ARCHIVE: Danger, Public School Ahead (Written April 24, 1999)

beanieboy

New member
While I understand what people are saying about the "social skills" thing, most people that I have talked to set up social interaction with other homeschoolers (after first frisking them for guns ;) ). But I've always thought, sure, the kids are homeschooled, but it's not like they aren't going to interact with other kids in church, or in their neighborhood, or little league team. There are a lot of opportunities. It's not like homeschoolers are separatists or anything.
 

Prisca

Pain Killer
Super Moderator
beanieboy,

beanieboy,

You’re right; the idea is not to totally separate our kids from other kids. We simply want the ratio of their interactions to shift from being mostly peer oriented to being more family oriented.

In the past we have been involved with some very large homeschool groups. We would meet every couple of weeks for games, field day, parties, field trips, and special presentations. We have now formed our own group of about 10 to 12 children of varying ages. Our children participate in team sports, performing arts groups, and other social activities.

The goal is to give them a healthy balance of both family and peer group activities.

ani-sled.gif
 

Atheist_Divine

New member
I find the idea of homeschooling intriguing - I don't think we are legally allowed - or at least encouraged - to do that over here in the UK. Perhaps it might have been better for me if we could, as I went to the most apalling primary school I've ever had the misfortune to hear about!
 

Projill

New member
It's always entertaining to me that with as heated as TOL can get at times, at least we have threads like this that are more about sharing information and don't degrade into "my god can beat up your god" or "my the lord smite you". :)
 

Prisca

Pain Killer
Super Moderator
Beanieboy,

Beanieboy,

You asked, “Can homeschool kids get college scholarships for sports? And if so, how do you have to demonstrate that?”

Apparently, by law, the public schools (at least in Colorado) must allow homeschool students to participate in their sports programs. After all, we are still paying our taxes like everyone else. I imagine that these students have as good a shot at sports scholarships as any other public school student.
 

Prisca

Pain Killer
Super Moderator
Atheist,

Atheist,

You said, “I find the idea of homeschooling intriguing - I don't think we are legally allowed - or at least encouraged - to do that over here in the UK. Perhaps it might have been better for me if we could, as I went to the most apalling primary school I've ever had the misfortune to hear about!”
What are your main complaints against the school you attended?

I don’t know if you have any children yet, but here are some helpful resources:

http://www.heas.org.uk/
http://www.education-otherwise.org/legal/summ_law.htm
http://www.education-otherwise.org/legal/deregistration.htm
http://www.schoolhouse.org.uk/
http://www.gomilpitas.com/homeschooling/regional/UK.htm
http://www.home-ed.co.uk/inform9.html
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Lake/3262/heglimpses.htm
http://www.silencingthebell.btinternet.co.uk/parentsstb.html
http://home.att.net/~bandcparker/forms.html
 

Atheist_Divine

New member
Becky,
My primary school was extremely progressive. They did not believe in formal teaching - the idea was, you lead your four-year old to a bookcase, and get them to pick out any book from there that takes their fancy. From that book, without any help from a teacher, they will learn to read and write, and they will also learn maths.
Ludicrous, isn't it?
The school was also full of bullying, and fighting in the classrooms, and it was quite common for parents who didn't agree with the marks their child had got to come in and beat up the headteacher.
Unfortunately I was 7 before my parents realised how bad the school was, and moved me - I had managed to learn to read and right, but knew no maths and had to have special tuition in the private school I moved to. If it had been possible to move to another state school we would have - private schools are expensive - but that school was the only state school in my area! It got closed down a little later, and the staff changed. Apparently its ok now, but it was dreadful when I was there.
I don't have children yet (I'm only 21), but thanks for the urls anyway! :)

AD
 

Prisca

Pain Killer
Super Moderator
Atheist,

Atheist,

Thanks for your story. It reminds me a bit of an experience we had when my oldest daughter was in 2nd grade. During a parent-teacher conference one afternoon, the teacher pulled out a paragraph our daughter had written. We could barely read a word of it, but the teacher was raving over it. She said, “Look how she’s trying to sound out all these words! Isn’t that wonderful?” She told us that she was using the “whole language” approach. The idea was to avoid correcting student errors because that tends to inhibit creativity.

We were young parents who had been taught to trust our educational system. At the time, this approach seemed reasonable. But for years, my daughter had difficulty spelling certain words because the incorrect information had been imprinted into her mind. That is a difficult thing to overcome. I now have my children correct everything they spell immediately and they seem as creative as ever.

Analogy:

If you are going to teach someone to sew, you don’t just throw him a piece of cloth. You show him how to thread the needle and how to form each stitch. Once he has learned properly, his clothes will not come apart at the seams. LOL.
 

Projill

New member
Becky, I'm sorry your daughter had such an experience. My elementary years were probably more like yours: do it like they taught it repeatedly until you do it right. I can honestly say, despite the overall poor quality of my state's schools, I grew up with a pretty good grasp of grammar and spelling. But with the poorest quality math education money couldn't buy.
 

Atheist_Divine

New member
Thanks for your story. It reminds me a bit of an experience we had when my oldest daughter was in 2nd grade. During a parent-teacher conference one afternoon, the teacher pulled out a paragraph our daughter had written. We could barely read a word of it, but the teacher was raving over it. She said, “Look how she’s trying to sound out all these words! Isn’t that wonderful?” She told us that she was using the “whole language” approach. The idea was to avoid correcting student errors because that tends to inhibit creativity.

Yes, I've heard about that method of teaching. Phonetic spelling was supposed to make it easier, but it didn't, in the end. It was part of a whole raft of progressive new teaching methods which, while created with the best of intentions, were disastrous for the children involved. I was lucky from the kids in my school - I was naturally attracted to reading and actually wound up ahead of my contemporaries in it once I moved schools, though with tremendously poor maths - but some of the other kids will probably have remained illiterate, or semi-illiterate simply because it is harder to teach an adult these things. What really made me annoyed is that the Councillor who was in charge of my school on the Local Authority went on to become the Government Minister in charge of school standards! :rolleyes:

When was your daughter in school? As far as I know the really progressive stuff was popular in the 1980's, when I was in primary school. I was actually among the last set of kids to get sex ed lessons about homosexuality, before it was (technically) made illegal - we got taught about it at 6, as I remember. That was about the only thing that school did right - though you may well not agree with me on that!
 

missedmarks

New member
My public school education was horrible.

I had ADD before it was "Fashionable" and no one knew what it was. Teachers, Parents and myself had a hard time figuring out why I tested in the top end of my class, but accademicaly lagged behind.

Plus I was horribly bored. I taught myself to read in kindergarten and was a step ahead for the first few years of school. Things never did get straightened out although they 'discovered' ADD while I was in High School. At least I had an explanation.

I considered homeschooling my son, but we managed to find a good 'alternative' school for him. He is really doing well there. Im not sure what we will do when he gets older (He's 5 right now) but Im sure God will take care of us.
 

lucybelle

TOL Princess
Well that's all very nice and interesting...but I see that no one has touched on the fact that homeschooled students are NOT lacking in "social skills." I ought to know...for my last two years of highschool I was homeschooled. I know what you're thinking..."wow, her last two years of school! that had to have been no fun, she missed prom and lots of parties..poor thing" But you are wrong. I can honestly say, I engaged in more activites with peers outside of the public school than I did inside it. I learned more, studied at my own pace, (while others my age were still learning things I had mastered) and I got to have just as much fun. For example, did you know that there are homeschool societies that nurture the fine arts, or athletic societys that build positive Christian atmospheres for homeschooled students. Or...for that matter, there are complete societies themselves that are specifically support groups for homeschooled students to have interaction with others. Homeschooling really gives kids a heads up in the world, while the other kids my age were putting condoms on bananas in sex education classes I was learning something that is far more important...I was learning to love my family and respect my parents. How many highschool kids can you think of who would call their parents their best friends? Now that I am older, I thank my parents daily for not sending me back to school where 3 of the 10 girls on my cheerleading squad got pregnant in less than 2 months. I don't know about you, but I believe that it is my job to ensure that when I have kids, they learn the important things, stuff that they don't teach in the public school, love and respect.
Lucybelle
 

Prisca

Pain Killer
Super Moderator
Atheist

Atheist

You said, “When was your daughter in school? As far as I know the really progressive stuff was popular in the 1980's, when I was in primary school.”

My daughters were in public school from 1986 – 1994. As far as I can tell, things have not changed all that much. I occasionally tutor my neighbor’s 13 year-old daughter in math. The book her school is using is a piece of garbage! The questions are vague, there are no constructive examples on how to perform the equations, and much is left up to the students “intuition.” Her mother, who is a special-ed teacher at another school, can’t even help her with her homework.

As an example of how messed up the school system can be, read the following and try to guess what the local school board decided to do:

About 4 years ago, a few schools in my district were using Saxon math. It became apparent that the students from those schools were receiving higher math scores on the standardized tests than those at other schools. Something had to be done to make things more “fair.” What do you think they decided to do?

the answer
 

Prisca

Pain Killer
Super Moderator
Atheist

Atheist

You said, “I was actually among the last set of kids to get sex ed lessons about homosexuality, before it was (technically) made illegal - we got taught about it at 6, as I remember. That was about the only thing that school did right - though you may well not agree with me on that!”

What could they possibly teach a 6 year old about homosexuality? Never mind. I don’t want to know. :(
 

Prisca

Pain Killer
Super Moderator
lucybelle,

lucybelle,

You said, “I don't know about you, but I believe that it is my job to ensure that when I have kids, they learn the important things, stuff that they don't teach in the public school, love and respect.”

Thank you, Lucybelle! Your entire post was a great example of what homeschooling is all about.

You also said, “Now that I am older, I thank my parents daily for not sending me back to school where 3 of the 10 girls on my cheerleading squad got pregnant in less than 2 months.
Your cheerleading squad reminded me of what happened at one of the schools here in Colorado:

Abstinence-only advocates point to another study to support their case. In Adams City High in Commerce, Colorado, the first in the U.S. to hand out condoms, the birth rate soared to 31 percent above the national average after three years of the program, according to USA Today. For the abstinence advocates, this finding confirms one of their greatest criticisms of the safe-sex programs. Says Sex Respect's Sullivan: "They have been implementing their sex-education programs stressing birth control for 30 years, and during the same time teenage pregnancies and teenage STDs have increased exponentially." According to government figures between 1970 and 1987, teen pregnancies have increased from 300,000 to 750,000 a year, even though more teens are using contraceptives.

Thanks again,
Becky
 

Atheist_Divine

New member
Becky,
My daughters were in public school from 1986 – 1994. As far as I can tell, things have not changed all that much.

I don't know how things are in the US, you understand, but the UK's big period of progressive teaching methods was in the 80's. I don't quite understand why it was the 80's, as we were under a Conservative government at the time, but that seemed to be the period of a huge explosion in political correctness. I remember being forbidden to read Enid Blyton books, for example, because they are sexist. I remember how irritating that was - as we weren't stupid, we were aware they were sexist, but we ignored that!
In the late 80's - early 90's our compulsory National Curriculum came in, which stopped some of the inequalities in education. Now every school has to follow the same curricula, whether private or public - because pupils are examined on that curricula. If the schools do badly because they have continued to teach in a stupid way, then they are closed down (as my school was), and new staff are appointed, or a government task force is sent to sort it out. Also, of course, the kids who did badly under the old system have gone on to do badly in the exams, and people have noticed that that system was badly flawed.
There are still problems - now because it is government ministers and civil servants who set the curriculum and exams - with input from teachers - but they are not teachers themselves. The only ministers who have had teaching experience tend to be university lecturers, and that is an entirely different method of teaching. Its getting better, though, but there are still problems.

About 4 years ago, a few schools in my district were using Saxon math. It became apparent that the students from those schools were receiving higher math scores on the standardized tests than those at other schools. Something had to be done to make things more “fair.” What do you think they decided to do?

Thats ridiculous. The article said the maths program was withdrawn because of political correctness - but how can maths be politically incorrect?
Wierd.

What could they possibly teach a 6 year old about homosexuality? Never mind. I don’t want to know.

I don't remember all that well. I do know that the school I went to was an example of the schools that eventually moved the government to institute "Clause 28" - which prohibited the promotion of homosexuality. This clause has since been repealed in Scotland - I took part in the campaigns leading up to it being repealed. They were claiming gay pornography was being given to primary school children (which wasn't, in fact, the case). I rather think we were just told that some people loved members of the same sex, I doubt they would have given us anything stronger, not at the age of 6. I do know that when I was reading a biography of a scientist, when I was 7, and it mentioned that he was persecuted for being gay, I understood what that was and couldn't understand why he would be attacked for it. So evidently I remembered something of what I had been taught!

~AD~
 

Atheist_Divine

New member
Becky,
Abstinence-only advocates point to another study to support their case. In Adams City High in Commerce, Colorado, the first in the U.S. to hand out condoms, the birth rate soared to 31 percent above the national average after three years of the program, according to USA Today. For the abstinence advocates, this finding confirms one of their greatest criticisms of the safe-sex programs. Says Sex Respect's Sullivan: "They have been implementing their sex-education programs stressing birth control for 30 years, and during the same time teenage pregnancies and teenage STDs have increased exponentially." According to government figures between 1970 and 1987, teen pregnancies have increased from 300,000 to 750,000 a year, even though more teens are using contraceptives.

We had a lot of teenage pregnancies at one of the schools I went to - but we also had little sex ed. What we did have was someone who told us not to have sex - because it was bad...as I recall - I don;t think the two things are necessarily linked. We got all the old myths circulating - you know the ones, you can't get pregnant if you do it standing up, if its your first time blah blah blah.
Fortunately, my mother used to buy me good sex ed books for my age group, so I at least had correct information - but others did not. To my mind, it was their ignorance which caused the teenage pregnancies, as they were taught abstinence.
 

1013

Post Modern Fundamentalist
Beanieboy asked about how social skills are developed for homeschoolers.

I went to public school, and as a geek, there was nothing sociallizing about it. kids are jerks.

Not all of school was so bad though. I eventually joined both choir and band and somehow, that scheduals you away from the morons destined for jail. not only that, alot of those guys ended up going to vocational school.

aside from that, I'd say that my school was a pretty good public school. the typical steriotype is that most teachers are flkey liberals. At my school, we had a mixture of liberal and conservative teachers. BUt even some of the liberals were in name only and in fact closet conservatives.

on sex ed, I had really flaky teacher promote safe sex, "condoms only have a failure rate of 5% (it was something like that)" :rolleyes:

our school also invited the toledo crisis pregnancy center to come in and promote abstinence.

There was a lot of good and bad.

I'd recomend that homeschoolers do a combination for some things. For example, if your in a district with a good choir program, that is priceless. church choir is absolutely no substitute and the training a good choir teacher can offer simply cannot be reproduced in the home unless you have a degree in music.

some of the higher level science and math coarses also might be good to take at public. and of coarse, sports programs are nonexistent in the home compared to what you could have at public.

I know of a family that had there kid at a private christian school but switched to a combination of public and hoemschooling. they used the school's sports programs and there higher science coarses.

On the music issue, we have alot of homeschoolers at my church, many of whom are good at piano, but the singing skills they acquire cannot compare to the kids who recieved a music education at public school.

of coarse this all depends on whether your district will allow such a thing and they may have crappy programs in music and other areas
 

Prisca

Pain Killer
Super Moderator
Atheist

Atheist

You said, “Thats ridiculous. The article said the maths program was withdrawn because of political correctness - but how can maths be politically incorrect?
Wierd.”
What the article actually said was:
The schools had been using the program which the parents like, because their children have been scoring above the district and national averages on math tests. It seems that successful results are not enough for some school board members and that political correctness outweighs high test scores. I say political correctness is a factor here because the Saxon Math program has been in use for some time now by home school parents and it looks bad for the same program to be outperforming the public school's official programs. The students at all three schools scored above the district and national average on the Iowa Test of Basic Skills.
So, it wasn’t that the Saxon Math program was “politically incorrect” in and of itself, but that it seemed “politically incorrect” for some schools to be using a program that was outperforming other programs, especially because it was also being used by homeschool families.
 
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