ARCHIVE: Danger, Public School Ahead (Written April 24, 1999)

[Prisca]

Atheist

Atheist

You said, “We had a lot of teenage pregnancies at one of the schools I went to - but we also had little sex ed. What we did have was someone who told us not to have sex - because it was bad...as I recall - I don’t think the two things are necessarily linked.”

Let me ask you this, where there more teen pregnancies before the schools began sex education programs or after they began sex education programs?

Now I know you’re pretty young, so you may not know the answer right away. But what do you think?

Let me just add this, when I was in fifth grade (in about 1968) our schools where just beginning to add sex education to the curriculum. It was a bit of a controversy and many parents were not sure what they should do. But in the end, most trusted the education system to do what they thought was right.

 

[Prisca]

1013

1013

You said, “On the music issue, we have alot of homeschoolers at my church, many of whom are good at piano, but the singing skills they acquire cannot compare to the kids who recieved a music education at public school. ”

There may be some truth to this, as my kids are not interested in singing at all. They would hate it if I signed them up for choir. I, on the other hand, truly enjoyed choir when I was in school.

But in defense of homeschoolers, I must tell you that we have a homeschooled girl on our worship team at church. She has a beautiful voice and she isn’t afraid to use it. Her family seems to place a high value on the performing arts, and it shows. I suppose it all depends on the families and individuals involved.

 

[Atheist_Divine]

Becky,

Let me ask you this, where there more teen pregnancies before the schools began sex education programs or after they began sex education programs?

We never had a proper sex ed class. We just got told not to do it. Teenage pregnancies started rising around the same time as the rest of the region had an increase in teenage pregnancies. Most of the other schools did have sex ed classes, with free condoms etc, but we didn't.

 

[Prisca]

Atheist

Atheist

You said, “We never had a proper sex ed class. We just got told not to do it.

How did you know what "not to do"? The more detailed the sex ed programs seem to get, the worse the teen pregnancy problem becomes. I’m not saying kids shouldn’t be taught anything – just that there should be better judgment on the part of educators. When I was in school, we mostly learned about our own bodies and what to expect from maturation. When I reached high school, there was only one teen pregnancy that became public knowledge, from my graduating class. There was still a stigma attached to teen pregnancy that helped to protect many young people from engaging in risky behavior.

Just as with the drug awareness programs, which have only produced more drug abuse, sex education programs have produced more sexual promiscuity

 

[Zakath]

Re: Atheist

Re: Atheist

Originally posted by Becky

The more detailed the sex ed programs seem to get, the worse the teen pregnancy problem becomes...

Just as with the drug awareness programs, which have only produced more drug abuse, sex education programs have produced more sexual promiscuity

You appear to be committing a logical fallacy here, Becky. You are attributing a percieved change in a complex set of behaviors (sexual practices, illicit drug use) to a single cause.

I'd suggest that this is overly simplistic. There is not a single peer-reviewed study that indicates that teaching kids about avoiding drug abuse increases the likelihood that the youngsters will abuse drugs sometime during their lives.

Remember there are many other contributing factors to drug abuse and sexual activity among minors, including:

• a larger selection of drugs is available now than was available thirty years ago
• drug prices have gone down (per dose) compared to thirty years ago
• innumerable public figures (politicians, sports stars, clergy, police, etc.) have been arrested and prosecuted for possessing and using illegal drugs or engaging in illegal sexual activity and received minimal sentences
• funds from illegal drug trade has well-documented ties to supporting a number of national governments
• "selling with sex" is a staple tradition of American advertising over the last fifty or so years

Hardly an exhaustive list, but it illustrates the tip of the iceberg that sexuality and illegal drug use forms in our society.

 

[lucybelle]

Oh yeah...about the music thing...I am a voice major now.. I was homeschooled and believe it or not I learned how to sing through being homeschooled. We have a group that does musicals...everything from Joesph and the Amazing Techincolor Dreamcoat to The Sound of Music...Homeschoolers can sing, and not to brag, but some of us are pretty darn good. So...yea, we sing, and we have plenty of opportunities to.
Lucy

 

[Atheist_Divine]

Becky,

When I was in school, we mostly learned about our own bodies and what to expect from maturation.

Our sex ed teacher was a little strange...I don't recall her telling us anything at all. Except that rape is always a woman's fault, and sex is bad. We got told nothing of what to expect from puberty, nothing about what sex is, how its done etc etc.

There was still a stigma attached to teen pregnancy that helped to protect many young people from engaging in risky behavior.

Doesn't do much for those who became pregnant though. To be stigmatised for a mistake, and these things tend to pass on to the children too.
Most unpleasant.

~AD~

 

[Prisca]

Zakath

Zakath

You said, “You are attributing a perceived change in a complex set of behaviors (sexual practices, illicit drug use) to a single cause.”

Actually, I would agree that there are many factors that contribute to the problems of teen drug use and sexual promiscuity, but there is a historical relationship between the rise of these problems and the educational programs used by the schools.

"Basically, we have found again and again that drug education in schools causes kids to take on drugs and alcohol sooner than they would without the education." Richard H. Blum, Stanford University School of Medicine.

For example, the DARE program, which began in LA during the 1980’s and eventually spread throughout the country, is aimed primarily at 5th graders, but according to a 1996-97 PRIDE (National Parents' Resource Institute for Drug Education) survey, the rate of drug use among 6th, 7th, and 8th graders reported significant increases in the use of marijuana, cocaine, uppers, downers, hallucinogens, and heroin abuse. Coincidence or evidence?

 

[Prisca]

Atheist,

Atheist,

You said, “Our sex ed teacher was a little strange...I don't recall her telling us anything at all. Except that rape is always a woman's fault, and sex is bad. We got told nothing of what to expect from puberty, nothing about what sex is, how it’s done etc, etc.”

Well, your experience with one “strange” teacher doesn’t add much to the argument at hand. I have presented evidence that demonstrates relationships between educational programs and increases in sexual promiscuity (page 3) and drug abuse (above). It seems as if you are attempting to avoid the real issue.

You said, “Doesn't do much for those who became pregnant though. To be stigmatised for a mistake, and these things tend to pass on to the children too.
Most unpleasant.

You miss the point. The stigma helps to prevent the “mistake.” It is not 100% foolproof, but it does work. In the end, what does society (and the individual) gain from this type of stigma? Where do we start? Take a moment to contemplate the problems that could be avoided if individuals, on a large scale, were discouraged from engaging in these risky behaviors. The sociological use of stigmas, in regard to dangerous or risky behavior can, and does, have a positive impact on the community at large.

P.S. to Zakath - I am not advocating ALL types of stigmas.

 

[Zakath]

Re: Zakath

Re: Zakath

Originally posted by Becky

Actually, I would agree that there are many factors that contribute to the problems of teen drug use and sexual promiscuity, but there is a historical relationship between the rise of these problems and the educational programs used by the schools.

There's an old saw used when teaching statistics and probability in undergrad school that everyone who tries to use statistics should be aware of:

Correlation does not equal causation.

Just because two or more events occur close to each other in time, there does not need to be a causitive relationship.

For example, there has been a traditional relationship presented by certain religious groups asserting that the banning of prayer in public schools is responsible for the rise in disorder and crime in those schools. Yet when we look at the data for the years prior to 1963 and graph it along side the post prayer-banning data, it is easily seen that the rise is merely the continuation of an existing trend which began in the early 1950's. The banning of prayer was merely an incident which people use to "sell their point".

Comparing a study group to a control group (a group where the variable or suspected cause did not change) is sometimes helpful to determine whether the cause is really a cause or just a co-related event. In the case described above, one might compare the problem rates in schools which did not ban prayer, the Roman Catholic parochial schools, to see if they rose over the same period. Their problem rate shows a similar rise (though not as steep).

For example, the DARE program, which began in LA during the 1980?s and eventually spread throughout the country, is aimed primarily at 5th graders, but according to a 1996-97 PRIDE (National Parents' Resource Institute for Drug Education) survey, the rate of drug use among 6th, 7th, and 8th graders reported significant increases in the use of marijuana, cocaine, uppers, downers, hallucinogens, and heroin abuse. Coincidence or evidence?

Remember: correlation does not equal causation. Did PRIDE do any studies comparing the drug use rates in similar schools that did not use the DARE program over the same period of time?

If not, then whoever designed the study is doing what is called "cherry picking" the data to prove a political point.

I found PRIDE's annual survey press release for 2000-2001 school year and their statistics were interesting... (see http://www.pridesurveys.com/press/2000-01/2001prl.pdf )

There was a 0.1 % (yes, that one-tenth of one percent) rise in 2000-2001 admissions of drug use by the jr. high kids surveyed.

This follows a steady drop in the rate of admitted use for the same group every year for the preceding four years.

So, if we were ignorant of scientific and mathematical judgement, we could say that electing a Republican to the White House produced a rise in junior high drug abuse. But, in reality, that would not be a valid conclusion to draw without other corraborating information, because correlation does not equal causation.

I hope that illustrates my point...

 

[Atheist_Divine]

Becky,

Well, your experience with one “strange” teacher doesn’t add much to the argument at hand. I have presented evidence that demonstrates relationships between educational programs and increases in sexual promiscuity (page 3) and drug abuse (above). It seems as if you are attempting to avoid the real issue.

As I see Zakath is bringing out surveys and whatnot, I'll not go scouring the net for more. I present my experience where advocating abstinence did absolutely nothing to decrease the level of teenage pregnancies. We followed every other school - there had been few to no teenage pregnancies before I and my contemporaries came to school, and we had a fair few while we where there. The teaching had not changed, abstinence was still advocated. Girls still got pregnant. Possibly people were more promiscuous - but in my school at least, this had absolutely nothing to do with abstinence being taught. I think you must look for other factors.

You miss the point. The stigma helps to prevent the “mistake.” It is not 100% foolproof, but it does work. In the end, what does society (and the individual) gain from this type of stigma? Where do we start? Take a moment to contemplate the problems that could be avoided if individuals, on a large scale, were discouraged from engaging in these risky behaviors. The sociological use of stigmas, in regard to dangerous or risky behavior can, and does, have a positive impact on the community at large.

The good of the many outweighs the good of the few?

 

[Evangelion]

I'm confused.

I'm confused.

The title of this thread was "Danger, Public School Ahead."

But the author of the original article was actually discussing the Colombine massacre - an incident which has nothing to do with public schools, and everything to do with gun control.

Could it be that this is just another way of passing the buck, so as to preserve the oh-so-precious 2nd Amendment?

I mean, what's the point of getting on your high horse and teaching your kids at home, if at the same time you're brainwashing those kids to believe that they have an inalienable right to keep and bear arms?

It's a moral contradiction.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

Evangelion, I can't help but agree. The idea that it was Public School that caused the tragedy and not lax gun control is simply absurd.

Peace,
Pilgrim

PS I know that there was personal responsability on the parts of the kids and parents involved but ultimately it is the human inability to take responsability the requires adequate gun control laws.

 

[Evangelion]

I knew there was a reason I liked you, Pilgrim.

Thanks for the support.

:up:

 

[me again]

Active-Shooters

Active-Shooters

I used to be a school resource officer, so I am very familiar with all the new protocols on how to handled an emergency crisis in a school. At Columbine, the sheriff’s office was criticized for not being swifter (for not going into the school quickly to stop the student-shooters). As a result, the Columbine incident has been studied extensively and "responce techniques" are changing.

A growing philosophy among law enforcement agencies is to go directly into the school when the first three or four patrol officers arrive on-scene (that is, if you have an “active shooter” in the school). We have now been trained in such methods. Naturally, the officers have no idea who the good students are and who the bad students are, unless weapons are seen, particularly in the larger public schools.

We have been trained to enter any school in three man teams using urban combat techniques, sort of like going door-to-door in WWII combat movies. Every officer on my agency has received this type of training to prepare for the worst. The goal is to ”stop the threat” by any means necessary (shoot to kill).

In the old days (prior to the Columbine incident), patrol officers were trained to encircle the perimeter and to wait for the SWAT team to arrive. This methodology was implemented at Columbine, but the political backlash of ”waiting” while students were possibly being shot has changed the philosophy of many agencies.

FYI

 

[Evangelion]

• The very fact that the Religious Right is opposed to any form of gun control should tell you that American Christianity is wildly astray from the Biblical model.
  
• The very fact that your police have been forced to establish an official response policy for high school shootings should tell you that your society is more perverted than you could possibly imagine.
  
• The very fact that Australia (along with every other nation in the developed West) has never found any need for such a policy, should tell you that we are getting it right where you are getting it wrong.

 

[me again]

minority view

minority view

• Posted by Evangelion
• The very fact that the Religious Right is opposed to any form of gun control should tell you that American Christianity is wildly astray from the Biblical model.
  
• The very fact that your police have been forced to establish an official response policy for high school shootings should tell you that your society is more perverted than you could possibly imagine.
  
• The very fact that Australia (along with every other nation in the developed West) has never found any need for such a policy, should tell you that we are getting it right where you are getting it wrong.

Hi Evangelion,

I differ from almost everyone that I associate with in that I am pro gun control. I would like to see the second amendment abolished, but I may not have to do this because the courts interpretation of it is doing it for me.

For example, at the inception of the United States, the second amendment guaranteed that an American citizen could take his ”ball and musket” anywhere in this country, to include through cities and across state lines. I dare anyone to try that today!!! Ordinances and laws have been created that restrict (alter) the second amendments right to keep and bear arms.

Another explicit example is the state of Hawaii where all firearms must be registered. The right wingers don’t know about this statewide law!!! Does it abridge the second amendment? For example, you can keep and bear arms as long as you register them with the state....

I believe in Jesus, but I have seen too many gun nuts to the point that I think that guns should be highly controlled items. However, I do believe that my opinion is in the minority. Contrarily and nonetheless, guns will someday be outlawed with the stroke of a pen.

 

[Evangelion]

Amen!

 

[firechyld]

There has actually been a huge outcry in the news about gang violence in Sydney schools following an incident a few days ago in a school in Western Sydney.

It involved a boy with a machete. Two other boys were hospitalised with minor injuries and are both doing fine.

This made national news, and is considered grounds for major examination of gangs in Australian schools.

Now, I'm not saying that a boy with a machete is necessarily better than several boys with shotguns..... oh wait, yes I am.

While I agree that people are responsible for the violence they perpetrate, I also feel that saying "No, actually, you're not allowed to have a gun" is a good step towards preventing them from acting on those violent urges in a murderous, massacre-type fashion.

 

[Evangelion]

Of course, gang violence of the type you describe is not the result of social problems, but merely a foreign import which has no place in our otherwise peaceful country.

Over here in Wesern Australia, we have several small gangs - two Chinese, one Vietnamese, and one Lebanese - who occasionally attack each other outside nightclubs on the weekend.

All of them are openly condemned by their respective ethnic communities.

And rightly so.