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Absolutely...Who goes to the throne and takes the scroll from the one sitting on the throne. Revelation 5:7 KJV — And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Thus, the Lamb is not the one sitting on the throne, even if He is one with the one sitting on...

I don't think the elders in any way represent the Godhead. But they are sitting around the great throne, on which sits the Father, who is called "Who is, and who was, and who is to come."

Yes, I agree. But the question was about whether the three persons of the trinity were in view. It seems to me that the writer of Revelation would maintain some separation between the three, and he does, I think.

I was wondering if it meant who is to come to earth. If a Hebrewism just emphasizing that the grace is from Jesus, then vs 8 associates Him clearly with the term "the Almighty". That's not an unusual position, as the translation of the KJV I got the following from had it in red letters...

Maybe I misunderstood when you gave me a definition of "hope", here: I can see that you are saying the same thing I am, but then I don't understand why you posted it in response to mine. Of course our hope is in what God has said, but not looking forward to something that has already come to pass.

Right. So we're talking about the wrath of God or God's judgment on judgment day. Both of these are future events/times. That's why it's a "hope".

Exactly! That was my point. "Are saved" from what? But the fulfillment isn't fulfilled yet. It's still a promise, and we still hope it will be fulfilled, according to Paul.

You don't "expect" something that has already come to pass. If I've already had my breakfast, I'm not in some kind of expectation that I will get to have breakfast today. I don't need to have "confidence" that breakfast will happen when it has already happened. "Promises" are about something...

Our salvation is not achieved yet either: 1 Thessalonians 5:8 KJV — But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 1 Corinthians 15:19 KJV — If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most...

I typed that wrong, or my phone corrected it wrong. My intent was to keep the conversation about the past, to deal with what you were saying. So when you said that grace added to law equals law, aren't you saying the Jews of James' time were saved by the law?

Why is that in conflict with what I said you were saying? James was writing to Jews, according to you. James was writing to those following the "kingdom gospel", according to you. James was not writing in the past with respect to the kingdom gospel Jews, since he was a kingdom gospel Jew...

You think the Jews are saved by the law, since James talked about grace being added to the law, right?

True. So why do you think James would be preaching a false gospel?

As far as we know, Lazarus died again after Jesus raised him from the dead.

You would agree, though, that if the Holy Spirit transforms us by the renewing of our minds, it's a supernatural event, right? Indeed, anything the Spirit does is supernatural, isn't it?

I've been to places like that.

Hey Gary, good to hear from you. Sorry about the laptop. Please don't feel bad about being passionate for your view of something, just turn that passion into rational arguments, and follow up with scripture. I don't remember where we were with the Jesus/Judas conversation. If you can find it...

I agree with both of you...the miracle topic is interesting, and it should be a different thread.

Or at least identifiable. Whether anyone notices or not, we still should put faith into practice.