ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[Philetus]

If it is possible for anyone what prevents it from being actual? [/qoute]Rejecting the gospel.Being made alive by the Spirit.

What prevents that from being actual?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I've always found it odd that, although God is immutable to the Calvinist, He can decree something as His decretive will that His prescriptive will is adamantly opposed to, and yet claim to be holy and righteous.

As Charlie Chan used to say to the errant speaker, "Contradiction!".

A careful reading of Scriptures shows that God’s decretive will includes many things which God forbids in His preceptive will, and excludes many things which He commands in His preceptive will, see Gen. 22; Ex. 4:21-23; II Kings 20:1-7; Acts 2:23. Yet we must maintain both the decretive and preceptive will of God with the understanding that, while they appear to us as distinct, they are yet fundamentally one in God. Any supposed contradictions you see are born out of your own misunderstandings and fallible reasoning, and not with the nature of God's will.

 

[Mystery]

What prevents that from being actual?

Prevents what?

 

[Philetus]

As Charlie Chan used to say to the errant speaker, "Contradiction!".

A careful reading of Scriptures shows that God’s decretive will includes many things which God forbids in His preceptive will, and excludes many things which He commands in His preceptive will, see Gen. 22; Ex. 4:21-23; II Kings 20:1-7; Acts 2:23. Yet we must maintain both the decretive and preceptive will of God with the understanding that, while they appear to us as distinct, they are yet fundamentally one in God. Any supposed contradictions you see are born out of your own misunderstandings and fallible reasoning, and not with the nature of God's will.

By all means let’s not "conflate" the two. Otherwise God might look self-contradicting.
:chew:

Ask Mr. Religion:
Again, we need to not conflate providence and the decree of God. As Sovereign, nothing is outside of God's providential control. However, divine providence does not impose necessity on all things, as God wills some things to occur by necessity and others by contingencies based upon the self-determining choices of His creatures. That is, God’s sovereign will is that will of God by which He purposes or decrees whatever shall come to pass, whether He wills to accomplish this effectively (causatively), or to permit it to occur through the unrestrained agency of His creatures.

 

[Philetus]

Prevents what?

Sorry, I missed the 'rejection of the Gospel' part.

That's all I was asking.

 

[Mystery]

Sorry, I missed the 'rejection of the Gospel' part.

That's all I was asking.

You do know that I think Calvinism is a cult, right?

 

[Philetus]

Rejecting the gospel.
Being made alive by the Spirit.

I agree. How do you understand the work of the Spirit to advance the Gospel? Any thoughts on:

Acts 2:16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Acts 2:21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'

Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

Do you believe the Spirit is at work in/on 'all people' to facilitate 'acceptance' of the Gospel?

 

[Philetus]

You do know that I think Calvinism is a cult, right?

I hadn't really thought of it in that way. I'll work to bring my opinion up to par with yours. :chuckle:

 

[Lighthouse]

round and round and roudn and unsoudn and I sin, andI son't din and I sin and isownt nis ...
dualism at its worst.

Is there sin in Christ?

 

[Mystery]

Do you believe the Spirit is at work in/on 'all people' to facilitate 'acceptance' of the Gospel?

The Spirit convicts the world of sin and righteousness and judgment. In regard to sin because they do not believe in Jesus. The gospel itself is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes in Jesus. In the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed. The Holy Spirit was sent to to make known that all men are sinners, and that God is righteous and that faith in Christ for the sacrifice of our sins, and to receive His righteousness is available to all who believe. Some reject the Holy Spirit's ministry, and remain dead and lost.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Mystery... Lighthouse... are we on topic? Or have we veered off into Christians cannot sin territory?

 

[Lighthouse]

You are giving answer here to:

Originally Posted by Lighthouse
That which is in Christ does not sin. The flesh is not in Christ, and is full of sin. That which is sanctified does not. Understand?


This is Gnostic thought.

Christian continue to be sinners, even though they have the Holy Spirit indwelling. This causes a tension between flesh and spirit as taught by Paul in Romans 7&8.

This is the reason and necessity for the Holy Spirit in us to intercede on our behalf in prayer, and this is the reason and necessity for Jesus Christ to mediate on our behalf at the right hand of the Father.

We are saved by this grace, not by any removal of sin from our persons. Sins are forgiven and propitiated, but they are not removed. The wages of sin (death) has been paid, and therefore the Father can look upon us and see no sin, because we are accepted by Him in Christ, the Beloved. (Eph. 1:6)

Nang

Gnostic thought? Does God account your sins to you? Is there sin in Christ?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Is there sin in Christ?

What would that even mean?

More importantly, you are off topic.

 

[Lighthouse]

Mystery... Lighthouse... are we on topic? Or have we veered off into Christians cannot sin territory?

Oops. Well, since Philetus brought it up, I assume he wants to talk about it. So, if you want to move the posts into a new thread, that is OK with me.

I apologize for engaging in the rabbit trail, though.

 

[Lighthouse]

This is another case of a Calvinist changing the meaning of a word to fit his theology.

Mystery: Define "worth."

Mystery is open view.

 

[Nang]

I've always found it odd that, although God is immutable to the Calvinist, He can decree something as His decretive will that His prescriptive will is adamantly opposed to, and yet claim to be holy and righteous.

Not all Calvinists go along with this decretive/prescriptive-will business.

I for one, believe God exercises one will with one purpose which cannot be thwarted in any way by human willfulness.

However, you will not see AMR and Nang calling each other names over their theological differences, because we respect each other and value a good witness to Jesus Christ on these boards.

And the fact that we do have agreeable disagreements, proves Calvinists are not cultish.

That is a silly charge.

Nang

 

[godrulz]

Is there sin in Christ?

Christ is sinless. We were sinners. We are now saints, but that does not preclude an isolated lapse into sin by choice (believers commit adultery...it is their wills and genitals, so saying it is an impersonal flesh doing it without us being responsible because Christ is in us is not biblical. We sin with our flesh). Being in Christ does not make us sock puppets or robots. We still have a will and mind that must be yielding to Him, not the flesh. The Corinthians were rebuked for sinning despite being called saints.

 

[godrulz]

Mystery is open view.

Since when? He was not before his wilderness experience? Funny how he jumps on views, but is dogmatic to the death while he believes an opposite view before the change and expects everyone else to believe it or risk eternal damnation.

 

[Mystery]

Mystery... Lighthouse... are we on topic? Or have we veered off into Christians cannot sin territory?

I'll just stay out of all conversations where I might be tempted to using biblical words and ideas that offend you.


Good enough?

 

[Lighthouse]

There was no first act. God has always existed and has always had an on going love relationship with the members of the Trinity thus there was never a time when God was not righteous.

So, is He righteous because He practices righteousness, or does He practice righteousness, because He is righteous?

What does this have to do with the topic?

:bang:

We are only righteous IN HIM and that righteousness is based on Christ's righteous ACT. We are not declared righteous unjustly or by fiat but on the basis of the one Man's righteous ACT!!!

Therefore it is not by any of our acts we are righteous. And He is performed that righteous act, because He is righteous, not the other way around.

Would you like for me to quote that another half a dozen times?

Is it going to change that He is not righteous because of His actions? Or that we are not righteous because of our actions?

Hell wouldn't exist but for sin and separation from God (i.e. death) is the just penalty for sin.

What does this have to do with what we are talking about?[/quote]
He died for our sins. Now people go to Hell because they reject Him, and His death, burial and resurrection for our sins.