ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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Clete

Clete

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Nang,

I have an idea. :idea:

Instead of my just dropping completely out of this thread because of my frustration over personalities, how about you ask me a question pertainly directly to the topic of Open Theism and we'll see if we can't have a productive conversation about it? I promise not to be insulting as long as you promise to remain responsive and substantive.

What do you say?
 
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godrulz

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Nang said:
It would be helpful if you disclosed to whom, and the exact points made, you are responding.

Otherwise, your comments make no sense.

Nang
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Mystery about a proximal post. I assume most believe in free will, but he says most of us are wrong. So what does he believe about it?
 
Mystery

Mystery

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Clete said:
Your mind reading skills are sorely lacking Mystery. Debate theology and keep your personal opinions, particularly the ones having to do with my personal state of mind, to yourself.
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Yea right, Clete, you are not the least bit condescending. :rolleyes:
 
Clete

Clete

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Nang

Nang

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Clete said:
Nang,

I have an idea. :idea:

Instead of my just dropping completely out of this thread because of my frustration over personalities, how about you ask me a question pertainly directly to the topic of Open Theism as we'll see if we can't have a productive conversation about it? I promise not to be insulting as long as you promise to remain responsive and substantive.

What do you say?
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Hi Clete,

Here is my question . . .

Do OVT'ers believe that Christians are perfect and without sin as Mystery teaches?

(Knight has already answered me and said that this is only the view of Mystery, Lighthouse, and E4E, plus maybe another one.)

Do you more to add?

Nang
 
Clete

Clete

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Nang said:
Hi Clete,

Here is my question . . .

Do OVT'ers believe that Christians are perfect and without sin as Mystery teaches?

(Knight has already answered me and said that this is only the view of Mystery, Lighthouse, and E4E, plus maybe another one.)

Do you more to add?

Nang
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You're lucky I'm not Knight.
 
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godrulz

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Nang said:
Hi Clete,

Here is my question . . .

Do OVT'ers believe that Christians are perfect and without sin as Mystery teaches?

(Knight has already answered me and said that this is only the view of Mystery, Lighthouse, and E4E, plus maybe another one.)

Do you more to add?

Nang
Click to expand...

This is not an issue germane to Open Theism. Being free will theists, most academic OT would not subscribe to sinless perfectionism ideas.
 
Clete

Clete

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Nang said:
I do not understand.

Why are you reacting hostile?
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I'm not being hostile. You're daring Knight to ban you and if I were him, that's exactly what that "question" would have gotten you.

Okay, that's it!

I tried, it didn't work. I'm done.
 
Nang

Nang

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godrulz said:
This is not an issue germane to Open Theism. Being free will theists, most academic OT would not subscribe to sinless perfectionism ideas.
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Thank you . . .I did not think so, but this idea has been persistently purported on this "Open Theism" thread . . .so I simply asked for clarification about OT agreement or disagreement, and I guess I was wondering who is in the OT camp versus who is in the Finney camp.

Or, if the OT camp is part of the Finney camp.

You and Knight seem to have answered my question.

Nang
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Clete said:
I'm not being hostile. You're daring Knight to ban you and if I were him, that's exactly what that "question" would have gotten you.

Okay, that's it!

I tried, it didn't work. I'm done.
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Huh????

:jawdrop:

Wow!

That may have been one of the most innocent questions I have ever asked on a discussion group . . .

Wow!

And Knight politely answered me.

What is your problem?

Nang
 
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godrulz

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Nang said:
Thank you . . .I did not think so, but this idea has been persistently purported on this "Open Theism" thread . . .so I simply asked for clarification about OT agreement or disagreement, and I guess I was wondering who is in the OT camp versus who is in the Finney camp.

Or, if the OT camp is part of the Finney camp.

You and Knight seem to have answered my question.

Nang
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I happen to appreciate Finney and Open Theism, but most OT probably are not even familiar with Finney's teaching in detail. Finney also did not teach sinless perfectionism, though he has been accused of it. He would believe as I do that Christians should not, will not sin, but would not say that they literally cannot sin (believers in the Bible and church history have committed adultery or immorality, which are sins, without being cast down as unbelievers).

Most Mid-Acts TOL Open Theists do not seem to support e4e, Mystery, Lighthouse on this sinless issue.
 
Ask Mr. Religion

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zapp

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why do hannegraaff and others call Finney heretical and are dismissive about his ministry?....
off-topic, but since he was mentioned.... I'm in awe of that whole Awakening.

John Wesley taught/preached Sinless Perfection, famously calling such a state the "blessed privilege" of all who have been born again. In his usual direct manner he defined the term right up front and then colored-in at length.

Question for you smartguys: can someone lay out for me the several "types" of 'Perfection' doctrines? it seems the old holiness crowd had an idea of a "sanctification event", the Wesleyan-type offered a "sanctification process & expectation", then there are various groups, not all of them orthodox, that simply "declare victory and move on".... Perfection is a state already attained, you just aren't informed of it....
 
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godrulz

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zapp said:
why do hannegraaff and others call Finney heretical and are dismissive about his ministry?....
off-topic, but since he was mentioned.... I'm in awe of that whole Awakening.

John Wesley taught/preached Sinless Perfection, famously calling such a state the "blessed privilege" of all who have been born again. In his usual direct manner he defined the term right up front and then colored-in at length.

Question for you smartguys: can someone lay out for me the several "types" of 'Perfection' doctrines? it seems the old holiness crowd had an idea of a "sanctification event", the Wesleyan-type offered a "sanctification process & expectation", then there are various groups, not all of them orthodox, that simply "declare victory and move on".... Perfection is a state already attained, you just aren't informed of it....
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There are a variety of perfectionist and sanctification views. Wesley taught 'entire sanctification' or a second work of grace after conversion.

This book looks at 5 major views. They are similar in key ways, but nuanced in other ways. Even the Reformed view recognizes a manward (synergistic) element in addition to the Godward element.

http://www.amazon.com/Five-Views-Sanctification-Melvin-Dieter/dp/0310212693

(click search inside for contents)
 
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