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1 Tim 3 FF KJV, is not about the Lord Jesus Christ-it describes the church, which is his body, in this dispensation.
Take it away, Mayor...
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1 Tim 3 FF KJV, is not about the Lord Jesus Christ-it describes the church, which is his body, in this dispensation.
Take it away, Mayor...
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
We know the reason is to fill up the heavens via the dispensation of the grace of God, I cannot imagine what kind of reasons that IP can cook up other than "mercy".
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
As doll face would say - Yeppers.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
No, that is you reading into john w's post.
Yep :chuckle:
Interplanner
Well-known member
Please explain further. it is interesting that you would go to v34 (but why not 35?) because the next is the one saying the Son (thank you Danoh!) did not know when that would happen, that the Father would decide.
I find it quite clear that up to v29 is 1st century Judea without a doubt; then 29 says 'right after (the preceding) and goes on to worldwide, end of the world, judgement. End of the universe actually. Heaven and earth will pass away. Like Rev 20:11. No time for a kingdom in Israel in any of this. The NHNE are immediately after that judgement, of course.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Either you don't think at all about what you are saying, or you don't know God.
The only answer we have is 2 Peter 3's 'delay for salvation' v9.
Some of you need to get rid of all the internetcrap and D'istcrap, stop posting for a year, while you learn how the NT uses the OT and then it would be worthwhile here.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Made up.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
The delay? Peter said go to Paul.
2 Peter
3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you
Paul explained the purpose of the delay, the dispensation of the grace of God, the Body of Christ, the filling up of the heavens, all planned before the foundation of the world.
Put down your commentaries, study and believe the Bible.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
I see 34 as the time text. The disciples, out of ignorance, asked Jesus 2 (possibly 3) questions. This verse begins the division between His answers about what will happen during their lifetime and what will happen when the world/universe ends. Verse 35 begins His answer about the end of the world, time and universe. There is a marked change in the language used as you have pointed out.
I have yet to hear a good reason for not taking verse 34 in its most natural and simple sense; that the generation of the disciples is in view. The only reasons I have heard against it include phrases like; "It is obvious that..." or "...what follows sounds like the end of the world to me." But personal opinion, especially my own, is not good enough. So I look to see if the Bible can interpret it without my opinions getting in the way.
We agree on that. I think that taking it out of the Judean context stretches it beyond the natural meaning.
Here is where we will disagree.
I don't fault anyone for thinking verse 29 sounds like the end of the world. On the surface it does. But Isaiah predicted the fall of Babylon at the hands of the Medes with exactly the same language. Is 13:10KJV. Egypt was overthrown by Nebechadnezzar and Ezekiel prophesied it with these words. Eze 32:7KJV. It was well established that these phrases spelled disaster for nations being judged by God.
Identifying Israel as the sun, his wife as the moon, and his progeny as stars goes back to the days of Joseph and his dream about his family. I think Jesus was simply using the words of the prophets to predict "lights out" for the nation of Israel. We know that happened in 70 A.D.
When we add to this the biting words of Jesus in chapter 23 and His pronouncement of desolation coming upon the house of Israel (Jacob), I don't have any problem understanding verse 29 in a historical context.
"Heaven and earth will pass away" is, in my view, Jesus declaring the world will, at some point end, and introducing His explanation of how that event will unfold in stark contrast to the nitty gritty of what will happen during their lifetime.
Interplanner
Well-known member
GA wrote:
how that event will unfold in stark contrast to the nitty gritty of what will happen during their lifetime.
What is the stark contrast? That it is not about events in Judea but about angels collecting believers from across the universe?
Thanks for so many reasoned and reasonable explanations instead of the usual that is served up here!
how that event will unfold in stark contrast to the nitty gritty of what will happen during their lifetime.
What is the stark contrast? That it is not about events in Judea but about angels collecting believers from across the universe?
Thanks for so many reasoned and reasonable explanations instead of the usual that is served up here!
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
I, too, find George Ben Affleck to be quite reasonable.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
There is a huge difference between the first part of his discourse and the second part isn't there? The beginning is so full of practical details and then it changes to parables and general principles.
Not willing to stake my life on it but I wonder if the angels (messengers) are not first the apostles, then disciples, then converts, then converts of converts, etc. during this church age leading up to His second coming.
Thank you for the compliment. Same back to you. So much of what we see is really just childishness. None of us have arrived at perfection and we should be able to disagree with respect for others' convictions.
For example, I don't see that anything was put on hold, but you do. And I know that you have put a lot of thought into it. Can you explain it a bit more?
Interplanner
Well-known member
I hope I haven't lowered myself!
re the delay
With the destruction of Israel out of the way, but no 'harvest' of all the elect, and no new heavens-new earth, I don't see any other way to summarize it. The Father simply decided not to end the world as planned. I also wonder about 2 Peter: ch 2 is so much like Jude (did a college paper on that), and ch 3 explains that there is to be a delay so that more will come to repentance. Did he wait and write ch 3 after the DofJ or did he already know there would be a delay, and write it before? Or were the scoffers doubting the Messiah--doubting that Jesus was Christ-- because he did not orchestrate and execute a deliverance from foreign powers? I'm not inclined that way because he compares the doubted coming to the cataclysm of Noah, which also completely changed the world as they knew it.
Lattourrette p44 (I think) says that once 72AD went by and there was no 2nd coming, the apostles simply carried on with the mission of proclaiming but had no set beliefs about the 2nd coming's timing; only that it was to be the judgement of the world. I'm short on ECF comments on Pompeii, but I can see one of them saying or asking 'Is it starting?'
re the delay
With the destruction of Israel out of the way, but no 'harvest' of all the elect, and no new heavens-new earth, I don't see any other way to summarize it. The Father simply decided not to end the world as planned. I also wonder about 2 Peter: ch 2 is so much like Jude (did a college paper on that), and ch 3 explains that there is to be a delay so that more will come to repentance. Did he wait and write ch 3 after the DofJ or did he already know there would be a delay, and write it before? Or were the scoffers doubting the Messiah--doubting that Jesus was Christ-- because he did not orchestrate and execute a deliverance from foreign powers? I'm not inclined that way because he compares the doubted coming to the cataclysm of Noah, which also completely changed the world as they knew it.
Lattourrette p44 (I think) says that once 72AD went by and there was no 2nd coming, the apostles simply carried on with the mission of proclaiming but had no set beliefs about the 2nd coming's timing; only that it was to be the judgement of the world. I'm short on ECF comments on Pompeii, but I can see one of them saying or asking 'Is it starting?'
Interplanner
Well-known member
If heaven and earth will pass away (Mt24B), and will perish, Heb 1:11-12, how does Israel get a restoration forever, unless it is on the NHNE?
If those who do not obey Messiah are extirpated (disinherited), Acts 3, how do they inherit Israel's promises?
If those who do not obey Messiah are extirpated (disinherited), Acts 3, how do they inherit Israel's promises?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Commentaries to the rescue...
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Is there anything too hard for the LORD?