On the omniscience of God

Clete

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I find open theism strange , like the word of faith movement
If you can refute a single syllable of it, I'd hear it gladly.

You won't even make an attempt! You want to pretend like you're smart enough to use terms like "ad hominem," but every time you do, all you accomplish is proving that you don't even know what the term means or how it's properly used.

Worse than that, you never correct yourself. You just keep right on, blithely accepting whatever idiotic nonsense you've been taught to say by whatever idiot was taught the same nonsense by the idiots before him. You simply do not care whether what you say and believe makes any sense. And yet you have the gall to show up here and tell me that you find my doctrine strange. I've spent my entire life seriously testing what I believe against the hardest, most well thought-out arguments I can find, while you mindlessly parrot whatever you've been taught.

Why should I, or anyone, care what you think? You don't think! You couldn't think yourself out of a wet paper bag! You go through your life emoting your way through every issue and/or believing whatever the man behind the pulpit tells you to believe, and yet somehow, you, the parroting moron, think you're in a position to tell me that my doctrine is strange. That's literally laughable! Your trust of my doctrine would be reason enough for me to reexamine it!

John 10:34-35 [34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [35] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken)

both want to take verses literally that shouldn't be taken literally
and verses that should be taken literally are dismissed
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
How would you know the difference?

That's yet another question that will never receive an answer!

Why?

Because you don't know the answer and don't care to find out whether such an answer even exists because if it does, you might find out that you've been parroting nonsense just like these "weird" open theists have been telling you!
 
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way 2 go

Well-known member
Your guilt by association fallacy has been duly noted.
I find open theism strange , like the word of faith movement with selective literalism
John 10:34-35 [34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [35] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken)

both want to take verses literally that shouldn't be taken literally
and verses that should be taken literally are dismissed

both are dogmatic with selective literalism

for example
when an open theist holds that God did not know where Adam & Eve were because God said "where are you"
its the same thing as word of faith people with John 10:34 , both are dogmatic with selective literalism


does the open theist dogma twist these following verses , yes just like the word of faith movement with their with selective literalism

(Matthew 10:30) But even the hairs of your head are all numbered
if God knows the intimate detail of everyone's hairs on their heads , he has to know where they are (◔_◔).

(Matthew 12:36) But I say to you that every idle word, whatever men may speak, they shall give account of it in the day of judgment.
this verse is not even possible in open theism with God only having selective knowledge (◔_◔)

in open theism , how does God keep from knowing what he doesn't want to know ?

is this lucky guesses , maybe they will repent says the open theist , it's prophecy? in open theism mans freewill trumps prophecy .
(Revelation 16:9-11) [9] And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory. [10] And the fifth angel poured out his vial on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom became darkened. And they gnawed their tongues from the pain. [11] And they blasphemed the God of Heaven because of their pains and their sores. And they did not repent of their deeds.

(Revelation 4:1) After these things I looked, and behold, a door was opened in Heaven. And the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you what must occur after these things

(Revelation 22:19) And if anyone takes away from the words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book.
 

Derf

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both want to take verses literally that shouldn't be taken literally
and verses that should be taken literally are dismissed
And how would you know which verses are to be taken literally? Is there a guide for that? Can we see the guide you use for determining which verses are to be taken literally and which not?
 

VladtheDestroyer

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I find open theism strange

Does this mean you will be ignoring JR's question:

Does God have a free will?

You also haven't explained by your own standard, how you, w2g, are not giving your own free-will preeminence over God each time you place an order at MacDonalds.

This is a serious question. And it seems like you would have an easy answer for this if you actually live by what you believe.
 

JudgeRightly

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I find open theism strange,

That's nice, but it's not a valid argument against Open Theism.

At best it's your personal opinion.

At worst it's an appeal to ridicule fallacy or an appeal to emotion fallacy.

If you're offering your feeling that Open Theism is "strange" as evidence against it, then you're appealing to emotion rather than actually refuting anything.

And how would you know that your reaction isn't simply the result of having been conditioned to regard anything contrary to your present theology as "strange"?

Your reaction to an argument tells us nothing about whether the argument is true.

like the word of faith movement with selective literalism

Again, the comparison proves nothing.

If you're invoking the Word of Faith movement's bad reputation in order to discredit Open Theism, that's guilt by association.

If instead you're claiming that Open Theists commit the same hermeneutical error, then demonstrate the error.

Simply attaching the label "selective literalism" to our interpretation doesn't establish that we're interpreting anything incorrectly.

And attributing to us interpretations that we have explicitly rejected is a straw man.

does the open theist dogma twist these following verses

Short answer: no.

Do we read them differently than you do?

Clearly.

But the fact that our interpretation differs from yours doesn't establish that ours is therefore wrong.

And you haven't established that your interpretation is correct simply by asserting it.

The hermeneutical principle I've been arguing for is quite simple:

Read the verse for what it says, in the context in which it says it, and allow it to mean what it says unless the context gives us a reason not to.

in open theism , how does God keep from knowing what he doesn't want to know ?

By simply not seeking out the knowledge.

You're still assuming that information somehow forces itself into God's mind merely because He is capable of obtaining it.

Why?

God's ability to know something does not mean that He is compelled to exercise that ability.

God can investigate something without being compelled to investigate everything.

He can direct His attention toward something without being compelled to direct His attention toward everything.

He can obtain information when He chooses to obtain it.

That's exactly the distinction we've already made between God's capacity to know and His exercise of that capacity.

Your question assumes that distinction is impossible, but it doesn't give an argument for why it is impossible.

is this lucky guesses,

No. God is not "guessing."

When God predicts what will happen, He does so based upon what He actually knows about the present circumstances, the people involved, their character, their intentions, and every other relevant fact available to Him.

And sometimes God isn't merely predicting what will happen.

Sometimes He is declaring what He intends to make happen.

Those are two different things.

Where a prophecy concerns what people or nations will do under existing circumstances, Scripture itself teaches that a change in those circumstances can change the announced outcome.

Jeremiah 18:7-10 explicitly says so.

maybe they will repent says the open theist, it's prophecy?

Why do you say that as though Scripture never presents exactly that sort of situation?

In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die and not live. ’ ”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah 38:1&version=NKJV

Hezekiah prayed.

And God responded:

“Go and tell Hezekiah, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will add to your days fifteen years.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah 38:5&version=NKJV

So, did Hezekiah die when God originally said he would?

No.

Was God wrong?

Of course not.

The circumstances changed, and God changed what He was going to do.

Ahab provides another individual example.
God announced judgment against Ahab, but when Ahab humbled himself, God said:

“See how Ahab has humbled himself before Me? Because he has humbled himself before Me, I will not bring the calamity in his days. In the days of his son I will bring the calamity on his house. ”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Kings 21:29&version=NKJV

And, of course, there's Nineveh.

And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jonah 3:4&version=NKJV

Nineveh repented.

And:

Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jonah 3:10&version=NKJV

So the possibility that people might repent and thereby change the announced outcome is not something Open Theists invented.

It's in the Bible.

in open theism mans freewill trumps prophecy.

Yes, generally speaking.

Generally speaking, man's free choices can affect the outcome of a prophecy concerning what men themselves will freely do.

Prophecy is not prewritten history.

Biblical prophecy often fails, in the sense that the announced event does not occur. That does not mean God was wrong. It means the prophecy was conditional, and the relevant circumstances changed.

Jeremiah 18:7-10 states the principle directly:

If God announces judgment against a nation and that nation turns from its evil, God will relent from the judgment He said He would bring.

Likewise, if God announces blessing and that nation turns to evil, He will relent from the good He said He would do.

That's not man's will "trumping" God's will.

That's God Himself declaring that He responds to what men choose to do.

And where God has actually determined that a particular event will happen, He is perfectly capable of bringing it about.

A conditional prophecy and a divine determination are not the same thing.

In other words, prophecy is not necessarily a promise or prewritten history.

Conditional prophecies are not guaranteed to happen if the relevant circumstances change.

Prophecies concerning something God has determined to bring about are another matter.

----

As for the rest of your post, we've already addressed these arguments at length in the "Honest struggles on God's omniscience" thread.

Rather than repeat the entire discussion here, I'll refer you back to the arguments you've already been given:

  • "Selective literalism," Adam's "Where are you?", and your Word of Faith comparison
    Post #278, especially Arguments 6, 9, and 23.
    Post #283.
  • God knowing particular facts, such as the hairs on someone's head, therefore supposedly knowing everything exhaustively
    Post #278, especially Arguments 6, 8, and 23.
    Post #299, especially Argument 24.
  • Matthew 12:36 and every idle word being accounted for
    Post #295.
    Post #299, especially Argument 28.
  • Revelation, prophecy, "they did not repent," and your claim that Open Theism reduces prophecy to lucky guesses
    Post #278, especially Arguments 14-17.
    See also Post #295.
  • Revelation 22:19 and the suggestion that disagreeing with your interpretation amounts to taking away from Revelation
    Post #278, especially Arguments 9 and 14-16.
    Post #283.

If you think one of those answers is wrong, then address the answer.

Simply repeating the same argument, attaching another verse to it, or moving it into another thread doesn't make it a new argument.
 

marke

Well-known member
Been watching a lot of Soteriology101 videos recently, in which Dr. Leighton Flowers consistently shows the errors of Calvinism, and promotes "Provisionism," which teaches that God has provided a way of salvation for mankind. (I definitely recommend listening to his shows on YT.)

But he pokes at the Open Theist camp (in love, of course) saying that he rejects our (as I am an Open Theist, too) view of God's omniscience, which is that God can know all things knowable, but also that God does not know the future. He obviously (because his show isn't really about Open Theism so much as it is Provisionism and attacking Calvinism,

I figured I'd start this thread to discuss what it means for God to be omniscient.
Are there Christians who believe God does not know the future? I believe God knows the future because God is the Beginning and the End. He knows everything because there is no future with Him, only the eternal present.
 

Clete

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I find open theism strange
Which is more strange?...

The Christian that cares about whether their doctrine makes sense and can (and does) make legitimate arguments for their doctrine.

or...

The one who refuses to make any actual argument at all to the point that those he interacts with cannot even tell if he understands the difference between making an accusation vs an argument.
 
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Clete

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Are there Christians who believe God does not know the future? I believe God knows the future because God is the Beginning and the End. He knows everything because there is no future with Him, only the eternal present.
No, you believe it because you were taught it. The bible says precisely nothing about any such concept as "eternal now". That concept is from Greek philosophy. Specifically Plato. You believe it because the idea was imported into Christianity chiefly through the writings of Augustine, whose entire doctrine was designed to rest upon the Classics (i.e. Aristotle and Plato, et al). You then read this doctrine into the text and think you've proven something by quoting a proof text. Revelation 1:8 is as excellent example as there could ever be...

Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”​

Notice that the verse interprets itself, that "Beginning and the End" refers to an unending period of time, not timelessness. More than that, God explicitly states that there is a future with Him (i.e. "is to come"), in direct contradiction to the doctrine that you just used this verse to support!
The fact is that the scripture is consistent throughout, when it speaks of God in relation to time. The idea is that there is an infinite duration of time, not a total lack of it, as you believe and as Aristotle taught.
 
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JudgeRightly

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Are there Christians who believe God does not know the future?

Define what you mean by "God does not know the future."

Do you mean that he knows nothing at all about anything in the future?

Or do you mean that He does not exhaustively know every future free choice as an already settled fact?

Those are two very different claims.

Open Theism does not teach that God knows nothing about the future.

I believe God knows the future because God is the Beginning and the End.

As Clete said above, you believe this because you were taught it by someone, not because the Bible itself teaches it.

He knows everything because there is no future with Him, only the eternal present.

God Himself would tell you otherwise:

Spoiler
  • Genesis 2:1-3
  • Genesis 3:22-24
  • Genesis 8:21
  • Genesis 9:12-15
  • Exodus 2:24
  • Exodus 4:8-9
  • Exodus 13:17
  • Exodus 19:24
  • Leviticus 26:42
  • Numbers 14:27
  • Numbers 22:33
  • Numbers 33:55-56
  • 1 Kings 22:20
  • Psalm 90:2
  • Psalm 105:42
  • Isaiah 5:1-4
  • Isaiah 30:15-16
  • Isaiah 30:18
  • Isaiah 42:14
  • Isaiah 63:8-10
  • Jeremiah 3:7
  • Jeremiah 3:19-20
  • Jeremiah 15:6
  • Jeremiah 18:7-10
  • Jeremiah 26:3
  • Jeremiah 26:4-6
  • Jeremiah 36:3
  • Ezekiel 12:3
  • Ezekiel 18:30-31
  • Ezekiel 33:14-15
  • Hosea 8:5
  • Zephaniah 3:7
  • Zechariah 8:14
  • Matthew 19:28
  • John 5:17
  • John 14:26
  • John 16:7-8
  • John 16:13
  • Acts 1:8
  • Galatians 4:4
  • Hebrews 9:28
  • Hebrews 10:12-13
  • 1 Peter 3:20
  • Revelation 1:4
  • Revelation 1:8
  • Revelation 6:9-10
  • Revelation 8:1
  • Revelation 11:17-18
  • Revelation 16:19
  • Revelation 18:5
  • Revelation 22:2
 
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