ECT All Things Are Lawful For Me

[glorydaz]

That is about the Jews as a nation of people. Paul is explaining that a whole race of people are not cut off forever.

Ah, when it suits you, it's about a nation, and when it doesn't, you scoff at the notion.

You are tossed to and fro like a row boat without an anchor or an oar during a wind storm, God's UNtruth. I'm sure people get seasick just from watching you. :chuckle:

 

[God's Truth]

Why do you quote my words and then just ignore them? I proved that the "works of law" referred to in this verse are in regard to the moral law and not the purification works:

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

I showed in the same epistle that Paul made it plain that it was the moral law which gave him the knowledge of the law. And since you have no answer for that you just ignore those facts and change the subject as fast as you can in the hope that no one will notice that you have no answer.

You did not even attempt to defend your view that the words "works of law" refer to purification law.

All you do is to run away from the truth as fast as you can!

I did explain it to you. I explained how righteousness by faith is Jesus cleaning us instead of our having to do the righteous works of the law which are the purification works.

 

[God's Truth]

We are always working at something, whether we work doing bad or we work doing good. If you do not think you have to do good to be saved, then you must think you have to do bad to be saved.

Romans 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

The scripture says sin is a work too.

You claim we do not have to obey and that it is a works salvation.

Sin is a work too.

If you are not working by obeying, then YOU ARE WORKING BY SINNING.

You have to repent of your sins to be saved and to stay saved.

 

[God's Truth]

I read that you are denying that the truth that the LORD will not revoke the gifts He gives to believers despite the fact that Paul says that he will not:

"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).​

This does not say just some gifts are irrevocable, as you imagaine! Instead he says that God's gifts are irrevocable. And that includes the "gift of eternal life"(Ro.6:23), the same gift which Christians now enjoy (1 Jn.5:11).

And the Lord Jesus says that all those to whom he gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

Are you willing to argue that the Christians who have been given eternal life can perish?

I have explained to you that Paul was speaking about the Jews being able to still get saved because God will still let them.

However, you do not want to be thankful for my explaining the truth to you and you want to jump to OSAS.

We can walk away from God. Jesus warns us for a reason.

People can fall away from Jesus see Galatians 5:4; 1 Corinthians 10:12; 2 Peter 3:17. We are warned not to drift away, Hebrews 2:1, not to draw back, Hebrews 10:38; to hold on and stand firm, Hebrews 3:14, 1 Corinthians 15:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15. We are told how not to fall, 2 Peter 1:10, how not to be hardened, Hebrews 3:8,13.

God can throw people out, Matthew 22:13, blot people out, Exodus 32:32-33, remove your lampstand, Revelation 2:5, sign you a place with unbelievers, Luke 12:46, and cut you off, Romans 11:19-21. We can become defiled, Hebrews 12:15. Our lamps can burn out, Matthew 25:8. We can cause ourselves to have to have Christ formed in us again, Galatians 4:19.

We are told how to remain in Jesus, John 6:56, and if we do Jesus will remain in us, John 15:4. Jesus tells us of the good if we remain in him, John 15:5, and of the bad when we do not, John 15:6. Jesus exhorts us to remain in him, John 15:9, 10, Acts 14:22, and 1 John 2:24.

 

[God's Truth]

Are you really so uninformed that you do not even know that a person receives the forgiveness of sins when they believe (Acts 10:43).

I gave you many scriptures before and explained this carefully to you how we have to believe Jesus gives forgiveness of sins. We have to repent to have forgiveness of sins.

Your silly ideas are contradicted by the Scriptures at every turn including what you foolishly said here:

Here we see that the Spirit comes to those who believe that the Spirit comes to those who believe, not to those who obey, as you imagine:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal.3:1-3).​

hahahaha Paul is not rebuking the Galatians for obeying Jesus too much! Paul is rebuking the Galatians for trying to clean themselves the way the Jews used to, i.e. circumcision and the observance of special days.

Here we see that the Spirit is received by faith. According to your foolish ideas no one can receive the Spirit except by obeying. Do you never read the Scriptures or do you read them and then deny what they say?

I see from the scriptures that we can receive the Holy Spirit after we repent and are baptized (Acts 2:38). We receive the Holy Spirit when God shows that he accepts us (Acts 15:8); for obeying, "...the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Read these scriptures carefully. Jesus says they will receive the Holy Spirit if they obey. John 14:15-31 “If you love me, you will obey what I command. and I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--- the Spirit of truth.

Jesus will not even live with you unless you obey. John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Even Cornelius had an angel come to him to tell him to send for Peter, and that is when he and his whole household received the Holy Spirit because they were God fearing and righteous people, for that is to whom the message is sent. See Acts 10:22; Acts 10:35 and Acts 13:26.

 

[God's Truth]

Amen. :thumb:

She has to run away from that one, Jerry, because it is the foundation on which she's built her false faith. You've just explained it better than I've yet seen....clear as a bell, but she really has to run away lest she prove herself a charlatan.

I do not run away from the Truth. I already explained it to Jerry carefully, and then I just explained it again.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

hahahaha Paul is not rebuking the Galatians for obeying Jesus too much! Paul is rebuking the Galatians for trying to clean themselves the way the Jews used to, i.e. circumcision and the observance of special days.

Why are you changing the subject? Again, here is what you said:

God only gives His Spirit and understanding to those who obey.

Here we see that the Spirit comes to those who believe, not to those who obey, as you imagine:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal.3:1-3).​

Here we see that the Spirit is received by faith. According to your foolish ideas no one can receive the Spirit except by obeying.

Who can take you seriously except those who agree with you that a person has to do "works" in order to receive the Spirit?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

Yes, Paul speaks of being found in Christ and having the righteouness from God on the basis of "faith." Not faith plus obedience, as you imagine. The following is the gospel of grace which you deny:

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).​

The righteousness which is of God is given to all who believe!

Not to those who believe and obey, as you imagine.

We see over and over that you just refuse to believe the plain teaching of the Scriptures, the Scriptures which contradict your foolish ideas.

 

[God's Truth]

Why are you changing the subject? Again, here is what you said:



Here we see that the Spirit comes to those who believe, not to those who obey, as you imagine:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal.3:1-3).​

Here we see that the Spirit is received by faith. According to your foolish ideas no one can receive the Spirit except by obeying.

Who can take you seriously except those who agree with you that a person has to do "works" in order to receive the Spirit?

Again, Paul is not saying they did not have to obey to receive the Holy Spirit. As I have already explained, the Galatians were trying to do purification works to be right before God INSTEAD of just having faith that Jesus' blood already made them right and purified before God.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, Paul speaks of being found in Christ and having the righteouness from God on the basis of "faith." Not faith plus obedience, as you imagine. The following is the gospel of grace which you deny:

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).​

The righteousness which is of God is given to all who believe!

Not to those who believe and obey, as you imagine.

We see over and over that you just refuse to believe the plain teaching of the Scriptures, the Scriptures which contradict your foolish ideas.

There are some things that THE BIBLE says that you are not holding onto and grasping.

Faith alone is dead.

All the scriptures that say 'believe', it means we have to believe that forgiveness of sins is through Jesus---the sins we REPENT of.

I gave many scriptures that say the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey.

 

[Derf]

Then why did you quote verses which you believe that the sins of Christians will disqualify them for salvation?

Because those verses are in God's word. We can't deal with them by ignoring them. The best understanding I have about them is to say that they mean that while you can't gain salvation by stopping sinning or wanting to stop sinning, even, neither can you lose salvation by restarting sinning.

But the issue seems to be much deeper than mere sinful acts. It seems to me that God really wants us to do the things He thinks are good, and He wants us to think those things are good, too. It takes faith to think that!!! Faith is believing that what God tells us is true. SO if God tells us that we need to believe in Jesus CHrist to have eternal life, we should believe Him and believe in Jesus for eternal life.

If God's apostles then tell us we should not defraud our brothers, and we should not be practicing all those lists of sins Paul gives in his epistles, we should believe that, too, and not practice those things. If we are not willing to forsake those practices, there's should be some question as to whether we are really God's children and fellow heirs, since we are SHOWING that we don't really believe. AND if we don't really believe God, it will not be imputed to us for righteousness, will it? Faith in God is more than just acknowledging that Jesus is the Christ--the demons believe that as well. Faith implies that we act in certain ways, and if we aren't willing to, it's probably because we don't have faith. This is what James was getting at. Paul said it, too, just in a more round-about way.

If it bothers you, don't blame me--talk to the author about it. My guess, though I don't know you personally, is that you are not stealing and murdering and committing adultery, and that if you were to do those things, your conscience and God's Spirit wouldn't let you continue in them. That's applied faith. There's no application of faith that says, "I'll do whatever I want and expect God to save me anyway." Except maybe faith in ourselves.

The whole question, in the immortal words of Humpty Dumpty, is, "which is to be master--that's all." (Lewis Carroll)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Again, Paul is not saying they did not have to obey to receive the Holy Spirit.

He is saying that we receive the Spirit by faith, not by obedience!

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal.3:1-3).​

Not by obedience but by faith! You refuse to believe the things which are clearly revealed in the Bible. You are determined to cling to your "works" because you think that faith is not enough to bring salvation, despite the answer given here by Paul and those with him:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

According to your foolish ideas Paul was wrong because he left out obedience in his answer!

 

[God's Truth]

He is saying that we receive the Spirit by faith, not by obedience!

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal.3:1-3).​

Not by obedience but by faith! You refuse to believe the things which are clearly revealed in the Bible. You are determined to cling to your "works" because you think that faith is not enough to bring salvation, despite the answer given here by Paul and those with him:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

According to your foolish ideas Paul was wrong because he left out obedience in his answer!

The Galatians WERE doing the CEREMONIAL works that the Jews USED to have to do to to justify themselves---they forgot that MERELY having FAITH/BELIEVING that Jesus' blood cleans them IS WHAT CLEANS THEM.

That does NOT mean they didn't have to have living faith---they had to BELIEVE that Jesus' blood cleans us OF THE SINS we REPENT of doing.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If we are not willing to forsake those practices, there's should be some question as to whether we are really God's children and fellow heirs, since we are SHOWING that we don't really believe.

Do you deny that the LORD knows whether or not someone has true faith?

Do you deny that he gives those with true faith eternal life?

Do you deny that the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish?

If you acknowledge all of those things are true then if you will use your common sense then you will realize that those who have been given eternal life will never perish.

 

[God's Truth]

Do you deny that the LORD knows whether or not someone has true faith?

Do you deny that he gives those with true faith eternal life?

Do you deny that the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish?

If you acknowledge all of those things are true then if you will use your common sense then you will realize that those who have been given eternal life will never perish.

What don't you get that true faith IS FAITH with right action/works/obedience.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Galatians WERE doing the CEREMONIAL works that the Jews USED to have to do to to justify themselves---they forgot that MERELY having FAITH/BELIEVING that Jesus' blood cleans them IS WHAT CLEANS THEM.

Again you want to change the subject. Earlier you said:

God only gives His Spirit and understanding to those who obey.

You refuse to believe what Paul said in the following passage where he says that a person receives the Spirit by faith, not as a result of obedience:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal.3:1-3).​

Paul says NOTHING about receiving the spirit as a resuly of one's obedience but you cling to the things which you say which are clearly untrue.

All you demonstrate is the fact that you only believe the things in the Bible that match your ideas and you have no use for any of the Scriptures which contradict your ideas.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What don't you get that true faith IS FAITH with right action/works/obedience.

What you don't get is that saving faith comes first and then obedience follows. When a person believes he is saved:

" And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

You refuse to believe the most basic things revealed in the Bible.

 

[God's Truth]

Again you want to change the subject. Earlier you said:



You refuse to believe what Paul said in the following passage where he says that a person receives the Spirit by faith, not as a result of obedience:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal.3:1-3).​

Paul says NOTHING about receiving the spirit as a resuly of one's obedience but you cling to the things which you say which are clearly untrue.

All you demonstrate is the fact that you only believe the things in the Bible that match your ideas and you have no use for any of the Scriptures which contradict your ideas.

Are you that dense? The Galatians were doing the ceremonial works when faith only in Jesus' blood already made them clean.

Jesus cleans us by BELIEVING his blood cleans us OF THE SINS we REPENT of doing.

 

[God's Truth]

What you don't get is that saving faith comes first and then obedience follows. When a person believes he is saved:

You mean when someone TALKED the person INTO believing he is saved!

What. Don't. You. Get. About. Faith. Alone/Only. IS. DEAD. AND. CANNOT. Save. Anyone?

" And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

You want to debate me but you do not read what I am saying! I have already explained to you that CORNELIUS and his whole HOUSEHOLD were told by an ANGEL to ask for Peter because Cornelius and HIS WHOLE HOUSEHOLD were God fearing and RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE.

The jailor and his family heard the message about sins being forgiven and then they REPENTED, as shown by their getting water baptized!

You refuse to believe the most basic things revealed in the Bible.

We have to have faith/believe that Jesus' blood cleans us of the SINS we REPENT of doing.

 

[Derf]

Do you deny that the LORD knows whether or not someone has true faith?

Do you deny that he gives those with true faith eternal life?

Do you deny that the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish?

If you acknowledge all of those things are true then if you will use your common sense then you will realize that those who have been given eternal life will never perish.

But I'm not saved by my common sense. Are you? In fact, if the sense to be saved is so common, why is it that only a remnant will be saved in Rom 9:27?

Spoiler

“Common sense is what tells us the earth is flat.” ― Stuart Chase, Language in Thought and Action
“Common sense is the most widely shared commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it.” ― René Descartes
“Common sense ain't common.” ― Will Rogers
“Common sense is seeing things as they are; and doing things as they ought to be.” ― Harriet Beecher Stowe
“Never assume the obvious is true.” ― William Safire
“A lot of people think something is right, and so that thing becomes right.” ― Paulo Coelho, Veronika Decides to Die
“We are always trying to convert people to a belief in our own explanation of the universe. We think that the more people there are who believe as we do, the more certain it will be that what we believe is the truth. But it doesn't work that way at all.” ― Paulo Coelho, The Pilgrimage

The problem with your questions is that you are presuming to know by some nebulous assessment (you haven't told me how YOU know someone has true faith) what God says should be assessed by behavior.

If God tells us to assess our faith by our behavior, that either means:

1. He assesses our faith by our behavior
2. He does not assess our faith by our behavior, but He wants us to do so

I don't know which is correct, I'll admit! But in either case, we should assess our faith by our behavior, if He tells us to do so.

Here's another way to think about it:
Calvinists (who ascribe to #1 above) would say that God not only knows our true faith, He knows because He caused it to happen. So, give Calvinists credit--they acknowledge that God can know something that He decided to do.

Arminians would say that God knows our true faith by the end result, which He can look into time and see. What is He seeing? I suppose He is seeing that our true faith in the end results in what He's looking for, which according to Paul, is that we are not murderers, adulterers, disobedient to parents, revilers, etc., etc. In other words, God is assessing our true faith by our future behavior. I'm not sure how this helps, but it still gets back to our behavior.

Open Theism is kind of a new thing for me. But it makes a lot of sense. Open Theists say that God does not either 1. cause our faith to be true (though most would have to admit He helps us believe in some way(s)), or 2. look into the future to know if our faith turns out to be true. So what is left for God to do to determine if our faith is true? Well, I'd propose that our faith is true if we believe that Jesus died for our sins and that we accept that He, being our judge, has already paid our penalty for us. God can look into our hearts to determine if we really believe that. Can God look into our hearts to determine that we will always believe that? I don't know. What is it in our hearts that God can see after our conversion that He can't see before our conversion??? And if He can't see that before our conversion, why not? What changed? How does our conversion give God powers that He didn't already have?

If God can see our true faith before our conversion, then that suggests that we were always saved, doesn't it? Or always planned for salvation, maybe. And if we were always planned for salvation, even before we had even been born, then either all things are locked in (even God can't change the future), which is Arminianism, or God is the only one that can decide anything (God makes the future), which is Calvinism.

Open Theism seems to allow for our ability to either accept or reject God from our own volition, and if that's the case, then we are again left with 2 possibilities for believers.

1. That believers can NEVER stop believing, or
2. That believers CAN stop believing.

If #1 is true, then ok, all things are hunky dory. There will never be unbelievers in the kingdom of God, all granted eternal life actually experience eternal life, and your question is moot. And believers will be willing to do the will of God.

If #2 is true, then we have to deal with those unbelievers that YOU say HAVE eternal life. What happens to them? They are obviously unbelievers because they are not willing to do God's will.

I have a proposal for that. What if God grants eternal life to people but they don't want HIS kind of life (in His kingdom), i.e., don't want to do His will? Well, think about kingdoms on this earth. If a king is really sovereign over his kingdom, he has a few choices on how to deal with those in his kingdom who don't want to do what he says, assuming he can't twiddle with their minds to make them think the way he wants them to think (make them puppets, essentially).

1. Kill them
2. Banish them
3. Punish them until they do what he wants, and if they never do, see #1 and #2

#1 is not possible in our special case, as these people have eternal life--no more death for them.
#3 sounds a lot like purgatory, but eventually the choice loops back to #1 or #2. Since #1 is a non-starter, the only option left is banishment.

What do we usually call banishment from God's kingdom? And how long does it last?