ECT Abraham's Covenant as a Gentile

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Prophesy revealed through the prophets:

Isaiah 60:3 KJV
(3) And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.​


Mystery revealed through Paul:

Romans 11:11 KJV​
(11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.​



Things that differ are not the same.


Because the remnant is not the same as the ethne! Surely you know this. That's why Lk 2:34 says there is both. You are reading the whole race where you are not supposed to. Rom 11:30 says God no longer does, if we didn't already realize.
 

Interplanner

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Prophesy revealed through the prophets:

Isaiah 60:3 KJV
(3) And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.​





Mystery revealed through Paul:

Romans 11:11 KJV​
(11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.​



Things that differ are not the same.




Tam,
how is Rom 11:11 a mystery? This mystery is that Israel is PARTIALLY hard. This is a mystery to Judaism, which thinks in terms of the whole race at a time (as does D'ism and 2P2P, even in the 21st century where the DNA purity is all mixed up!). It is not a mystery to Christians because every group is partially hard. Just as Israel in Rom 9-11 never means the whole group, Gentiles never means all of them either. But having been raised in Judaism (in the launching pad of God's mission) it is natural for Paul to remark that faith is now among Gentiles, because up to the time of Messiah, it was confined within Israel, with very few exceptions. Now (Paul's now) it was clearly being taken by the hand of God (Rom 16) all over the world, (Acts 2:39).

(This is not the same aspect of the mystery of Eph 3:5, but very closely related).
 

SaulToPaul

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Tam,
how is Rom 11:11 a mystery? This mystery is that Israel is PARTIALLY hard. This is a mystery to Judaism, which thinks in terms of the whole race at a time (as does D'ism and 2P2P, even in the 21st century where the DNA purity is all mixed up!). It is not a mystery to Christians because every group is partially hard. Just as Israel in Rom 9-11 never means the whole group, Gentiles never means all of them either. But having been raised in Judaism (in the launching pad of God's mission) it is natural for Paul to remark that faith is now among Gentiles, because up to the time of Messiah, it was confined within Israel, with very few exceptions. Now (Paul's now) it was clearly being taken by the hand of God (Rom 16) all over the world, (Acts 2:39).

(This is not the same aspect of the mystery of Eph 3:5, but very closely related).

:chuckle:

Gentile salvation, in prophecy, is from the rise of Israel...not the fall.
That is this particular mystery.
 

Danoh

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:chuckle:

Gentile salvation, in prophecy, is from the rise of Israel...not the fall.
That is this particular mystery.

No, bro - the mystery in Rom. 9-11 is HOW LONG Unbelieving Israel will be TEMPORARILY hardened in heart.

It is actually an answer to the question...

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

It is what Peter is referring to in 2 Peter 3 as to what became of the Lord's promised return that Peter had preached, say, in Acts 3.

It is what Peter is saying Paul had been given some wisdom on, and that because some found some things difficult to understand, they had ended up distorting things, just as they had the other Scriptures.

Things the Lord had not answered in Acts 1; that He later answered after He ascended on High and then returned to appear to Paul to reveal to, and through him.

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
 

Danoh

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Find prophesy of Gentile nations flocking to the Lord due to the fall of Israel.

DURING not DUE TO.

The Body is not a replacement of Israel.

It is that kind of wording that causes fools like IP to conclude we are asserting the Body was some sort of a last minute and or a Plan B.
 

Tambora

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DURING not DUE TO.

The Body is not a replacement of Israel.

It is that kind of wording that causes fools like IP to conclude we are asserting the Body was some sort of a last minute and or a Plan B.
Yep, that's a better way to say it.
 

Interplanner

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Yep, that's a better way to say it.


Neither last minute nor second-rate would be the problem, though, however, I have seen plenty of last-minute explanations of Acts. The problem is strictly 2 programs, which rapes Eph 4.

btw, is your Christ the one who said to call a person a fool was worse than other 'difference of opinion' identifiers? Hell? Yes.
 

Danoh

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Neither last minute nor second-rate would be the problem, though, however, I have seen plenty of last-minute explanations of Acts. The problem is strictly 2 programs, which rapes Eph 4.

btw, is your Christ the one who said to call a person a fool was worse than other 'difference of opinion' identifiers? Hell? Yes.

Here, bookworm, a pair of bookends with your name on them, and a few books in between.

To those of His brethren who were fools and for the exact same reason the same word applies to you...

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

To fools ever enamored with so called Bible experts like those your heart is ever skipping a beat over...

2 Corinthians 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.

To fools like you who have failed to distinguish between the Law for righteousness and the righteousness of God without the Law...

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

To fools like you and your fool posts and their OPs....

2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

To fools - just like you - who conclude God is through with His Promises to Himself regarding Jacob just because things appear bleak for Israel for a season...

Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
 

SaulToPaul

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No, bro - the mystery in Rom. 9-11 is HOW LONG Unbelieving Israel will be TEMPORARILY hardened in heart.

It is actually an answer to the question...

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

It is what Peter is referring to in 2 Peter 3 as to what became of the Lord's promised return that Peter had preached, say, in Acts 3.

It is what Peter is saying Paul had been given some wisdom on, and that because some found some things difficult to understand, they had ended up distorting things, just as they had the other Scriptures.

Things the Lord had not answered in Acts 1; that He later answered after He ascended on High and then returned to appear to Paul to reveal to, and through him.

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

But rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles.

vs

Isaiah 60
 

Danoh

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But rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles.

vs

Isaiah 60

Joshua 24:17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

Psalms 74:9 We see not our signs: there is no more any prophet: neither is there among us any that knoweth how long.

Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The issue is the very principle that Paul first established in Romans 9.

In Romans 11, Paul AGAIN points out that AT THE SAME TIME that God is ONCE MORE merely doing some things He had Sovereignly planned on doing DURING what is basically just ONE MORE INSTANCE of Israel's VARIOUS and TEMPORARY stumblings - He is using what He is doing DURING this TEMPORARY stumbling ALSO...to ONCE MORE provoke ISRAEL to jealousy THROUGH it.

Romans 9-11 form one unit - ARE one unit.

Meaning no one passage, let alone, a surface level, first impression reading from half a passage...is always a reliable means alone; of arriving at any passage's actually intended sense.

:chuckle: - of course, you have already noted your taking issue with your very practice of pointing out things to others, being practiced towards you.

Your already stated stance, bro; against the practice of Proverbs 27:17 with you; is duly noted :chuckle:
 

Tambora

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Neither last minute nor second-rate would be the problem, though, however, I have seen plenty of last-minute explanations of Acts. The problem is strictly 2 programs, which rapes Eph 4.

btw, is your Christ the one who said to call a person a fool was worse than other 'difference of opinion' identifiers? Hell? Yes.
Still waiting for you to produce the OT prophesy that Gentile nations would flock to the Lord while Israel is in a fallen state rather than an exalted state.
 

Interplanner

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Still waiting for you to produce the OT prophesy that Gentile nations would flock to the Lord while Israel is in a fallen state rather than an exalted state.



What a stupid question Tam. Acts 28:26. rom 10:21. You really know almost nothing about the NT. Nothing will happen to nations now, you know. That's done. Everything is based on and about and through Christ, Rom 11:30.
 

steko

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What a stupid question Tam. Acts 28:26. rom 10:21. You really know almost nothing about the NT. Nothing will happen to nations now, you know. That's done. Everything is based on and about and through Christ, Rom 11:30.

Tam understands so much more than you about the NT and about the Bible as a whole.
You remain ignorant of the mystery, as Paul says, according to your own supposed wisdom in your conceit.
 

Interplanner

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Tam understands so much more than you about the NT and about the Bible as a whole.
You remain ignorant of the mystery, as Paul says, according to your own supposed wisdom in your conceit.


It is quite clear what the mystery is in Eph 3:5-6. The co-inheritance is through the Gospel, through believing it. It is not separate inheritances, and it is not a matter of squishing every believer into the small square miles of Israel, 'through the law.'! Christ is the inheritance.
 

Crucible

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Well, there's Covenant theology- and then there's the heretics who call it 'replacement' whatever- they don't have orthodoxy.
 
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