• This is a new section being rolled out to attract people interested in exploring the origins of the universe and the earth from a biblical perspective. Debate is encouraged and opposing viewpoints are welcome to post but certain rules must be followed. 1. No abusive tagging - if abusive tags are found - they will be deleted and disabled by the Admin team 2. No calling the biblical accounts a fable - fairy tale ect. This is a Christian site, so members that participate here must be respectful in their disagreement.

A stupidity of Darwinism: "There was never a time when there were only two humans!"

Caino

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This is called special pleading.

Ignoring evidence in favor of your beliefs is a horrible way to learn about the past.



Because some scientist somewhere says they're that old?

Because the evidence says otherwise:




This is called begging the question. You are assuming that your position is correct in order to establish your position.



Well, no, science has confirmed most of the Bible.



I'll let RD handle this assertion.



Well, no, God wrote the Bible using about 40 men as His pens.



Sorry, but no. The Bible was written over a period of about 1600 years or so. Those "church men" don't exist.



No such thing.



Considering that the Bible is, in fact, God's word, doubting His word is, in essence, by definition, a lack of faith in God.



You're really pushing it here. Back off of the anti-semitic remarks. This is your only warning.

In addition, the Jews weren't the only people who killed Jesus. The Gentiles are also guilty (Pilate).



In what way is it exaggerated?



And you're better than them?
To me the Jewish people are just normal people. They are no better and no worse than any other of Gods children on earth.

I don’t trust the books that the priestly elite wrote about themselves. Obviously exaggerated for an Israelite audience after the destruction of the first Temple and again in bondage.

Proud men lie. It’s difficult for me to understand why anyone would trust the history books written by the kind of people who killed Christ.
 

Hilltrot

Active member
To me the Jewish people are just normal people. They are no better and no worse than any other of Gods children on earth.

I don’t trust the books that the priestly elite wrote about themselves. Obviously exaggerated for an Israelite audience after the destruction of the first Temple and again in bondage.

Proud men lie. It’s difficult for me to understand why anyone would trust the history books written by the kind of people who killed Christ.
Are you a Marcionite or some variation of one?
 

Hilltrot

Active member
Radiometric dating is verifiable in the real world of facts.
Yes and no.

Carbon dating is based on tree rings because the amount of Carbon-14 in the atmosphere changes. So, when one goes past the tree rings ~5000 years, one is extrapolating. Extrapolating to 100,000 years is simply guessing.

Other radiometric dating also makes assumptions about the creation of the Earth and the origins of the universe, none of which are verifiable.

So radiometric dating has decent accuracy through recorded history, but outside of that, it's just guessing which is unverifiable.
 

Hilltrot

Active member
I don’t trust the books that the priestly elite wrote about themselves. Obviously exaggerated for an Israelite audience after the destruction of the first Temple and again in bondage.

Proud men lie. It’s difficult for me to understand why anyone would trust the history books written by the kind of people who killed Christ.
Have you read the Old Testament?

I think you're mistaking the Old Testament writer with Biden Supporters, aka the mainstream media. I suggest comparing the two.
 

Caino

Well-known member
Have you read the Old Testament?

I think you're mistaking the Old Testament writer with Biden Supporters, aka the mainstream media. I suggest comparing the two.
Yes, I’ve read the OT. It’s clear why Jesus said not to sew the new cloth onto the old.
 

Caino

Well-known member
Yes and no.

Carbon dating is based on tree rings because the amount of Carbon-14 in the atmosphere changes. So, when one goes past the tree rings ~5000 years, one is extrapolating. Extrapolating to 100,000 years is simply guessing.

Other radiometric dating also makes assumptions about the creation of the Earth and the origins of the universe, none of which are verifiable.

So radiometric dating has decent accuracy through recorded history, but outside of that, it's just guessing which is unverifiable.
Radiometric dating isn’t carbon dating.

The earth and the layers of evolved life concealed within it don’t look anything like the Israelites creation story.

God wasn’t wrong when he created life via evolution, the Israelites were wrong when they invented a story of origins by appropriating Mesopotamian lore.
 

Caino

Well-known member
Are you a Marcionite or some variation of one?
No, I believe some of the OT is true but redacted and exaggerated. The secular history books mentioned in the scripture conveniently vanished.

Paul was sincere but brought his own speculation to the after cross movement.
There was an original gospel for which Jesus was rejected and killed. That gospel changed after Jesus left.
 
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Hilltrot

Active member
Yes, I’ve read the OT. It’s clear why Jesus said not to sew the new cloth onto the old.
Well, you've proven that you haven't read either one.

Jesus was responding to the disciples of John the Baptist who asked why his disciples weren't ritually fasting like they were. Jesus was saying nothing about the Old Testament in that passage and the Old Testament does not in any way encourage the ritual fasting that they were doing. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I suggest you reread the Bible and be open to what it might be saying.
 

Hilltrot

Active member
Radiometric dating isn’t carbon dating.
Awesome! Why don't you update Wikipedia while you are at it.


Remember, you'll actually have to use a source - they won't take your word for it.

The earth and the layers of evolved life concealed within it don’t look anything like the Israelites creation story.

So, there are no animals, no water, no fish, no birds, no land, and no humans in the Earth around us . . . Has Elon Musk successfully sent you to Mars without anyone knowing it?

God wasn’t wrong when he created life via evolution, the Israelites were wrong when they invented a story of origins by appropriating Mesopotamian lore.

So, you're telling God how he created everything and you think Israelites exaggerated their importance?

You and many others on this forum have completely missed the point of the first chapters of Genesis. The chapters are not about the Earth - they are about God.
 

JudgeRightly

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I don’t trust the books that the priestly elite wrote about themselves. Obviously exaggerated

Again, exaggerated how?

You didn't answer the first time I asked.

for an Israelite audience after the destruction of the first Temple and again in bondage.

Proud men lie.

This is true. We see this throughout history, where the greatest rulers of history rewrote their conquests in the best light possible, making themselves out to be greater than they were.

However, this is not the case with the history provided by the Israelites. In fact, it's almost the complete opposite, they were the most wicked of nations, and the Bible tells their story not presenting them as good people, but utterly depraved and wicked, and tells of their defeats at the hands of foreign nations because of their wickedness and rebellion towards God.

It’s difficult for me to understand why anyone would trust the history books written by the kind of people who killed Christ.

Because of what I just said.

The history they present is not that of a proud (in the good sense) nation, full of false descriptions of exaggeratedly great rulers who conquered the world, but of a nation that ultimately rejected their own God and went their own way, and was ultimately divided like clothes at a lottery.

It has the flavor of realism that most history books hardly ever achieve.
 

Caino

Well-known member
Awesome! Why don't you update Wikipedia while you are at it.


Remember, you'll actually have to use a source - they won't take your word for it.



So, there are no animals, no water, no fish, no birds, no land, and no humans in the Earth around us . . . Has Elon Musk successfully sent you to Mars without anyone knowing it?



So, you're telling God how he created everything and you think Israelites exaggerated their importance?

You and many others on this forum have completely missed the point of the first chapters of Genesis. The chapters are not about the Earth - they are about God.
When the error of Genesis became obvious, book worshipers had to retreat between the lines for imaginary meaning.
 

Caino

Well-known member
Again, exaggerated how?

You didn't answer the first time I asked.



This is true. We see this throughout history, where the greatest rulers of history rewrote their conquests in the best light possible, making themselves out to be greater than they were.

However, this is not the case with the history provided by the Israelites. In fact, it's almost the complete opposite, they were the most wicked of nations, and the Bible tells their story not presenting them as good people, but utterly depraved and wicked, and tells of their defeats at the hands of foreign nations because of their wickedness and rebellion towards God.



Because of what I just said.

The history they present is not that of a proud (in the good sense) nation, full of false descriptions of exaggeratedly great rulers who conquered the world, but of a nation that ultimately rejected their own God and went their own way, and was ultimately divided like clothes at a lottery.

It has the flavor of realism that most history books hardly ever achieve.
Exaggerations such as the spectacular narratives regarding the Israelites dealing as slaves with Pharaoh, the parting sea, Gods etching tablets with a finger only to have them smashed, the localized flood legend expanded to cover the entire earth simply because the Israelite priest in Babylon were unable to trace their arrogant blood lines back to Adam whom they just "assumed" was the first human on earth. So, they drown the earth in its own wickedness.

Yes "the most wicked of nations" capable of converting an ordinary secular history into a miraculous fiction where they remain marooned today hoping for a Jewish Messiah.

After the fall of the first Temple and the loss of their nation, the scattered, depressed Israelite wanted answers from religious leadership!!! What they got was a spectacular story of origins to buttress their flagging faith. In those days wimpy snowflake stories of hope and faith just didn't capture the heart and loyalty of the subjects.

Each time the scripture books were redacted or the same stories retold, parts changed.
 

JudgeRightly

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Exaggerations such as the spectacular narratives regarding the Israelites dealing as slaves with Pharaoh, the parting sea,

I'm guessing you're not aware of Ipuwer, nor of all the evidence for the exodus of Israel from Egypt that corroborates the Bible's narrative.

Gods etching tablets with a finger only to have them smashed,

Why would this be an exaggeration?

the localized flood legend expanded to cover the entire earth

This is called begging the question.

The Bible says plainly that the waters rose high above the earth and that, except for the humans and creatures on the ark, everything and everyone else died.

Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth.The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters.And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered.And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days. - Genesis 7:17-24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis7:17-24&version=NKJV

simply because the Israelite priest in Babylon were unable to trace their arrogant blood lines back to Adam whom they just "assumed" was the first human on earth.

This will be the last part of your post I reply to.

Considering that Moses got his information from God Himself, and God does not lie, why would Moses have to change the story?

Also... Unable to trace? You realize there's a geneology going all the way back to Adam from Noah, right?

So, they drown the earth in its own wickedness.

Yes "the most wicked of nations" capable of converting an ordinary secular history into a miraculous fiction where they remain marooned today hoping for a Jewish Messiah.

After the fall of the first Temple and the loss of their nation, the scattered, depressed Israelite wanted answers from religious leadership!!! What they got was a spectacular story of origins to buttress their flagging faith. In those days wimpy snowflake stories of hope and faith just didn't capture the heart and loyalty of the subjects.

Each time the scripture books were redacted or the same stories retold, parts changed.

The rest of your post isn't worth responding to.
 
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Caino

Well-known member
I'm guessing you're not aware of Ipuwer, nor of all the evidence for the exodus of Israel from Egypt that corroborates the Bible's narrative.



Why would this be an exaggeration?



This is called begging the question.

The Bible says plainly that the waters rose high above the earth and that, except for the humans and creatures on the ark, everything and everyone else died.

Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth.The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters.And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered.And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days. - Genesis 7:17-24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis7:17-24&version=NKJV



This will be the last part of your post I reply to.

Considering that Moses got his information from God Himself, and God does not lie, why would Moses have to change the story?

Also... Unable to trace? You realize there's a geneology going all the way back to Adam from Noah, right?



The rest of your post isn't worth responding to.
Moses predates the finalized books of Babylon by 1,000+ years. Whatever he wrote originally didn’t survive in the language he used. The nationalist, religious pride that rejected the Son could easily rework old stories in order to elevate their God over all others in the region.

The OT was written by Israelites for an Israelite audiences not Gentiles. The false prophets should be taken with a grain of salt. Putting the new wine into the old wine skins has confused and mislead people regarding an accurate history of the earth,
 

Right Divider

Body part
To me the Jewish people are just normal people. They are no better and no worse than any other of Gods children on earth.
Even God says that in the Bible that you despise. They were not better than anyone else. What MADE them special is that God CHOSE them.
I don’t trust the books that the priestly elite wrote about themselves. Obviously exaggerated for an Israelite audience after the destruction of the first Temple and again in bondage.
Oh, your silly opinion again and again. Jesus revered the Bible that you despise. Jesus quoted from it many, many times and NEVER said that there was anything wrong with it,
Proud men lie.
Yes, you sure do.
It’s difficult for me to understand why anyone would trust the history books written by the kind of people who killed Christ.
And YET Christ Himself trusted those history books.
Mat 5:17-18 KJV Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Radiometric dating isn’t carbon dating.
No, but carbon dating is one form of radiometric dating.
The earth and the layers of evolved life concealed within it don’t look anything like the Israelites creation story.
Sheer silly opinion.
God wasn’t wrong when he created life via evolution, the Israelites were wrong when they invented a story of origins by appropriating Mesopotamian lore.
Hilarious, you are.
 

Caino

Well-known member
Even God says that in the Bible that you despise. They were not better than anyone else. What MADE them special is that God CHOSE them.

Oh, your silly opinion again and again. Jesus revered the Bible that you despise. Jesus quoted from it many, many times and NEVER said that there was anything wrong with it,

Yes, you sure do.

And YET Christ Himself trusted those history books.
Jesus knew that the scriptures were written by imperfect men and were terribly distorted.
 

JudgeRightly

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Moses predates the finalized books of Babylon by 1,000+ years.

Books of Babylon? What are those?

Whatever he wrote originally didn’t survive in the language he used.

No one has argued that the original manuscripts of the scriptures have survived. They are, in fact, lost to time.

The nationalist, religious pride that rejected the Son could easily rework old stories in order to elevate their God over all others in the region.

What makes you think that they did rewrite it?

And if they had, why did they not put themselves in a better light? That's typically what people do when they rewrite history in their favor.

Yet Israel is still, to this very day, as being a failure of a nation.

The OT was written by Israelites for an Israelite audiences not Gentiles.

So what?

The false prophets should be taken with a grain of salt.

And which false prophets are those?

Putting the new wine into the old wine skins has confused and mislead people regarding an accurate history of the earth,

You still have yet to substantiate your assertion that the Bible is inaccurate regarding the history of the earth.

Jesus knew that the scriptures were written by imperfect men

For once we agree. Yet, being the One who inspired them to write what they wrote, He knew that it was accurate, and true.

and were terribly distorted.
Because you say so?
 

Caino

Well-known member
And you know this because ....?
Because he had common sense, and he is a revelation of the Father. Jesus didn’t act like the God of the OT scriptures, a God largely created in the image of the men who wrote the OT books.

Jesus taught a new religion which was different than the OT way of thinking.
 
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