reject the truth.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

John 5:39 You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me, 40 yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.

God draws all, with His Spirit when we hear the word of truth, the Gospel of Salvation.

John 4:10
Jesus answered, "If you knew the gift of God and who is asking you for a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."


We can open the door, or deny Him there.
 

Danoh

New member
Only three or four generations? Then we're good to go, aren't we?

I'm sure you know that is speaking of the consequences of their iniquities.

You missed it.

The third and fourth generation aspect recycles.

There it is, many generations later, in the Lord's day.

Lol, pay attention - that was why I ended that with that passage from Matthew :D
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
A corrupt tree can indeed produce nothing but corrupt fruit, but why are we born
with corrupt hearts?

Man corrupts his own self:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves"
(Ex.32:7).​

When something is corrupted it goes from a state of being good to a state of being bad. Therefore, before men corrupt themselves they are very good, just like Adam was when he was created (Gen.1:31).

Antecedent to any personal act of ours (as such), we stand accursed by the Divine Law. Since “death” came as the result of “sin,” since it is the penal sentence upon it, that sentence cannot be passed upon any save those who are guilty. If, then, death was “passed upon all men,” it must be because all are guilty, all participated legally in Adam’s offence.

All are "guilty" because they participated "legally" in Adam's sin?

LEGALLY? You've got to be kidding. In God's eyes a man is "guilty" when he sins:

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God" (Ro.3:19).​

The word "guilt" is defined as "fact or state of having committed an offense or crime; grave culpability, as for some conscious violation of moral or penal law" (The American College Dictionary).

The concept of "culpability" is essential in determing a person's guilt. The word "culpable" means "deserving blame or censure; blameworthy" (Ibid.). A person is not "guilty" unless he is "culpable" or "deserving blame" of a violation of a moral law. The word "blame" means "to lay the responsibility of (a fault, error, etc.) on a person" (Ibid.).

It is obvious that since no one can be blamed for Adam's sin except Adam then it is equally obvious that no one is guilty of Adam's sin. And we see that same truth here:

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son" (Ezek.18:20).​
 

dodge

New member
Jerry Shugart;4985090]Man corrupts his own self:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves"
(Ex.32:7).​


EXACTLY they all had Adam's nature !


When something is corrupted it goes from a state of being good to a state of being bad. Therefore, before men corrupt themselves they are very good, just like Adam was when he was created (Gen.1:31)
.


Where in scripture does it EVER say man's heart is good ?


All are "guilty" because they participated "legally" in Adam's sin?

Your argument is with God He is the one that mad Adam the federal head of mankind.

LEGALLY? You've got to be kidding. In God's eyes a man is "guilty" when he sins:

God makes the rules NOT Jerry.

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God" (Ro.3:19).​

The word "guilt" is defined as "fact or state of having committed an offense or crime; grave culpability, as for some conscious violation of moral or penal law" (The American College Dictionary).

The concept of "culpability" is essential in determing a person's guilt. The word "culpable" means "deserving blame or censure; blameworthy" (Ibid.). A person is not "guilty" unless he is "culpable" or "deserving blame" of a violation of a moral law. The word "blame" means "to lay the responsibility of (a fault, error, etc.) on a person" (Ibid.).

Again God made the rules NOT YOU.

It is obvious that since no one can be blamed for Adam's sin except Adam then it is equally obvious that no one is guilty of Adam's sin. And we see that same truth here:


Is the 1st Jerry 101 ?

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son" (Ezek.18:20).
[/QUOTE]

Hello, scripture says in Adam all die as a result of Adam's disobedience.
 

Danoh

New member
Then why did you say anything about anything being recycled?

My original response - to GD - was the issue of those passages in the OT wherein Israel was told that the sins of theirs fathers would be visited on them and their children and children's children unto their third and forth generations.

But each each generation kept disobeying.

The result was that though God had dealt with those generations, the thing would be started all over again within the last generation.

Over, and over and over, over many centuries.

For at the end of it all, Israel is ONE nation...

No matter how many generations...all that will at last culminate in ONE NATION being reborn as ONE nation "in one day" after which, He will remember their COLLECTIVE sin in their GENERATIONS...no more.

Who is Daniel suffering with and asking for forgiveness, despite his well known great faith?

What does the writer of Hebrews (and Peter) relate about how that their yet fulfilled promises are for all of them all the way back to Abraham?

Talk about a "rinse, lather, repeat..."

Again, I was addressing a point made by GD in relation to one I had made about a point made by Tam.

Lol, her, GD, and you - that right there is three generations :chuckle:
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
EXACTLY they all had Adam's nature !

All men have the same nature that Adam had when he was created. Here we see how that is described:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen.2:7).​

This is the way that Job says that he was made:

"The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life"
(Job.33:4).​

When the LORD breathed into Adam he received spiritual life. So when He breathed into Job he also received spiritual life, especially since the "spirit" of God made him. But you say that when the LORD breathed into Job he did not receive spiritual life even though the spirit of God made him.

Where in scripture does it EVER say man's heart is good ?

I have already explained to you that man corrupts himself. And being corrupted means going from a state which is good to one which is bad. So before a man corrupts himself he is in a state of being very good, just like Adam was before he sinned (Gen.1:31). So at the time a person is conceived his heart can only be described as being very good.

Your argument is with God He is the one that mad Adam the federal head of mankind.

Where in the Bible does it EVER say that Adam is the federal head of mankind?
 

dodge

New member
Jerry Shugart;4985241]All men have the same nature that Adam had when he was created. Here we see how that is described:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen.2:7).​

No Jerry Adam and everyone else is NOT the same. Adam was created by God and everyone else is born from a woman.

This is the way that Job says that he was made:

"The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life"
(Job.33:4).​

No doubt all life comes from God, which does NOT change the fact that in the garden of Eden Adam disobeyed God.

When the LORD breathed into Adam he received spiritual life. So when He breathed into Job he also received spiritual life, especially since the "spirit" of God made him. But you say that when the LORD breathed into Job he did not receive spiritual life even though the spirit of God made him.

Job received physical life NOT spiritual life and you will never find in scripture that he did.

I have already explained to you that man corrupts himself. And being corrupted means going from a state which is good to one which is bad. So before a man corrupts himself he is in a state of being very good, just like Adam was before he sinned (Gen.1:31). So at the time a person is conceived his heart can only be described as being very good.

You are ignoring the obvious. Have you ever wondered why since Eve was deceived and Adam was not scripture does NOT say all die in Eve ? The reason is Adam was the federal representative of mankind .

Where in the Bible does it EVER say that Adam is the federal head of mankind?

In Adam all die.
1 Cor. 15:45 says, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." The "first Adam" is in reference to the man Adam. The "last Adam" is a reference to the man Jesus. This is why we see that Adam was a type of Christ.

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." (Rom. 5:12-14).

Adam was a type of Christ but how so? Jesus didn't sin, yet Adam did. Jesus didn't have an earthly wife, but Adam did. Jesus didn't name all the animals, but Adam did. Adam was the first human man made, Jesus wasn't. In fact, they are opposites in many ways. So how is Adam a type of Jesus? Let's look at more of Rom. 5:15-17 to find out.

"But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."

The transgression was from the one man Adam. The free gift is salvation in the one man Jesus. As death reigned through Adam, righteousness will reign through Jesus. Both were sources, one of death, the other of life. Both were representatives, one of all mankind, the other of believers. See also 1 Cor. 15:22 that says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive." This is teaching us that Adam and Christ are representative heads. There are those "in Adam" and there are those "in Christ." These are referencing the position of people in relationship to both Adam and Jesus.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
Your explanation is wrong and every time you repeat it you are wrong.

Good post.

Jerry has Adam sinning with no repercussions on the rest of humanity in contradiction to Paul.
Then he has people subsequently born descendants of Adam who are sinless.
Then he has them sin and become sinners just like Adam because of their sin.
Then he has some come to Christ to again reverse this process and become sinless again.

This flip-flopping begs the questions;

Why does Genesis not just simply state that Adam sinned instead of going into such detail?
And why does Paul go into such detail to describe Christ as the second Adam?

If Adam's sin was only applicable to him, why bother?
 

dodge

New member
Good post.

Jerry has Adam sinning with no repercussions on the rest of humanity in contradiction to Paul.
Then he has people subsequently born descendants of Adam who are sinless.
Then he has them sin and become sinners just like Adam because of their sin.
Then he has some come to Christ to again reverse this process and become sinless again.

This flip-flopping begs the questions;

Why does Genesis not just simply state that Adam sinned instead of going into such detail?
And why does Paul go into such detail to describe Christ as the second Adam?

If Adam's sin was only applicable to him, why bother?

Sadly he seems to have no understanding of scripture.
When you raise the question of why doesn't scripture say "all die in Eve" ? It says all die in Adam because Adam was the federal head of mankind.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
Sadly he seems to have no understanding of scripture.
When you raise the question of why doesn't scripture say "all die in Eve" ? It says all die in Adam because Adam was the federal head of mankind.

I think it stems from a lack of understanding of God's impeccable justice.
And how He takes care of every minute detail in His plan of Redemption.

It also begs the question; Why was it necessary for Jesus to be born with no earthly father?

There was no transmission of guilt for original sin in Him thus rendering Him sinless at birth.
If we are sinless at birth, why not have Jesus born naturally as we are?
 

dodge

New member
I think it stems from a lack of understanding of God's impeccable justice.
And how He takes care of every minute detail in His plan of Redemption.

It also begs the question; Why was it necessary for Jesus to be born with no earthly father?

There was no transmission of guilt for original sin in Him thus rendering Him sinless at birth.
If we are sinless at birth, why not have Jesus born naturally as we are?

EXACTLY. Things that are the same are the same unless you are a MADist.
 
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