An Introduction

[allsmiles]

Chair, I am learning Hebrew. Rudiments really at this point. I am working with a Jewish man I know here in town to learn more and to become proficient. I run things through him to make sure I am understanding properly. Greek, I can do OK with, by no means can I read and write ancient Greek - but I can still get around OK.

Hi Chris, Allsmiles here, resident anti-christ :wave2:

Welcome to the best theology website on the internets.

My old friend Granite was correct. You'll be needing a helmet.

Rather than take you at your word and rather than follow Catty's example of burning calories via jumping to conclusions, I'll ask a question of you:

Can you explain the difference between the Greek words ginomai and gennao?

I'm trusting you to use your brain and not the google.

 

[cattyfan]

Rather than take you at your word and rather than follow Catty's example of burning calories via jumping to conclusions, I'll ask a question of you:

Well...I have to work off that Nutter Butter I ate earlier. :jump:

 

[allsmiles]

Well...I have to work off that Nutter Butter I ate earlier. :jump:

I LOVE Nutter Butters!

It's even fun to say!

 

[Rusha]

I am fairly well educated former Pastor who has left the Christian faith and hold a more agnostic worldview than anything else. In NO way am I meaning to antagonize or rob anyone out of their faith. This is not my purpose in joining. I am not argumentative but will challenge your thinking and I am not afraid to push back on intellectual arguments.

As long as others play nice with me an engage me in a spirit of respect, I will of course oblige them in return. Because we disagree does not mean we must be disagreeable.

Now, what shall we discuss?

Hi Chris :wave:

Being that I can relate to your situation (being a Christian and then stepping away from religion due to lack of convincing evidence of God and other reasons), I would like to know what prompted your change of view.

I notice you are listed as Agnostic. Do you think you were always Agnostic and for other reasons decided to identify yourself as Christian or did you ever genuinely believe?

 

[kmoney]

I left Christianity because I began to do much work and study in biblical Hebrew and Greek as well as Jewish studies. The process was not a quick one and certainly was not one taken in anger. I don't hate Christians, and I certainly don't want to destroy anyone's faith. But I will challenge your thinking - healthy intellectual pitch and catch? I welcome any challenge to my thinking as well.

Can you expand on the Hebrew and Greek studies? What specifically about that led you to agnosticism?

 

[Random]

Can you expand on the Hebrew and Greek studies? What specifically about that led you to agnosticism?

Yeah, I would like to know that as well.

 

[ChrisGergen]

OK - well let me take these one at a time. If I leave you out please ask me again, I may have missed it the first time...

The difference between the two words has to do with the tri-unity of God or not. If memory serves (I could be wrong) the subject comes up in John (?) and has been hotly debated for some time. I don't have an in-depth knowledge of the subject - I haven't researched it, but I will "Google it" and do some homework so we can discuss it if you'd like.

I was a genuine believer. I grew up Catholic (I was an alter boy) and became a born-again Christian February 25th 1993. I left to Liberty University in 1994 and studied theology (and disagreed with most of my professors - I was a pentecostal at a Baptist School). I left Christianity last year because of a lack of evidence. The move to Agnostic came over time. My swing went first to more of a Jewish belief system (I am not claiming I was a Jew - I was not). The Old Testament seemed pretty solid and then I began to study more and found a lack of evidence with this as well. But let me say this, my disillusion came with the Christian assertion that the Bible all its many books is infallible. What to do with this when you believe it but then find errors? This intrigued me so I studied more, looking at both Christian apologists and biblical scholars (non-believing). The more I studied the more it seemed tome the Christian apologists had a desperate feel to their arguments.

 

[allsmiles]

OK - well let me take these one at a time. If I leave you out please ask me again, I may have missed it the first time...

The difference between the two words has to do with the tri-unity of God or not. If memory serves (I could be wrong) the subject comes up in John (?) and has been hotly debated for some time. I don't have an in-depth knowledge of the subject - I haven't researched it, but I will "Google it" and do some homework so we can discuss it if you'd like.

My question was a bit of a tall order Chris, don't sweat it. I probably could have been more specific or not put limitations on your resources. Or both. At any rate it's encouraging to see that you're willing to look into any subject. Most people around here prefer to not look into anything that doesn't jive with their bizarre and unrealistic presuppositions.

 

[Town Heretic]

Yes I am that Chris Gergen.

Well, you would know…assuming you’re certain and don’t change your mind once you think about it a little more. lain:

It amazes me that some of you have such little to do that you would attack a new person as they try to show themselves friendly and simply explain the perspective from which they approach a new forum.

So the “hey folks, I thought like a number of you before I became the better educated creature you see before you” was your idea of friendly? :think: Good to know the scale then.

I left Christianity because I began to do much work and study in biblical Hebrew and Greek as well as Jewish studies.

Nah. There are too many men of substantive education and genius who’ve moved against that course for intellect to be the reason in the way you imply. Rather, to my mind, you entertained doubt and it led you where it would, just as the mind that entertains faith finds another journey.

…I don't hate Christians, and I certainly don't want to destroy anyone's faith.

Good news then. We should be able to dispassionately discuss religion and the particulars of faith without it turning into a nasty bit of negative declaration and unsupported innuendo. :thumb:

… My opinion of Paul is that he was a liar and the Apostles in Jerusalem knew it and tried to either manage him or eliminate him altogether.

...or not. lain:

…I showed myself open and kind...I want no part of a fight with an arrogant self-righteous women and her Pastor Husband. I bet you're winning thousands with that attitude...

Maybe you should have told us about your humility first. That might have made a difference. I reference mine in the signature line and I can tell you it really cuts down on misunderstandings...

I studied theology at Liberty University in the early 90's. I left it off because I don't hold those religious views any longer...

I had lunch at M.I.T. I left because the cafeteria closed.

I am well-educated...maybe not Masters level divinity educated, but I am well-educated. Well-enough educated to operate million dollar equipment in the military while flying missions during combat.

So would my Juris Doctor get me some flying time in one of those jets? :think:

... Serving God was an honor I did because I love people.

Don't you mean because you loved God?

Don't talk down to me.

I don’t think it possible unless you get me time in one of those jets.

Did I mention I have a Doctorate?

I've been in the trenches both in wartime and in the ministry.

Then you have my respect for the first and my condolences for failing the latter.

I came to a different conclusion theologically than you,

No, you abandoned one conclusion for another. How long you’ll keep this one is anybody’s guess.

And in case I forgot, welcome. :e4e:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

No, you abandoned one conclusion for another. How long you’ll keep this one is anybody’s guess.

Ouch!

 

[ChrisGergen]

Mr. Heretic, well said.

And no, the Juris Doctorate does not get a flight in one of those jets - they only take snotty little punks with more education than life experience! Besides your heroics are better used in the court saving us from those within, while we fly and save some from those without.

As for my conclusions and shift - an interesting assertion, one I will think about.

Thanks for the warm welcome...

 

[kmoney]

OK - well let me take these one at a time. If I leave you out please ask me again, I may have missed it the first time...

The difference between the two words has to do with the tri-unity of God or not. If memory serves (I could be wrong) the subject comes up in John (?) and has been hotly debated for some time. I don't have an in-depth knowledge of the subject - I haven't researched it, but I will "Google it" and do some homework so we can discuss it if you'd like.

I was a genuine believer. I grew up Catholic (I was an alter boy) and became a born-again Christian February 25th 1993. I left to Liberty University in 1994 and studied theology (and disagreed with most of my professors - I was a pentecostal at a Baptist School). I left Christianity last year because of a lack of evidence. The move to Agnostic came over time. My swing went first to more of a Jewish belief system (I am not claiming I was a Jew - I was not). The Old Testament seemed pretty solid and then I began to study more and found a lack of evidence with this as well. But let me say this, my disillusion came with the Christian assertion that the Bible all its many books is infallible. What to do with this when you believe it but then find errors? This intrigued me so I studied more, looking at both Christian apologists and biblical scholars (non-believing). The more I studied the more it seemed tome the Christian apologists had a desperate feel to their arguments.

Do you think a fallible bible is incompatible with Christianity?
What exactly do you mean by a "desparate" feel to their arguments?

 

[Town Heretic]

Mr. Heretic, well said.

And no, the Juris Doctorate does not get a flight in one of those jets - they only take snotty little punks with more education than life experience! Besides your heroics are better used in the court saving us from those within, while we fly and save some from those without.

And I'm about 6'3" which I'm told would make accommodations a bit cramped. :think:

As for my conclusions and shift - an interesting assertion, one I will think about.

Shoot...as I said elsewhere, you may hang over the plate, but you keep coming back to bat. I suspect that will serve you well in the long term. :Clete:

As for cattyfan's ire, we all have hot buttons. I'm not overly fond of people declaring or insinuating that intellectual interest or honesty destroyed their faith. It's both needlessly insulting in insinuation and contrary to a host of examples, past to present, who have had the opposite experience. I have much more respect for those who simply note that they made a decision based on their understanding and perspective, who take personal responsibility for the end result without attempting to make it sound either inevitable or nearly contrary to their heart's desire. While the former might strike me as tragic, it demands a respect the latter cannot.

Thanks for the warm welcome...

There's a reason Knight is fond of saying "Welcome to the jungle." And it doesn't have anything to do with melody.

Percussion maybe...:maxi:

 

[ChrisGergen]

KMoney:

I think early Jewish Christians honestly believed Jesus to be their Messiah that would deliver them from the Romans. When this did not happen and Paul's anti-Jewish, anti-law theology spread throughout the Greek speaking world things began to become clouded as to who this Jesus figure really was. Before long, Jesus went from being the a Jewish Messianic figure to being a God/Man figure akin to many pagan ideas. Remember, the synoptic gospels were not written until at least the mid 60's but probably after 70 AD. Almost 30 to 40 years had passed and in that time much of what he said and did had been lost. I believe Mark to be the first gospel written and Mark was written from a document called 'Q'. John being a much different gospel was probably written in the late 70's by a couple different authors. My point is this, if fallible it is not God inspired as the Christians claim. If infallible and divine, God has clerical issues. If divine and corrupted by man, God is not capable to preserve a document, how then can he preserve my soul?

As for the desperate claim - I think what I meant was (and I apologize for not being clear) the defenses always came from the same sources - namely the Bible. It is like saying I am my own best witness and if I agree with myself what I claim must be true. Yes the Bible does have many authors, however many times these authors disagree - such as Luke and Matthew, Luke and Paul, Paul and himself, and several others. The defenses for these are a blind turning away from physical evidence - in my most humble opinion.

 

[always_learning]

Checking in late...

Checking in late...

Due to my youth, and my unusual necessity to work during the day, I'm a little late on this thread, but...

Welcome to TOL!

I see you've been properly introduced. Work through the introduction, life can actually be pretty good here. Rather boring at times, but then a newbie shows up and we're livened up again.

I'm looking forward to yet another view in the discussions. Once again, welcome!

 

[ChrisGergen]

Thank you! I am glad to be here.

 

[cattyfan]

But I have a laundry list of people that would stand up and say I saved their lives because I loved them.

This is the attitude that has annoyed me from your first post.

YOU didn't save anyone. The only saving that gets done is by Christ...by the Holy Spirit.

 

[ChrisGergen]

Are you for real?

Can you please leave me alone? I'm trying to be nice. Now you are just being psychotic. Go harass someone else please. Your comments are not welcome to me.

I left Christianity for my own reasons. Get over it.

 

[cattyfan]

Your comments are not welcome to me.

I left Christianity for my own reasons. Get over it.

Tell ya what...I'll quit posting on this thread. But I'll continue to pray for you.

 

[allsmiles]

Tell ya what...I'll quit posting on this thread. But I'll continue to pray for you.

What will you pray for specifically? If you don't mind me asking that is...