Why Did God create the being who He knew would become Satan?

ttruscott

Well-known member
You are merely pushing the problem back, making the more important thing the immaterial person, which removes the need for the bodily sacrifice of Christ and the physical resurrection of Christ.
I don't understand you...

The immaterial person is more important than what??

HOW does becoming an elect or a sinner by our free will before the creation of the physical universe remove the need for the bodily sacrifice of Christ and the physical resurrection of Christ??? It just does not!!

An elect sinner once he is sown (not created) into manind still has to go thru the process of salvation which is totally based upon Christ's bodily death and resurrection!!! And a sinner who was not elect because he rebuked Christ as a liar and false god and refused to allow Him to interfere with his free will decisions would then be eternally stuck in the grip of his sinful delusions...even after seeing the truth of YHWH's Divinity and eternal power by witnessing the creation of the physical universe did not bring the reprobate back from their delusions because they loved sin more:

Rom 1:18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.
...
24Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity for the dishonoring of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise! Amen.
 

Derf

Well-known member
I don't understand you...

The immaterial person is more important than what??

HOW does becoming an elect or a sinner by our free will before the creation of the physical universe remove the need for the bodily sacrifice of Christ and the physical resurrection of Christ??? It just does not!!

An elect sinner once he is sown (not created) into manind still has to go thru the process of salvation which is totally based upon Christ's bodily death and resurrection!!!
Why? How does Christ's bodily death and resurrection fix a problem caused by a person who sinned BEFORE he had a body?this seems like a big disconnection in your view?
And a sinner who was not elect because he rebuked Christ as a liar and false god and refused to allow Him to interfere with his free will decisions would then be eternally stuck in the grip of his sinful delusions...even after seeing the truth of YHWH's Divinity and eternal power by witnessing the creation of the physical universe did not bring the reprobate back from their delusions because they loved sin more:
Right--they loved the sin they committed before they had a body, so the solution shouldn't require a body.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
Why? How does Christ's bodily death and resurrection fix a problem caused by a person who sinned BEFORE he had a body?this seems like a big disconnection in your view?
The person is the spirit / soul - not their body! Some people who die go back / return to Sheol from whence they came: Ps 9:17 The wicked will return to Sheol— Berean Standard Bible or do you think they go bodily back to Sheol?

?Right--they loved the sin they committed before they had a body, so the solution shouldn't require a body.
Who says? For what reason? What then should the solution require??? Come on, don't hold back...

The wages of sin is death - but spirits don't die, not even in hell!! Physical death as not the price of sin or hell is meaningless. Every sinner is sown into mankind, Rev. 12:4-9, so every sinner has a body, Matt 13:36-39, so therefore the elect pre-human sinners are easily covered by the physical death and resurrection of our Lord.

If physicality is meaningful to the consequence of sin why would sinning in the spirit suddenly be so meaningless as to denigrate the meaning of the physical death and resurrection of our Christ?

If the angels are acceptable to GOD as to the elect, 1 Timothy 5:21, and holy, Mark 8:38, why was the physical universe created at all??? Why not go straight to the heavenly marriage? I don't know how physicality enhanced our redemption and sanctification but your objection adds nothing for my faith to coinsider.

For instance, I don't know why the animals were considered less sinful than the serpent in the garden nor how they can be judged for sin with the rest of the world before the flood but these somewhat obscure things have no more to do with PCE theology than your rather sophist style of creating questions bogus to the topic as if they were meaningful...
 

Right Divider

Body part
The person is the spirit / soul - not their body! Some people who die go back / return to Sheol from whence they came: Ps 9:17 The wicked will return to Sheol— Berean Standard Bible or do you think they go bodily back to Sheol?

I think that your translation is flawed, which leads to flawed doctrine.

Ps 9:17 (AKJV/PCE)​
(9:17) The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.​
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
I think that your translation is flawed, which leads to flawed doctrine.

Ps 9:17 (AKJV/PCE)​
(9:17) The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God.​

Gonna push back just a little bit here, not because @ttruscott is right (his interpretation is definitely wrong), but because there's nothing inherently wrong with the translation he used.

Let's look at the context. I've included the relevant verses here:


To the Chief Musician. To the tune of “Death of the Son.” A Psalm of David.
I will praise You, O Lord, with my whole heart;
I will tell of all Your marvelous works.
2 I will be glad and rejoice in You;
I will sing praise to Your name, O Most High.
3 When my enemies turn back,
They shall fall and perish at Your presence.
4 For You have maintained my right and my cause;
You sat on the throne judging in righteousness.
5 You have rebuked the nations,
You have destroyed the wicked;
You have blotted out their name forever and ever.
6 O enemy, destructions are finished forever!
And you have destroyed cities;
Even their memory has perished.
7 But the Lord shall endure forever;
He has prepared His throne for judgment.
8 He shall judge the world in righteousness,
And He shall administer judgment for the peoples in uprightness.
9 The Lord also will be a refuge for the oppressed,
A refuge in times of trouble.
10 And those who know Your name will put their trust in You;
For You, Lord, have not forsaken those who seek You.
11 Sing praises to the Lord, who dwells in Zion!
Declare His deeds among the people.
12 When He avenges blood, He remembers them;
He does not forget the cry of the humble.
13 Have mercy on me, O Lord!
Consider my trouble from those who hate me,
You who lift me up from the gates of death,
14 That I may tell of all Your praise
In the gates of the daughter of Zion.
I will rejoice in Your salvation.
15 The nations have sunk down in the pit which they made;
In the net which they hid, their own foot is caught.
16 The Lord is known by the judgment He executes;
17 The wicked is snared in the work of his own hands.
Meditation. Selah
18 The wicked shall be turned into hell,
And all the nations that forget God.
For the needy shall not always be forgotten;
The expectation of the poor shall not perish forever.
19 Arise, O Lord,
Do not let man prevail;
Let the nations be judged in Your sight.
20 Put them in fear, O Lord,
That the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah​


The Hebrew word here is h7725. As you can see, it is often translated as "return" throughout the Old Testament:

Spoiler
Strong's h7725

- Lexical: שׁוּב
- Transliteration: shub
- Part of Speech: Verb
- Phonetic Spelling: shoob
- Definition: to turn back, return.
- Origin: A primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverbial, again.
- Usage: ((break, build, circumcise, dig, do anything, do evil, feed, lay down, lie down, lodge, make, rejoice, send, take, weep)) X again, (cause to) answer (+ again), X in any case (wise), X at all, averse, bring (again, back, home again), call (to mind), carry again (back), cease, X certainly, come again (back), X consider, + continually, convert, deliver (again), + deny, draw back, fetch home again, X fro, get (oneself) (back) again, X give (again), go again (back, home), (go) out, hinder, let, (see) more, X needs, be past, X pay, pervert, pull in again, put (again, up again), recall, recompense, recover, refresh, relieve, render (again), requite, rescue, restore, retrieve, (cause to, make to) return, reverse, reward, + say nay, send back, set again, slide back, still, X surely, take back (off), (cause to, make to) turn (again, self again, away, back, back again, backward, from, off), withdraw.
- Translated as (count): Return (59), and returned (42), and return (27), shall return (18), returned (13), And he returned (11), So returned (11), turn (11), to return (10), again (9), and they returned (9), and Turn (9), And again (8), He shall return (8), I will turn away its (8), you return (7), and came back (6), I will return (6), is turned away (6), restore (6), to bring back (6), will return (6), and come back (5), and shall return (5), I will bring back (5), that returned (5), turn away (5), you have returned (5), and brought back (4), and I will bring back (4), and I will bring them back (4), and I will return (4), And turned (4), and turned back (4), and went back (4), and will return (4), bring back (4), go back (4), they shall return (4), Turn back (4), you turn (4), and bring back (3), and bring them back (3), and cause to return (3), and I will turn (3), and they return (3), and turn away (3), and who returned (3), back (3), he does turn (3), I will cause to return (3), may return (3), render (3), Repent (3), Restore us (3), restored (3), So he returned (3), So turned back (3), surely (3), that may turn away (3), to restore (3), to turn (3), to turn away (3), turn again (3), turned (3), turns away (3), when brings back (3), when I return (3), will bring back (3), will restore (3), will turn (3), and answered (2), and bringing (2), and go back (2), and how should we (2), and I brought back (2), And I turned (2), and I will bring you back (2), and I will restore (2), And I will turn you around (2), and I will turn you back (2), and let return (2), and let us return (2), And recaptured (2), and repent (2), and restored it (2), and return him (2), and she returned (2), and they brought back (2), And they turned back (2), and to restore (2), And Turn back (2), and was restored (2), and when they come (2), bring him back (2), but shall return (2), can hinder Him (2), come back (2), did return (2), did turn (2), do return (2), do turn away (2), ever (2), For (2), had brought him back (2), had returned (2), has turned back (2), has withdrawn (2), he had brought back (2), He has recompensed (2), He will turn (2), I should take back (2), I will again (2), I will render (2), I will restore (2), indeed (2), is coming back (2), it shall return (2), let return (2), let them turn back (2), may repay (2), shall he return (2), so again (2), so they brought back (2), that he may return (2), that he might restore (2), that they turned back (2), Then returned (2), Therefore has recompensed (2), they do return (2), They return (2), to answer (2), we will return (2), will again (2), will you repel (2), would return (2), you turn away (2), a restorer (1), about bringing back (1), After this he shall turn (1), against turning (1), And (1), and actually (1), and after which it shall return (1), And afterward went back (1), And Again when turns (1), And Again when turns away (1), and again You (1), and answered him (1), And as returned (1), and bring back to me (1), and bring him back (1), and brings (1), and brought back to him (1), and brought him back (1), and brought it back (1), and brought them back (1), and cause them to return (1), and consider (1), and could answer (1), and do not return (1), And extended (1), and forth (1), and had come back (1), and has returned (1), and He brought (1), And He brought back (1), And he brought me back (1), And He has brought (1), and he has repaid (1), and he regularly paid (1), And he restored again (1), and he returned again (1), and He shall make restitution for (1), and he shall return (1), And he shall turn (1), and He turn away (1), and he turned (1), and He will bring me back (1), And he will turn (1), And he would return (1), and her penitents (1), and him who returns (1), and I answered (1), and I will bring (1), and I will bring you back from (1), and I will cause them to return (1), And I will cause to return (1), and if he turns (1), And if turns (1), and it shall turn back (1), and it turned (1), and it went (1), and lest they return to (1), and let him return (1), and let it go back (1), and let us go back (1), and made return (1), And may return (1), And nevertheless I withdrew (1), and out (1), and paid (1), and put (1), and put back (1), And receded (1), and restore (1), and restore them (1), And Restore us (1), and restore you (1), and restored (1), and retreat (1), And Return you (1), and returned it (1), and returned me (1), and returning (1), and set again (1), and shall be restored (1), and shall be turned (1), And shall come again (1), And shall come back (1), and she will return (1), and take away (1), and take back (1), and the one who returns (1), and therefore turn (1), and they shall bring back (1), and they shall come back (1), and they shall return (1), and they will return (1), and to those who turn from (1), and turned me (1), and turns (1), and turns away (1), and we will be restored (1), and we will come back (1), And were restored (1), And when had returned (1), And when he returned (1), And when I bring back (1), And when returned (1), And when they came back (1), and when they returned (1), and when they turn back (1), and when you turn (1), And while returning (1), and who brought back (1), and will bring it again (1), and will He render (1), and will restore (1), And will take you back (1), and will turn (1), and Yes again and again (1), and yes let turn (1), And yet I will bring back (1), and yet return (1), and yet when they returned (1), and you call (1), And you return (1), And you returned (1), And you shall again (1), and you shall return (1), And you turned around (1), answer (1), as he drew back (1), at all (1), back again (1), be ruined (1), bring her back (1), bring home (1), bringing back (1), bringing retribution on (1), brings me back (1), brought back (1), but again (1), But had returned (1), But I will bring back (1), But they changed their minds (1), but we will return (1), But when they turned (1), But when turns (1), but when turns away (1), But you came back (1), but you return (1), by all means (1), by the same shall he return (1), can answer me (1), can make Him change (1), can revoke (1), can turn her away (1), captured (1), Carry back (1), cause to return (1), come back again (1), comes again (1), comes back (1), considers (1), converting (1), did draw back (1), did I turn back again (1), did repay (1), did she return (1), did they turn (1), Do deny (1), do make me return (1), Do refuse (1), do take (1), do turn (1), do You withdraw (1), does bring home again (1), does come again (1), does he turn back (1), does turn away (1), for He restores (1), for I will bring them back (1), For will return (1), go again (1), go back on it (1), go backward (1), go home (1), had come back (1), had discharged (1), has been restored (1), has brought (1), Has brought me home again (1), has gone back (1), has restored (1), has returned (1), has slidden back (1), has turned (1), has turned away (1), has warped you (1), have brought back (1), have returned (1), he brought back (1), he does turn back (1), he had recovered (1), He has drawn (1), He has turned (1), he has turned back (1), He has withdrawn (1), he recaptured (1), he refreshes (1), He restored (1), He restores (1), he returned (1), he returns (1), he shall give (1), he shall repay (1), he shall repay him (1), he shall turn back (1), He turned away (1), He who answers (1), He who gives (1), He will again (1), He will recompense (1), he will refuse (1), He will repay (1), He will restore (1), himself turned back (1), his return (1), I am returning (1), I bring back (1), I did turn back again (1), I must restore (1), I must return (1), I recall (1), I return (1), I returned (1), I reverse it (1), I shall return (1), I will answer (1), I will answer him (1), I will bring (1), I will refuse (1), I will return it (1), I will turn away (1), I will turn back (1), if you return (1), In any case (1), is past (1), it was restored (1), Jeremiah had gone back (1), let be turned away (1), let come back (1), let each return (1), let go (1), let him turn (1), Let them be turned back (1), Let turn (1), let turn back again (1), Like men returned from (1), make me answer (1), make me return (1), Make return (1), May he return (1), may turn (1), Moreover He will bring back (1), must return (1), must turn away (1), my turning (1), of those brought back (1), of those who had returned (1), Oh do let return (1), Oh restore again (1), or returned (1), paid (1), pull it back (1), Put again (1), put back (1), Recall (1), recovered (1), Repay (1), reported back (1), Rescue (1), Restore me (1), restores (1), return again (1), returns (1), reward (1), shall be converted (1), shall be restored (1), Shall be turned (1), shall I answer Him (1), shall I answer You (1), shall I render (1), shall I return (1), Shall I then take (1), shall turn (1), shall we return (1), She did return (1), should return (1), should we again (1), So brought back (1), So came back (1), So he brought back (1), so he put again (1), so he shall return (1), So he went back (1), So I answered (1), so that I may return (1), so that they may come back (1), so they returned (1), so turned (1), So we have brought back (1), so were brought again (1), so when he had (1), So will return (1), steadily (1), still (1), take back (1), take back home (1), that again (1), that he may go back (1), that he shall restore (1), that he should turn (1), that he turns (1), that he will return (1), that I may answer (1), that I will bring back from (1), that I will return (1), that may be restored (1), that may come back (1), that shall come back (1), that she might return (1), that she returned (1), that they may return (1), that they reverted (1), that they turn (1), that was returned (1), that we might turn (1), that will bring back (1), that will repay (1), that you may answer (1), that You might bring them back (1), the restitution (1), the Restorer (1), then brought them back (1), then come back (1), then he shall return (1), then He will return (1), then He will turn (1), then I turned back (1), then they came back (1), then they have returned (1), then they would have turned them (1), then they would take them back (1), then turned (1), then will turn back (1), then would put (1), then You respond to me (1), then you shall restore it (1), Therefore carried back (1), Therefore he went back (1), Therefore returned (1), Therefore shall return (1), Therefore they came back (1), therefore will return (1), They brought you (1), They have turned back (1), they must cease performing (1), they render (1), they returned (1), they turn (1), they turned (1), Thus he returned (1), Thus repaid (1), to (1), to bring it back (1), to bring them back (1), to catch (1), to go back (1), to have restored (1), to recover (1), to render (1), to repent (1), to reply (1), to revoke (1), to stretch out (1), to those who turn back (1), to turn them (1), to whom restitution may be made for (1), Toward turning (1), Turn us back (1), turned away (1), turned back (1), turns (1), turns again (1), turns back (1), until is turned away (1), we brought back (1), we come back (1), we have turned again (1), we shall return (1), we will restore (1), we would have returned (1), When brought back (1), when he returned (1), when I bring back (1), when I come back (1), When I have brought back (1), When I returned (1), when return (1), When turn (1), When turns (1), when turns away (1), when was returning (1), which was returned (1), who came back (1), who can answer (1), who had returned (1), who has come back (1), who returned (1), who should restore (1), who turns (1), Whoever rewards (1), will answer you (1), will be brought back (1), will be rendered (1), will bring (1), will bring him back (1), will have it roll back (1), will I turn back (1), will one turn away (1), will reverse it (1), will turn back (1), will turn it back (1), will withdraw (1), will you return (1), will You turn me again (1), Yes concede (1), yet (1), Yield (1), you are returning (1), you come back (1), you do go back (1), you do not take (1), you do restore (1), you have (1), You have brought back (1), you have come back (1), You have turned (1), you have turned away (1), You have turned back (1), You make us turn (1), you may return (1), you shall bring it back again (1), you shall bring them back (1), you shall go back (1), you shall return (1), You shall return again (1), you shall return it (1), You will bring me (1), you will return (1).


The question is what kind of return is meant in the context.

Psalm 9 is about God judging the wicked nations who rise up against His people. David speaks of enemies turning back, nations being rebuked, the wicked being destroyed, their names being blotted out, the nations sinking into the pit they made, and the wicked being snared in the work of their own hands.

So when the Psalm says the wicked shall “return” to Sheol, that does not mean they personally originated in Sheol before birth. That's ttruscott’s belief being read into the text.

The picture is of the wicked being turned back, driven back, or sent down into death/judgment. In other words, the forces of wickedness rise up against God’s people, and David calls upon God to turn them back from whence they came, back into Sheol/the pit/death.

That fits the Psalm.

What does not fit is using the word “return” as proof that humans preexisted as spirits in Sheol before they had bodies. The text does not say that, and the context does not require it.

You're definitely right to call him out on his misuse of the verse, though.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
The person is the spirit / soul - not their body! Some people who die go back / return to Sheol from whence they came: Ps 9:17 The wicked will return to Sheol— Berean Standard Bible or do you think they go bodily back to Sheol?


Enrico Norelli writes, "Some fragments also remain, some of them probably spurious, of many writings of Peter of Alexandria, bishop there [in Alexandria] from 300 to 311. In a treatise On the Divinity he insisted that Christ did not abandon his divinity when he became a man. In another work, On the Lord's Coming, he stressed the point that Christ was God by nature and a human being by nature. In a work On the Soul he rejected Origen's teaching on the preexistence of souls on the grounds that it was derived from Greek philosophy and alient to Christianity. Fourteen canons of Peter on penance have survived in a work also known as Canonical Letter, which derived from a festal letter of 306: the canons have to do with the penances to be imposed on the various categories of persons who apostatized during persecution. Peter is also a witness to the way in which criticisms of Origen became inscreasingly specific in the Alexandrian world." (Early Christian Greek and Latin Literature, vol. 1, p. 307)


 

Derf

Well-known member
The person is the spirit / soul - not their body! Some people who die go back / return to Sheol from whence they came: Ps 9:17 The wicked will return to Sheol— Berean Standard Bible or do you think they go bodily back to Sheol?
I'm of the opinion that they go bodily to the grave ("Sheol"). But even if Sheol is the place of the somehow "living" dead, the issue is that Jesus Christ had to die physically and be resurrected physically to assure our salvation. That's because part of our salvation is physical resurrection. Physical resurrection is necessary because our bodies are all heading toward death, and our bodies are a significant part of us.

So once again, if the physical body is not part of the problem, since you say the problem of sin occurred before we had bodies, why did Jesus need to incarnate in a physical body, die in that physical body, and then need to be resurrected in that same physical body (His tomb was EMPTY and His body retained scars long enough to show the disciples)???
Who says? For what reason? What then should the solution require??? Come on, don't hold back...
The solution required Jesus to die physically and to be resurrected physically.
The wages of sin is death - but spirits don't die, not even in hell!!
The wages of our sin is death. I'm not sure that's the wages of spirits' sins. The spirits Jesus cast out of the demoniac asked if Jesus was going to torment them "before the time", which suggests torment is the wages of sin for spirit beings.
Physical death as not the price of sin or hell is meaningless.
Physical death is exactly what God promised (threatened) Adam with when He said not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We know that because after he ate, God said "You are dust and to dust you shall return." Adam wasn't a spirit that would outlive his body, he was dust (ie., he was made from dust), and the punishment for eating from the wrong tree was that he would return to dust, or die.
Every sinner is sown into mankind
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Sin came into the world by one man, Adam.:
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: [Rom 5:12 KJV]

Nothing about that even hints that Adam sinned before he had a body.
, Rev. 12:4-9,
I don't see how that verse applies to our discussion.
so every sinner has a body, Matt 13:36-39, so therefore the elect pre-human sinners are easily covered by the physical death and resurrection of our Lord.

If physicality is meaningful to the consequence of sin why would sinning in the spirit suddenly be so meaningless as to denigrate the meaning of the physical death and resurrection of our Christ?
Huh?? What does "sinning in the spirit" mean? It sounds meaningless to me. The bible doesn't talk about people sinning while disembodied...ever, as far as I know. But if we sinned in the spirit (before we had bodies), why does Jesus have to take on human flesh and die in that flesh to save our spirits?
If the angels are acceptable to GOD as to the elect, 1 Timothy 5:21, and holy, Mark 8:38, why was the physical universe created at all??? Why not go straight to the heavenly marriage?
Good question...in your theology. In mine, the physical world is created to house the physical creatures God created. There is no man without a place for man to be, and he isn't "man" without the physical body, imo. If God takes some of mankind into heaven with Him, that's fine, but He is promising a new heaven and new earth, meaning there will be a physical universe of some sort that man can live in, and Christ and God will be there--
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. [Rev 21:1-3 KJV]
I don't know how physicality enhanced our redemption and sanctification but your objection adds nothing for my faith to coinsider.
It sounds like it should be something for you to consider. It is a conflict in your theology that shouldn't be ignored, because it doesn't make sense. There's no need for the physical world if all of this could be worked out in the spiritual.
For instance, I don't know why the animals were considered less sinful than the serpent in the garden nor how they can be judged for sin with the rest of the world before the flood
The animals didn't sin in the Garden, but they were under the dominion/authority of man when Adam sinned. Therefore they suffer from the result of Adam's sin. This might be similar to the reference you gave about the dragon sweeping a third of the stars down to earth--those might have been the angels that were under his authority.
but these somewhat obscure things have no more to do with PCE theology than your rather sophist style of creating questions bogus to the topic as if they were meaningful...
That's nice, but I think I've pointed out something that doesn't work with your theology, and it bothers you (as it should).
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
Every sinner is sown into mankind
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Sin came into the world by one man, Adam.:
Sin came into the world by one man, Adam.:
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: [Rom 5:12 KJV]

First:
Matt 13:36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
An explanation of a parable or any metaphor cannot use another or more metaphor to explain it or it is a mere expansion of the metaphor, not an explanation at all... To explain a metaphor requires that the terms of the metaphor are revealed in non-metaphoric terms.

Seeds as metaphor
A parable is related to figures of speech such as the metaphors and simile. A parable is like a metaphor in that it uses concrete, perceptible phenomena (seeds planted into a garden) to illustrate abstract ideas (people being sown into the world). It may be said that a parable is a metaphor that has been extended to form a brief, coherent narrative. Referring to people as seeds planted in a garden is a perfect metaphor. The explanation of the parable is that the seeds are people and to change that into something else only reduces the explanation to a new metaphor.

Jesus explained the meaning of the weeds and good seed as referring to people by referencing where they came from and who brought them here:
37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom.
The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.

The other thing to notice is the word TO SOW. At face value to be sown cannot refer to being created as the devil sows some people also as GOD sees fit. This leaves the word sow to be being used in its ordinary sense of to be removed from a place of storage and scattered into a field to grow and mature...

This implies that the sons of the kingdom ARE the sons of the kingdom before they are sown into the field of the world as the good seed. The sons of the evil one ARE the sons of the evil one before they are sown into the field the world, by the devil.

Without metaphor it is impossible to countenance the devil creating people here on earth so we are forced by the created on earth doctrine to find a further metaphor in this passage to explain it which is no explanation at all. Only being moved from somewhere else to the world of mankind satisfies the logic of this passage.

And we have a reference that people came from elsewhere, ie Sheol, into the world in Ps 9:17 The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God. in which it is necessary to notice that the word RETURN, shuv, is the actual Hebrew, not to turn into which is practically the opposite of to return but eases the eisegetic need to keep people from thinking this verse might refer to anyone going back to Sheol after leaving it to come to earth, sigh.

Second: Rom 5:12
1. sin entered with one man.
2. death came with sin.
3. and, death is upon all men because they are sinners.

NOWHERE DOES IT SAY SIN WAS PASSED TO ALL MEN FROM ADAM! Even if my further observations are rejected, your statement of logical events is not supported by this verse.

It clearly says all men have sinned! NOT that they received Adam's sin!

It is very easy to read this as SO / THEREFORE death passed to all men, because all sinned IN ADAM yet that reading is just not required by the text.

Strong's:
death 2288 passed 1330 upon 1519 all 3956 men 444, for 1909 that 3739 all 3956 have sinned 264 :

The Hebrew reads (without the Adamic sin bias) "for that" meaning "because" all have sinned, whether pre-earth or otherwise.

Since the first to sin in the world was the serpent and the second to sin in the world was Eve and Adam was the third to sin in the world, no matter how we pretend this is not so, there is no way Adam brought sin into the world unless he brought it with him as the first person (already a sinner) in the world.

Therefore a reinterpretive version of Rom 5:12 could be:
"Therefore, as sin entered into the world by one [sinful] man [bringing it with him], also death because of that sin; indeed in this [same] manner death passed to all men, because all sinned [pre-earth, ie, before being sown into mankind.]."
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Gonna push back just a little bit here, not because @ttruscott is right (his interpretation is definitely wrong), but because there's nothing inherently wrong with the translation he used.

Let's look at the context. I've included the relevant verses here:


To the Chief Musician. To the tune of “Death of the Son.” A Psalm of David.
I will praise You, O Lord, with my whole heart;
I will tell of all Your marvelous works.
2 I will be glad and rejoice in You;
I will sing praise to Your name, O Most High.
3 When my enemies turn back,
They shall fall and perish at Your presence.
4 For You have maintained my right and my cause;
You sat on the throne judging in righteousness.
5 You have rebuked the nations,
You have destroyed the wicked;
You have blotted out their name forever and ever.
6 O enemy, destructions are finished forever!
And you have destroyed cities;
Even their memory has perished.
7 But the Lord shall endure forever;
He has prepared His throne for judgment.
8 He shall judge the world in righteousness,
And He shall administer judgment for the peoples in uprightness.
9 The Lord also will be a refuge for the oppressed,
A refuge in times of trouble.
10 And those who know Your name will put their trust in You;
For You, Lord, have not forsaken those who seek You.
11 Sing praises to the Lord, who dwells in Zion!
Declare His deeds among the people.
12 When He avenges blood, He remembers them;
He does not forget the cry of the humble.
13 Have mercy on me, O Lord!
Consider my trouble from those who hate me,
You who lift me up from the gates of death,
14 That I may tell of all Your praise
In the gates of the daughter of Zion.
I will rejoice in Your salvation.
15 The nations have sunk down in the pit which they made;
In the net which they hid, their own foot is caught.
16 The Lord is known by the judgment He executes;
17 The wicked is snared in the work of his own hands.
Meditation. Selah
18 The wicked shall be turned into hell,
And all the nations that forget God.
For the needy shall not always be forgotten;
The expectation of the poor shall not perish forever.
19 Arise, O Lord,
Do not let man prevail;
Let the nations be judged in Your sight.
20 Put them in fear, O Lord,
That the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah​


The Hebrew word here is h7725. As you can see, it is often translated as "return" throughout the Old Testament:

Spoiler
Strong's h7725

- Lexical: שׁוּב
- Transliteration: shub
- Part of Speech: Verb
- Phonetic Spelling: shoob
- Definition: to turn back, return.
- Origin: A primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverbial, again.
- Usage: ((break, build, circumcise, dig, do anything, do evil, feed, lay down, lie down, lodge, make, rejoice, send, take, weep)) X again, (cause to) answer (+ again), X in any case (wise), X at all, averse, bring (again, back, home again), call (to mind), carry again (back), cease, X certainly, come again (back), X consider, + continually, convert, deliver (again), + deny, draw back, fetch home again, X fro, get (oneself) (back) again, X give (again), go again (back, home), (go) out, hinder, let, (see) more, X needs, be past, X pay, pervert, pull in again, put (again, up again), recall, recompense, recover, refresh, relieve, render (again), requite, rescue, restore, retrieve, (cause to, make to) return, reverse, reward, + say nay, send back, set again, slide back, still, X surely, take back (off), (cause to, make to) turn (again, self again, away, back, back again, backward, from, off), withdraw.
- Translated as (count): Return (59), and returned (42), and return (27), shall return (18), returned (13), And he returned (11), So returned (11), turn (11), to return (10), again (9), and they returned (9), and Turn (9), And again (8), He shall return (8), I will turn away its (8), you return (7), and came back (6), I will return (6), is turned away (6), restore (6), to bring back (6), will return (6), and come back (5), and shall return (5), I will bring back (5), that returned (5), turn away (5), you have returned (5), and brought back (4), and I will bring back (4), and I will bring them back (4), and I will return (4), And turned (4), and turned back (4), and went back (4), and will return (4), bring back (4), go back (4), they shall return (4), Turn back (4), you turn (4), and bring back (3), and bring them back (3), and cause to return (3), and I will turn (3), and they return (3), and turn away (3), and who returned (3), back (3), he does turn (3), I will cause to return (3), may return (3), render (3), Repent (3), Restore us (3), restored (3), So he returned (3), So turned back (3), surely (3), that may turn away (3), to restore (3), to turn (3), to turn away (3), turn again (3), turned (3), turns away (3), when brings back (3), when I return (3), will bring back (3), will restore (3), will turn (3), and answered (2), and bringing (2), and go back (2), and how should we (2), and I brought back (2), And I turned (2), and I will bring you back (2), and I will restore (2), And I will turn you around (2), and I will turn you back (2), and let return (2), and let us return (2), And recaptured (2), and repent (2), and restored it (2), and return him (2), and she returned (2), and they brought back (2), And they turned back (2), and to restore (2), And Turn back (2), and was restored (2), and when they come (2), bring him back (2), but shall return (2), can hinder Him (2), come back (2), did return (2), did turn (2), do return (2), do turn away (2), ever (2), For (2), had brought him back (2), had returned (2), has turned back (2), has withdrawn (2), he had brought back (2), He has recompensed (2), He will turn (2), I should take back (2), I will again (2), I will render (2), I will restore (2), indeed (2), is coming back (2), it shall return (2), let return (2), let them turn back (2), may repay (2), shall he return (2), so again (2), so they brought back (2), that he may return (2), that he might restore (2), that they turned back (2), Then returned (2), Therefore has recompensed (2), they do return (2), They return (2), to answer (2), we will return (2), will again (2), will you repel (2), would return (2), you turn away (2), a restorer (1), about bringing back (1), After this he shall turn (1), against turning (1), And (1), and actually (1), and after which it shall return (1), And afterward went back (1), And Again when turns (1), And Again when turns away (1), and again You (1), and answered him (1), And as returned (1), and bring back to me (1), and bring him back (1), and brings (1), and brought back to him (1), and brought him back (1), and brought it back (1), and brought them back (1), and cause them to return (1), and consider (1), and could answer (1), and do not return (1), And extended (1), and forth (1), and had come back (1), and has returned (1), and He brought (1), And He brought back (1), And he brought me back (1), And He has brought (1), and he has repaid (1), and he regularly paid (1), And he restored again (1), and he returned again (1), and He shall make restitution for (1), and he shall return (1), And he shall turn (1), and He turn away (1), and he turned (1), and He will bring me back (1), And he will turn (1), And he would return (1), and her penitents (1), and him who returns (1), and I answered (1), and I will bring (1), and I will bring you back from (1), and I will cause them to return (1), And I will cause to return (1), and if he turns (1), And if turns (1), and it shall turn back (1), and it turned (1), and it went (1), and lest they return to (1), and let him return (1), and let it go back (1), and let us go back (1), and made return (1), And may return (1), And nevertheless I withdrew (1), and out (1), and paid (1), and put (1), and put back (1), And receded (1), and restore (1), and restore them (1), And Restore us (1), and restore you (1), and restored (1), and retreat (1), And Return you (1), and returned it (1), and returned me (1), and returning (1), and set again (1), and shall be restored (1), and shall be turned (1), And shall come again (1), And shall come back (1), and she will return (1), and take away (1), and take back (1), and the one who returns (1), and therefore turn (1), and they shall bring back (1), and they shall come back (1), and they shall return (1), and they will return (1), and to those who turn from (1), and turned me (1), and turns (1), and turns away (1), and we will be restored (1), and we will come back (1), And were restored (1), And when had returned (1), And when he returned (1), And when I bring back (1), And when returned (1), And when they came back (1), and when they returned (1), and when they turn back (1), and when you turn (1), And while returning (1), and who brought back (1), and will bring it again (1), and will He render (1), and will restore (1), And will take you back (1), and will turn (1), and Yes again and again (1), and yes let turn (1), And yet I will bring back (1), and yet return (1), and yet when they returned (1), and you call (1), And you return (1), And you returned (1), And you shall again (1), and you shall return (1), And you turned around (1), answer (1), as he drew back (1), at all (1), back again (1), be ruined (1), bring her back (1), bring home (1), bringing back (1), bringing retribution on (1), brings me back (1), brought back (1), but again (1), But had returned (1), But I will bring back (1), But they changed their minds (1), but we will return (1), But when they turned (1), But when turns (1), but when turns away (1), But you came back (1), but you return (1), by all means (1), by the same shall he return (1), can answer me (1), can make Him change (1), can revoke (1), can turn her away (1), captured (1), Carry back (1), cause to return (1), come back again (1), comes again (1), comes back (1), considers (1), converting (1), did draw back (1), did I turn back again (1), did repay (1), did she return (1), did they turn (1), Do deny (1), do make me return (1), Do refuse (1), do take (1), do turn (1), do You withdraw (1), does bring home again (1), does come again (1), does he turn back (1), does turn away (1), for He restores (1), for I will bring them back (1), For will return (1), go again (1), go back on it (1), go backward (1), go home (1), had come back (1), had discharged (1), has been restored (1), has brought (1), Has brought me home again (1), has gone back (1), has restored (1), has returned (1), has slidden back (1), has turned (1), has turned away (1), has warped you (1), have brought back (1), have returned (1), he brought back (1), he does turn back (1), he had recovered (1), He has drawn (1), He has turned (1), he has turned back (1), He has withdrawn (1), he recaptured (1), he refreshes (1), He restored (1), He restores (1), he returned (1), he returns (1), he shall give (1), he shall repay (1), he shall repay him (1), he shall turn back (1), He turned away (1), He who answers (1), He who gives (1), He will again (1), He will recompense (1), he will refuse (1), He will repay (1), He will restore (1), himself turned back (1), his return (1), I am returning (1), I bring back (1), I did turn back again (1), I must restore (1), I must return (1), I recall (1), I return (1), I returned (1), I reverse it (1), I shall return (1), I will answer (1), I will answer him (1), I will bring (1), I will refuse (1), I will return it (1), I will turn away (1), I will turn back (1), if you return (1), In any case (1), is past (1), it was restored (1), Jeremiah had gone back (1), let be turned away (1), let come back (1), let each return (1), let go (1), let him turn (1), Let them be turned back (1), Let turn (1), let turn back again (1), Like men returned from (1), make me answer (1), make me return (1), Make return (1), May he return (1), may turn (1), Moreover He will bring back (1), must return (1), must turn away (1), my turning (1), of those brought back (1), of those who had returned (1), Oh do let return (1), Oh restore again (1), or returned (1), paid (1), pull it back (1), Put again (1), put back (1), Recall (1), recovered (1), Repay (1), reported back (1), Rescue (1), Restore me (1), restores (1), return again (1), returns (1), reward (1), shall be converted (1), shall be restored (1), Shall be turned (1), shall I answer Him (1), shall I answer You (1), shall I render (1), shall I return (1), Shall I then take (1), shall turn (1), shall we return (1), She did return (1), should return (1), should we again (1), So brought back (1), So came back (1), So he brought back (1), so he put again (1), so he shall return (1), So he went back (1), So I answered (1), so that I may return (1), so that they may come back (1), so they returned (1), so turned (1), So we have brought back (1), so were brought again (1), so when he had (1), So will return (1), steadily (1), still (1), take back (1), take back home (1), that again (1), that he may go back (1), that he shall restore (1), that he should turn (1), that he turns (1), that he will return (1), that I may answer (1), that I will bring back from (1), that I will return (1), that may be restored (1), that may come back (1), that shall come back (1), that she might return (1), that she returned (1), that they may return (1), that they reverted (1), that they turn (1), that was returned (1), that we might turn (1), that will bring back (1), that will repay (1), that you may answer (1), that You might bring them back (1), the restitution (1), the Restorer (1), then brought them back (1), then come back (1), then he shall return (1), then He will return (1), then He will turn (1), then I turned back (1), then they came back (1), then they have returned (1), then they would have turned them (1), then they would take them back (1), then turned (1), then will turn back (1), then would put (1), then You respond to me (1), then you shall restore it (1), Therefore carried back (1), Therefore he went back (1), Therefore returned (1), Therefore shall return (1), Therefore they came back (1), therefore will return (1), They brought you (1), They have turned back (1), they must cease performing (1), they render (1), they returned (1), they turn (1), they turned (1), Thus he returned (1), Thus repaid (1), to (1), to bring it back (1), to bring them back (1), to catch (1), to go back (1), to have restored (1), to recover (1), to render (1), to repent (1), to reply (1), to revoke (1), to stretch out (1), to those who turn back (1), to turn them (1), to whom restitution may be made for (1), Toward turning (1), Turn us back (1), turned away (1), turned back (1), turns (1), turns again (1), turns back (1), until is turned away (1), we brought back (1), we come back (1), we have turned again (1), we shall return (1), we will restore (1), we would have returned (1), When brought back (1), when he returned (1), when I bring back (1), when I come back (1), When I have brought back (1), When I returned (1), when return (1), When turn (1), When turns (1), when turns away (1), when was returning (1), which was returned (1), who came back (1), who can answer (1), who had returned (1), who has come back (1), who returned (1), who should restore (1), who turns (1), Whoever rewards (1), will answer you (1), will be brought back (1), will be rendered (1), will bring (1), will bring him back (1), will have it roll back (1), will I turn back (1), will one turn away (1), will reverse it (1), will turn back (1), will turn it back (1), will withdraw (1), will you return (1), will You turn me again (1), Yes concede (1), yet (1), Yield (1), you are returning (1), you come back (1), you do go back (1), you do not take (1), you do restore (1), you have (1), You have brought back (1), you have come back (1), You have turned (1), you have turned away (1), You have turned back (1), You make us turn (1), you may return (1), you shall bring it back again (1), you shall bring them back (1), you shall go back (1), you shall return (1), You shall return again (1), you shall return it (1), You will bring me (1), you will return (1).


The question is what kind of return is meant in the context.

Psalm 9 is about God judging the wicked nations who rise up against His people. David speaks of enemies turning back, nations being rebuked, the wicked being destroyed, their names being blotted out, the nations sinking into the pit they made, and the wicked being snared in the work of their own hands.

So when the Psalm says the wicked shall “return” to Sheol, that does not mean they personally originated in Sheol before birth. That's ttruscott’s belief being read into the text.

The picture is of the wicked being turned back, driven back, or sent down into death/judgment. In other words, the forces of wickedness rise up against God’s people, and David calls upon God to turn them back from whence they came, back into Sheol/the pit/death.

That fits the Psalm.

What does not fit is using the word “return” as proof that humans preexisted as spirits in Sheol before they had bodies. The text does not say that, and the context does not require it.

You're definitely right to call him out on his misuse of the verse, though.

Oh and I completely forgot the obvious one:

"From dust you were created, and to dust you shall return ."
 
Top