ARCHIVE - The Science Behind Intelligent Design Theory-by Casey Luskin

Brother Vinny

Active member
Ah, there's that call for "decency" again.

Here at TheologyOnline, we decide in our own minds what decency is.

That being the case, I'd say Knight is a pretty decent fellow. Who is JGaltJr to object?
 

Projill

New member
*has an overwhelming urge to mass mail TheologyOnline subscribers Richard Dawkins' book The Blind Watchmaker but then remembers that she's broke*
 

notto

New member
Originally posted by Knight
How far would you take your logic? What if you found a hammer? How about a bicycle? Is there some sort of threshold in which you could determine intelligent design without "further investigation"?

What about a snowflake, a rock crystal, a perfectly smooth spherical rock?

Don't these things look designed as much as the arrowheads? Do you think that there are not "false" arrowheads found that are not manmade but appear to be? This is why we can't assume design without "further investigation".

What about a face on Mars?

It "looks" designed does not prove design. Saying something is too complex for nature to create is not a valid scientific argument because we have yet to investigate all of natures complexity!
 

JGaltJr.

BANNED
Banned
Notto I hope you realize you just committed the unpardonable TOL sin. You made a legitimate logical point. Expect to be demonized forever more by Knight and his band of not-so merry men.
 

Brother Vinny

Active member
notto,

In the examples you gave-- a snowflake, a rock crystal, a spherical rock-- you only gave examples of symmetry appearing in nature, not design. Form without funtion, as it were.

As for the "face on Mars," it is interesting that you fall back on a thoroughly debunked hoax for support. Is this how all "scientists" work?

Now, I personally don't like arguing from design when talking to an atheist. Someone irrationally attatched to their atheism, as JGaltJr is, will not see a god behind the design of living species no matter how many examples are given. And arguing design with an atheist carries the false implication that the atheist can do such things as reason, make value judgments, etc., independent of the light of reason given by God.
 

Lion

King of the jungle
Super Moderator
JGalt -you said:
… everything that we have an explanation for has a natural process. Everything. There is not a single instance of anything being shown to have a supernatural process. Not one. Now how is it more logical to assume something has a supernatural beginning than a natural beginning when everything else we've discovered the answer for has a natural explanation?

It is more logical to assume that a supernatural process was used to create all the things I listed, IE-the creation of Life, Energy, and Matter, because otherwise they all defy the natural laws that we can explain.

How could a rock make itself? (defying the laws of thermodynamics)

How could Life come from non-life? (defying the law of a-biogenesis)

How could Energy create itself? (defying the laws of thermodynamics)

Those alone should be enough evidence to show that something outside of nature, (stronger than nature-therefore obeying the law of first causes), in other words supernatural, was at work in their creation.

Certainly better than… “well it’s just not explainable…” not a very compelling argument.
 

ThinkerThinker

New member
Originally posted by Lion
In this statement you tried to say that because a person has Christian beliefs they cannot look at a thing in an unbiased way.

No, I said Becky is misleading, not that Christians cannot look at a thing in an unbiased way.

You dismiss the theory simply because it is used by Christians…

No, I said the way Becky presented it is flawed.

If you found your computer laying on the sidewalk you would never in a million billion trillion years believe that it grew there from natural processes.

No, you’ve got it wrong. My point was that certain natural processes produce certain natural results. Gravity produce planetary motion, intelligence produces complex information systems. Becky tries to show that intelligence (God) created intelligence (human) that creates complex information systems. I say nature, produced intelligence (human) that creates complex information systems. Complex information systems are not unnatural because nothing else in nature, except intelligence, creates it unless you first assume intelligence is unnatural and THAT is the problem I have with the argument.

If you found your computer laying on the sidewalk you would never in a million billion trillion years believe that it grew there from natural processes.

Yes, I would believe it grew from a natural process. I grew from intelligence that is natural. Your argument is like a primitive man saying you would never in a million years believe something as massive as a moon can do circular movements from natural processes. Matter produces gravity hence circular movement. Matter produces intelligence hence the computer on the sidewalk.

Do you see your own preconceptions?

TT
 

notto

New member
Originally posted by Paul DeYonghe
notto,

In the examples you gave-- a snowflake, a rock crystal, a spherical rock-- you only gave examples of symmetry appearing in nature, not design. Form without funtion, as it were.

As for the "face on Mars," it is interesting that you fall back on a thoroughly debunked hoax for support. Is this how all "scientists" work?

Of course manmade objects (like the arrowhead) are designed. We know who designed them based on the context in which they were found. They only have function based on context. If I find a pointy rock that could be used as an arrowhead, should I assume it is designed because I can apply function to it? What about a pointy stick? My point is that if someone shows you a rock that looks like an arrowhead, you can't assume it was designed unless there is further evidence of its designer based on where it is found.

Each of the examples given in the thread I commented on for design are of non-animate objects, each of which has no capability to change or transform. This is not the case with biological entities, escpecially DNA. DNA has a viable mechanism to change from generation to generation, mainly mutation and natural selection. ID tries to put limits on this change show a mechanism that limits this change. It all falls back on the "it looks designed" or "it is too complex for nature".

The face on mars was an example of where if we use the "it looks designed" argument, we end up with a false conclusion. Of course this has been debunked, that was my point. It was debunked after further investigation and a natural explanation for the feature was provided. Scientists didn't think it was built by intelligence from the start, it was the UFOlogists and the non-scientists who insisted it was designed before all of the facts were in.
 

ThinkerThinker

New member
Originally posted by Lion

How could a rock make itself? (defying the laws of thermodynamics)
How could Life come from non-life? (defying the law of a-biogenesis)
How could Energy create itself? (defying the laws of thermodynamics)

“How could a rock make itself?”
How could God make itself?
No God was always there. Oh, so was the rock.

“How could Life come from non-life?”
How could the supernatural nature of God come from non-supernature?
No, God is a form of supernatural. Oh, well life is a form of natural.

“How could Energy create itself?”
How could God create itself?
No God was always there. Oh, so was the energy. (By the way, matter, and therefore the rock, is just another state of energy so this is the same as your first example).

So you see, you just push the argument on step back into a believe system where nothing can be proved. With the argument there you feel satisfied and do not have to confront some difficult questions. You resolve nothing except your own fears.

TT
 

Brother Vinny

Active member
notto,

The ID argument goes well beyond cells and organs merely "looking" designed and into design functions, which is where irreducible complexity comes in. A snowflake, while being aesthetically complex, has no function to fulfill, and does not cease being a snowflake if a small piece is broken off.

As stated, I really don't like arguing ID. For starters, I don't see it as having any real bearing on the worldview of an atheist: The atheistic worldview has as its governing presupposition the non-existence of God (or any god), so any information he collects will be filtered through that presupposition.

Another reason is that evolutionists have already made inroads in challenging the ID argument. Dr. Kenneth Miller, who happens to be a theist, has made some plausible arguments in his book, Finding Darwin's God, as to how irreducibly complex organs and systems may have evolved, e.*., the now irreducibly complex human eardrum perhaps having once been a simpler organism's tympanic membrane and the bones just beneath it. The book didn't make me an evolutionist, but it did point out some weaknesses in my arguments, and I would encourage those involved in this debate to read it if only to strengthen their own positions.
 

JGaltJr.

BANNED
Banned
Originally posted by Lion
JGalt -you said:

It is more logical to assume that a supernatural process was used to create all the things I listed, IE-the creation of Life, Energy, and Matter, because otherwise they all defy the natural laws that we can explain.

How could a rock make itself? (defying the laws of thermodynamics)

How could Life come from non-life? (defying the law of a-biogenesis)

How could Energy create itself? (defying the laws of thermodynamics)

Those alone should be enough evidence to show that something outside of nature, (stronger than nature-therefore obeying the law of first causes), in other words supernatural, was at work in their creation.

Certainly better than… “well it’s just not explainable…” not a very compelling argument.

Who ever claimed that a rock made itself or that energy made itself? I ask again for you to explain how it is logical to look at a world for which every answer we've discovered so far as a natural explanation and assume that the few answers we don't have must be answered by copping out and sauying, "God did it. That's good enough for me." Please explain how that is logical. What evidence is there that any god created anything. Not having an answer is not evidence for a god.
 

Warren

New member
Intelligent design is not anti-evolution per se. ID is an alternative hypothesis to non-teleological evolution which is often referred to as the blind watchmaker. A good definition of non-teleological evolution was provided by the National Association of Biology Teachers a few years ago. In it's first draft it said:

"The diversity of life on earth is the outcome of evolution: an unsupervised, impersonal, unpredictable, and natural process of temporal descent with genetic modification that is affected by natural selection, chance, historical contingencies, and changing environments."

The NABT definition of evolution has successfully drawn the line between a non-teleological and a teleological interpretation of natural history. Note that evolution is defined as "unsupervised, impersonal ... natural process." There is obviously no role for any intelligence to even guide an evolutionary process.

This NABT position on evolution is identical to the blind watchmaker hypothesis promoted by Richard Dawkins:

"The complexity of living organisms is matched by the elegant efficiency of their apparent design. If anyone doesn't agree that this amount of complex design cries out for an explanation, I give up. No, on second thought I don't give up, because one of my aims in this book is to convey something of the sheer wonder of biological complexity to those whose eyes have not been opened to it. But having built up the mystery, my other aim is to remove it again by explaining the solution.....Natural selection, the blind, unconscious, automatic process which Darwin discovered, and which we know is the explanation for the existence and apparently purposeful form of all life....Natural selection has no mind and no mind's eye. It does not plan for the future. It has no vision, no foresight, no sight at all. If it can be said to play the role of watchmaker in nature, it is the blind watchmaker.""[Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker (1987), ix.]

Now, here's the point. There is currently no way to DIRECTLY detect the existence of either a teleological or NON-teleological cause from ancient history. ID and blind watchmaking are in the same boat in regard to direct verification. The ID critic's positon seems to be that there is positive evidence for blind watchmaking therefore in order for ID to compete with blind watchmaking it needs to present proof. But this isn't the case. The best either side can do when investigating ancient natural history is to infer a cause indirectly to determine how well those inferences make sense of the data we have.

ID and blind watchmaking are both based on inferences not proof. ID critics don't seem to understand that. That is why I often ask them what evidence would cause them to infer intelligent design. When you examine their responses it becomes obvious they will accept nothing less than absolute proof. But if we had proof of ID there would be no need to infer it! The ID critics are incapable of inferring design. On the other hand, they have no trouble inferring blind watchmaking from very meager evidence. Why the double standard?

So, the ID hypothesis shouldn't be evaluated in isolation, rather we should compare it with the blind watchmaker hypothesis. Darwin often argued to his correspondents, that his theory had to be weighed COMPARATIVELY, "vis-a-vis its competitors."

So let's compare the ID hypothesis with the blind watchmaker hypothesis. Please reference any peer reviewed article that demonstrates that a non-teleological cause was behind the origin of life, the origin of molecular machines, the origin of the genetic code or the origin of mammals.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
notto, all I am asking is.... if you found the arrowheads that becky pictured on page 2 of this thread could/would you deduce that the arrowheads were intelligently designed? Or would you need "further investigation" as JGalt would need?
 

notto

New member
Originally posted by Knight
notto, all I am asking is.... if you found the arrowheads that becky pictured on page 2 of this thread could/would you deduce that the arrowheads were intelligently designed? Or would you need "further investigation" as JGalt would need?

As I mentioned in my response, it would depend on the context of where they were found. If they are found with other fashioned tools in an area that we know was inhabited by stone tool makers, then sure, I would deduct that they are designed based on the fact that I can see evidence of the designer

If they were found in large quarry of hundreds of thousands of shattered rocks, with different shapes, by someone who was looking for and selecting rocks that look like arrowheads, then I would say that they are not designed.

The shape of the arrowheads in themselves does not tell us they are designed, mearly that they look like something that could be designed, or could happen by chance. We must put them into context to determine which it is and if we are to determine that they are designed, we must have evidence of the designer, and establish that known natural forces could not have created them where they were found.

If you found rocks in a quarry of smashed and jagged rocks that look like those arrowheads, would you assume that they are designed without doing further investigation?
 

Warren

New member
I keep hearing that ID is the hypothesis that the universe and living creatures are too complex to have arisen by chance alone and God must have been involved.

I think some persons on this forum lack appreciation for just how diverse the ID movement is. While it is true (for now) that a lot of IDers argue like this, many of us differ. For example, many ID'ers do not accept this argument at all. For them, ID is simply the inference to the best explanation and does not entail the designer be God. They tentatively infer ID behind the origin of life, as the evidence that currently exists favors ID. Also, given that there really is no evidence that chance and natural selection were indeed the mechanisms behind the origin of major evolutionary innovations, they remain open to ID beyond the realm of abiogenesis.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
No matter where I found those arrowheads (and I am talking specifically about the arrowheads pictured on page 2 of this thread) I would deduce WITHOUT any further investigation that they were indeed intelligently designed.

I am being honest when I say... I think it would be silly to think otherwise as you would be just wasting your time "investigating further".

Can I ask you something?

Look at the picture below...

2garys.JPG


Can you tell me what is in the picture?

In your own words, what is in the picture?
 

Warren

New member
Forget about arrowheads. What if a 10 million year old mousetrap was discovered? Would anyone doubt it was the product of intelligent design even though we had no idea who the designer was? Would inferring it was intelligently designed be unscientific? Would anyone seriously propose that we postpone a conclusion of design until we had eliminated the possibility that some undiscovered non-intelligent process created the mousetrap?
 

Lion

King of the jungle
Super Moderator
Thinker not Thinking

Thinker not Thinking

ThinkerThinker-First, you failed to answer any of the questions I posed. You instead asked questions of your own in an attempt to obfuscate.

In fact I already answer all of the questions you posed, in this statement;
Those alone should be enough evidence to show that something outside of nature, (stronger than nature-therefore obeying the law of first causes), in other words supernatural, was at work in their creation.

God is the first cause. He has always been. He is greater than, and the creator of, the laws of nature and therefore not subject to them. Therefore my system of belief in no way negates science or its natural laws, but you can in no way say the same. Since your system of belief defies its own laws at every turn. IE;

A rock made itself. (defying the laws of thermodynamics)

Life came from non-life. (defying the law of a-biogenesis)

Energy created itself. (defying the laws of thermodynamics)
 

Lion

King of the jungle
Super Moderator
BANG! big or little?

BANG! big or little?

JGalt-Oh, I’m sorry, perhaps I misunderstood your stand on things.

I thought you believed in natural processes. That would mean that you believe that either;

All matter and energy have been here forever,
or,
That a rock created itself.

Just so I’m clear please let me know how you think the first rock got here by natural explanations?
 
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