ECT A Preterist Time Chart

Interplanner

Well-known member
The end of 31 does not talk about cataclysm. It simply talks about a gathering of souls.
("souls" is my presumption)
In addition, it does not give a beginning or an end to the process.

The whole verse is a statement that something will happen with a goal in mind and eventual consequences.
"He will send..."

If we read it correctly, it is not necessarily sequentially connected to the other verses in the way verse 29 begins; "Immediately after..
Or even verse 30 which begins; "And then shall..."

It is entirely without a time/sequence anchor.





I think that there are parts of the rest of the chapter that revisit the Judean 1st century dilemmas: certainly the flood analogy, because Dan 9 refers to such a comparison.

(To all interested in the AofD: this is the 2nd reason why I don't bother with Dan 11 or 12 about the AofD. #1 is the expression starts as the rebellion that desolates in ch 8; #2 only Dan 9 has the flood comparison, picked up by Jesus.)

And the destruction of Jerusalem is locked into time by Lk 23's 'babes-who-become-adults' and see it.

I just happen to notice, though, that 'right after' the DofJ, the setting is universe wide.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
For the same reason, the idea that there are events is imagined and has caught on. If you were talking about this world, as many, many have, you might imagine events happening to Israel and wars etc, but we are talking about another world where God is the light and the Lamb is the temple. What is your source of material?

Huh?

:kookoo:
 

Danoh

New member
Stating something as if it were a fact does not make it a fact.



You will need to be much more specific.
I am familiar with all of those passages and just read them again to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Like I said to a waitress today at a restaurant I had never visited; "Pretend I have never been here before; what is good?".

While merely asserting a thing is so, does not necessarily make it so, at the same time, merely asserting it is so, does not necessarily make it not so, either - this very statement itself, is a case in point.

In the latter half Matt. 10, He speaks of the persecution they and their converts will have to endure, and that they must endure unto the end for their salvation or deliverance from it's trying, through said trying, James 1; and not to worry about their words, for He will send the Spirit, and that they will not make it past the cities of Israel with their message before the Son of Man be come.

Near about the middle of Luke 21, he basically repeats all that, adds to it His description of it all as "these be the days of vengeance" - He also informs them that all that will be signs signaling them to "look up, for your" (their) redemption draweth nigh" - or after, said outpouring of His wrath.

In the latter half of Romans 9, He later relates through the Apostle Paul, that said pending wrath had been delayed by God, both in His longsuffering, and towards fulfilling first, another aspect of His purpose, just as He had done in Hosea's day.

In 2 Peter 3, Peter mentions this same delay in His wrath in His longsuffering, and even notes that Paul had "also written" about it.

And Peter was not talking about 70AD.

Anyway, feel free to point out what holes in all this that your particular context might influence your perception to see - I can only be enriched by it, in one way, or another.

Because Proverbs 27:17, and that, when viewed in light of Romans 5:8 :)

Note:

Acts 10 took place after Romans 9's temporary delay in His wrath.
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
While merely asserting a thing is so, does not necessarily make it so, at the same time, merely asserting it is so, does not necessarily make it not so, either - this very statement itself, is a case in point.

In the latter half Matt. 10, He speaks of the persecution they and their converts will have to endure, and that they must endure unto the end for their salvation or deliverance from it's trying, through said trying, James 1; and not to worry about their words, for He will send the Spirit, and that they will not make it past the cities of Israel with their message before the Son of Man be come.

Near about the middle of Luke 21, he basically repeats all that, adds to it His description of it all as "these be the days of vengeance" - He also informs them that all that will be signs signaling them to "look up, for your" (their) redemption draweth nigh" - or after, said outpouring of His wrath.

In the latter half of Romans 9, He later relates through the Apostle Paul, that said pending wrath had been delayed by God, both in His longsuffering, and towards fulfilling first, another aspect of His purpose, just as He had done in Hosea's day.

In 2 Peter 3, Peter mentions this same delay in His wrath in His longsuffering, and even notes that Paul had "also written" about it.

And Peter was not talking about 70AD.

Anyway, feel free to point out what holes in all this that your particular context might influence your perception to see - I can only be enriched by it, in one way, or another.

Because Proverbs 27:17, and that, when viewed in light of Romans 5:8 :)

Note:

Acts 10 took place after Romans 9's temporary delay in His wrath.

Thanks for the explanation.
Blessings!
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
I read Danoh on Rom 9. I'm not sure how he moves so quickly from historical cases to Paul's present in v22, but it may be that v22 explains why the destruction of that generation waited a generation. It was however already decided to be in Lk 23's babes-to-adults.

Regardless, there is further proof here that while there is a termination objects of wrath in Israel, some believed, and enjoy his mercy, as he says in 11:30, where races/nations no longer matter, only whether the person is in Christ. And therefore further proof that the following 4 OT quotes are not intra-Israel.

Peter may not have been talking about the DofJ, but he wasn't ignoring it either.

Do you think the skeptic question came from non-Jewish people?
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
I read Danoh on Rom 9. I'm not sure how he moves so quickly from historical cases to Paul's present in v22, but it may be that v22 explains why the destruction of that generation waited a generation. It was however already decided to be in Lk 23's babes-to-adults.

Regardless, there is further proof here that while there is a termination objects of wrath in Israel, some believed, and enjoy his mercy, as he says in 11:30, where races/nations no longer matter, only whether the person is in Christ. And therefore further proof that the following 4 OT quotes are not intra-Israel.

Peter may not have been talking about the DofJ, but he wasn't ignoring it either.

Do you think the skeptic question came from non-Jewish people?

If by the skeptic question you mean the "Where is the promise of his coming?" in 2 Pet 3, I think that Peter understood that both Jews and Gentiles were under the same redemptive umbrella and needed to come to Christ, in faith, and believe that He is the Son of God. To that extent, it doesn't matter who those unbelievers were who were challenging Christ's authority. I tend to think it may have been some who followed Christ to begin with but were disillusioned when things didn't pan out the way they expected.

What does matter is that Peter was echoing what Jesus said in Matt 24 about the world continuing in the same way it always was until sudden destruction comes. He, as did Jesus, compares the flood of Noah to what will happen by fire when God's patience runs out. There is nothing left to do. Christ fulfilled it all. According to most complicated end times scenarios, the world can't end in fire until a series of physical events take place that span more than a thousand years.

But that's not Peter's opinion, or Jesus' opinion. They both state that the world will go merrily along until destruction comes upon them suddenly, just like Noah's flood.
 

Danoh

New member
I read Danoh on Rom 9. I'm not sure how he moves so quickly from historical cases to Paul's present in v22, but it may be that v22 explains why the destruction of that generation waited a generation. It was however already decided to be in Lk 23's babes-to-adults.

Regardless, there is further proof here that while there is a termination objects of wrath in Israel, some believed, and enjoy his mercy, as he says in 11:30, where races/nations no longer matter, only whether the person is in Christ. And therefore further proof that the following 4 OT quotes are not intra-Israel.

Peter may not have been talking about the DofJ, but he wasn't ignoring it either.

Do you think the skeptic question came from non-Jewish people?

"Luke 23's babes-to-adults" was conditional - the early part of Acts makes that clear the Father had allowed the Cross to turn the Cross' verdict of murder, not only to manslaughter, but with the offer of a pardon of said "know not what they do."

70AD had been His wrath through His abscence.

For, with Israel's fall, or their having been concluded having filled up the measure of their forefathers' rebellion again The LORD and His Christ, Israel was now no better off in it's rebellion, as far as God's intervening on their behalf was now concerned, as the Gentiles were (Romans 1:18-3:20).

70AD was His wrath in His having stepped aside to allow Israel to continue down a course that would find their greatest enemy: the Mighty Roman Empire do with as it pleased with them - absent of His intervention.

Even your Matthew 24B is a sorting out of sorts on your end - an admission even within your schematic, of a delay of some sort in the sum up of the full of God's wrath.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
70AD was His wrath in His having stepped aside to allow Israel to continue down a course that would find their greatest enemy: the Mighty Roman Empire do with as it pleased with them - absent of His intervention.

Even your Matthew 24B is a sorting out of sorts on your end - an admission even within your schematic, of a delay of some sort in the sum up of the full of God's wrath.


:up:


70ad was prophesied- God allows Jerusalem to be destroyed
2nd coming was prophesied- God defends Jerusalem
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
GeorgeA wrote:
According to most complicated end times scenarios, the world can't end in fire until a series of physical events take place that span more than a thousand years.

But that's not Peter's opinion, or Jesus' opinion. They both state that the world will go merrily along until destruction comes upon them suddenly, just like Noah's flood.





Exactly. I don't know why people with complicated eschatology can never seem to see this.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
GeorgeA wrote:
According to most complicated end times scenarios, the world can't end in fire until a series of physical events take place that span more than a thousand years.

But that's not Peter's opinion, or Jesus' opinion. They both state that the world will go merrily along until destruction comes upon them suddenly, just like Noah's flood.





Exactly. I don't know why people with complicated eschatology can never seem to see this.

Who's eschatology is complicated?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Danoh wrote:
And Peter was not talking about 70AD.



Ahh, but there are many times when 'gea' just means Israel though it is translated as earth. However, in full 2 Pet 3 context, these are people who deny not only creation but also the cataclysm, and 'gea' is contrasted with 'ouranoi'.

It was the end of the world that was delayed, and Peter was providing an explanation, the same as found in Mt 24 (only the Father) and Mk 13 (the 4 options parable).

It is another indication, like almost everywhere in the NT, that the end judgement was expected right after the trauma in Judea in that generation.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
My eschatology is in perfect accord with the feast days of Israel.


Spring- LORD's first coming

1 Passover
2 Unleavened Bread
3 First Fruits
4 Pentecost


Fall-LORD's second coming

5 Trumpets
6 Day of Atonement
7 Tabernacles


This is quite simple & logical isn't it?





No, this is not in Hebrews, so I think it is irrelevant. Is all your escahtology based on stuff that is not actually said in Scripture?

The day of atonement was in Christ's gospel. You blew that one.
"He dwelt among us" is 'skeino'--to tabernacle, Jn 1. He "tabernacled" among us, in the Gospel. You blew that one.

Where are 100 events that "have to happen"? In the trumpets? That's all that's left.

I can see where the trumpets is the only thing left, but I'm not interested because we are here to boast or preach the cross of Christ. As in 'the trumpet shall sound' or 'at the last trumpet.'

The question of Affleck was: how can people with elaborate 100 part eschatologies not see that the NT spends no time on those 100 parts in its main didactic passages about the 2nd coming?
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Ahh, but there are many times when 'gea' just means Israel though it is translated as earth. However, in full 2 Pet 3 context, these are people who deny not only creation but also the cataclysm, and 'gea' is contrasted with 'ouranoi'.

.

There is no 'gea' in NT Greek.
'gea' is the mythological personification of the Greek 'ge', in other words 'Mother Earth'.

'ge', pronounced 'ghay' is the Greek word which is translated 'land' or 'earth' in the NT writings.
 
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