Why Did God create the being who He knew would become Satan?

[Skywatch89]

Why Did God create the being who He knew would become Satan?

Would evil and sin still exist if Satan never existed?

Have you ever wondered why doesn’t God get rid of Satan right now, since He’s all-powerful?

 

[ok doser]

If sin and evil did not exist, how would humans (or angels) rebel against God?

 

[Idolater]

Why Did God create the being who He knew would become Satan?

Open theists are going to push back on that He knew Satan would fall before He created all the angels.

Would evil and sin still exist if Satan never existed?

Tough to say. obv Biblically our first parents learned how to sin by the 'monkey-see,-monkey-do' method, so it's conceivable that without Satan we'd have never thought to sin.

But then the whole World came into being through the work of angels, is what we gather, from God feeling the need to create angels in the first place. Angels must be essential to the creation. Not mere ornaments; God must have used angels extensively to create the World.

Have you ever wondered why doesn’t God get rid of Satan right now, since He’s all-powerful?

God is in the process of getting rid of Satan rn.

 

[Nick M]

Why Did God create the being who He knew would become Satan?

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering:....

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

I will ask again, why not just go with what the Bible says?

 

[Nick M]

God is in the process of getting rid of Satan

He has not been cast out by Michael. Yet. By the way, this is why some believe in the rapture being mid-tribulation.

 

[ttruscott]

Why Did God create the being who He knew would become Satan?

ImCo, HE does NOT know the true free will decisions of HIS creation.

HE has made HIS desire for hell to be empty very clear:

• 2 Peter 3:9: States God is patient, "not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance".
• 1 Timothy 2:3–4: Highlights that God "desires all people to be saved".
• Ezekiel 33:11: Expresses that God takes "no pleasure in the death of the wicked," preferring they turn from evil and live....yet at the same time
• John 3:16–17: Explains that God sent His Son so the world might be saved rather than condemned.

at the same time HE tells us that HE only does what pleases HIM:

• Psalm 115:3: "Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases."
• Psalm 135:6: "Whatever the Lord pleases He does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deep places."
• Revelation 4:11 (KJV): "...for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."
• Isaiah 46:10: "...My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my pleasure."
• Ephesians 1:5, 9: Explains that God predestined believers for adoption and revealed His mysterious plan "according to the good pleasure of His will."
• Philippians 2:13: "For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

This is enough proof for me to put my faith in rejecting the current favourite definition of omniscience that HE must know all that can be known for all eternity, past to future because...

all HE had to do to ensure hell was empty as HE desired was to not create those who HE knew would choose to end in hell. Period. So obviously at our creation HE did not know our future free will decisions.

Have you ever wondered why doesn’t God get rid of Satan right now, since He’s all-powerful?

Yes, until I realized the import of the story of the weeds and good seeds:
Matt 13:
27The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest.

The weeds could have been sown on Mars and the good seed on Earth to keep them separate but these verses imply that the good seed needs them for some reason.

Though they are called good it is obvious these seeds are sinners because if the judgement against all sinners were called too soon they would be pulled up and destroyed also....so it seems to be implied that they somehow are affected or learn from their experiences with the evil weeds in a way that helps them to repent, to return to their Saviour and become fully sanctified.

Our interactions with these reprobate weeds is part of the discipline that we must go thru in our training unto righteousness which all legitimate children of GOD go thru:
Heb 12 5-11
4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons:

“My son, do not take lightly the discipline of the Lord,
and do not lose heart when He rebukes you.
6For the Lord disciplines [actually: scourges as to be whipped] the one He loves, and He chastises every son He receives.”
7Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you do not experience discipline like everyone else, then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Furthermore, we have all had earthly fathers who disciplined us, and we respected them. Should we not much more submit to the Father of our spirits and live?

10Our fathers disciplined us for a short time as they thought best, but God disciplines us for our good, so that we may share in His holiness. 11No discipline seems enjoyable at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it yields a harvest of righteousness and peace to those who have been trained by it.

 

[Nick M]

at the same time HE tells us that HE only does what pleases HIM:

And that includes sending people that shake their fist at him to hell.

 

[ttruscott]

And that includes sending people that shake their fist at him to hell.

Of course it does but HE did not create them knowing HE would send them to hell while at the same time HE did not want anyone to perish in hell!

2 Timothy 2:13
Berean Standard Bible
if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Hebrews 10:23
Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful.

 

[Nick M]

Of course it does but HE did not create them knowing HE would send them to hell while at the same time HE did not want anyone to perish in hell!

Agreed. I also don't want people to do evil.

 

[Derf]

Open theists are going to push back on that He knew Satan would fall before He created all the angels.

I don't think it is unreasonable, as there's no verse making the claim that He knew such a thing. However, it is entirely appropriate to think God knew SOME of the angels would fall before He created them. Maybe not which ones, because if He knew which ones would fall, then they were determined to fall before they existed, and therefore they aren't the agents responsible for their fall.

 

[Idolater]

I don't think it is unreasonable, as there's no verse making the claim that He knew such a thing. However, it is entirely appropriate to think God knew SOME of the angels would fall before He created them. Maybe not which ones, because if He knew which ones would fall, then they were determined to fall before they existed, and therefore they aren't the agents responsible for their fall.

Wouldn't it be appropriate then to think that God would know the angels that would fall, would organize into a hierarchy and that therefore one of them would become their leader? and wouldn't that leader be Satan?

 

[Derf]

Wouldn't it be appropriate then to think that God would know the angels that would fall, would organize into a hierarchy and that therefore one of them would become their leader? and wouldn't that leader be Satan?

Only if He knows which ones will rebel. If He knows that, before they exist, then their fall/rebellion is determined for them...they are not responsible. And if they are not responsible, but are only following a path predetermined for them, it seems unjust to punish them for it.

I don't see the necessity of God organizing His enemies' ranks, do you?

 

[Nick M]

Wouldn't it be appropriate then to think that God would know the angels that would fall, would organize into a hierarchy and that therefore one of them would become their leader? and wouldn't that leader be Satan?

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering:....

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

 

[Idolater]

Only if He knows which ones will rebel.

Let me reanswer your previous post:

►

... it is entirely appropriate to think God knew SOME of the angels would fall before He created them. Maybe not which ones ...

He knows each of them. He knows each of their natures. You're suggesting perhaps He knew some of them would fall before He made them. I'm saying He knew them intimately. If He makes angel X, angel Y and angel Z, He knows angel X, angel Y and angel Z intimately, He knows their nature, He made their nature, He made them.​

​

You're suggesting He might know that one or two of them would fall, would rebel and deny Him. I'm saying then He also could think through that possibility, and consider possible outcomes. Possible outcome 1 for example: Angel X and angel Y rebel, angel Z is faithful and obedient. He can then knowing angel X and angel Y thoroughly, surmise that under this possible outcome angel X would be angel Y's leader, under this possible future. Or that they would be brothers with no hierarchy. Either way. But it's based on their nature, which He hasn't even made yet—He's going to make them with a nature. That nature is going to determine that if the angels fall, they will organize into a hierarchy.​

​

We do all know that it turned out the fallen angels did form into a hierarchy. I'm just saying that if God knew some of the angels would fall before He created them, then it stands to reason, trivially, that He also knew that they would organize into a hierarchical structure; which is what they did do.​

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If He knows that, before they exist, then their fall/rebellion is determined for them...they are not responsible. And if they are not responsible, but are only following a path predetermined for them, it seems unjust to punish them for it.

I don't see the necessity of God organizing His enemies' ranks, do you?

I'm not saying He did that. I'm saying they did that.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

The weeds could have been sown on Mars and the good seed on Earth to keep them separate but these verses imply that the good seed needs them for some reason.

Though they are called good it is obvious these seeds are sinners because if the judgement against all sinners were called too soon they would be pulled up and destroyed also....so it seems to be implied that they somehow are affected or learn from their experiences with the evil weeds in a way that helps them to repent, to return to their Saviour and become fully sanctified.

I've never thought about it that way before, actually. But that's interesting.

 

[Derf]

Let me reanswer your previous post:

►

He knows each of them. He knows each of their natures. You're suggesting perhaps He knew some of them would fall before He made them. I'm saying He knew them intimately. If He makes angel X, angel Y and angel Z, He knows angel X, angel Y and angel Z intimately, He knows their nature, He made their nature, He made them.​

You are saying that God made them with the nature that causes them to fall? That's the type of "nature" God created them with? If that's so, then of course He would know which ones would fall, but how just is it that He would punish them for falling, when that's how He made them? If God punished a cow for eating grass and giving milk, how just is He?

​

You're suggesting He might know that one or two of them would fall, would rebel and deny Him.​

But not which ones.

I'm saying then He also could think through that possibility, and consider possible outcomes. Possible outcome 1 for example: Angel X and angel Y rebel, angel Z is faithful and obedient. He can then knowing angel X and angel Y thoroughly, surmise that under this possible outcome angel X would be angel Y's leader, under this possible future. Or that they would be brothers with no hierarchy. Either way. But it's based on their nature, which He hasn't even made yet—He's going to make them with a nature. That nature is going to determine that if the angels fall, they will organize into a hierarchy.​

Sounds like an ant colony.

​

We do all know that it turned out the fallen angels did form into a hierarchy. I'm just saying that if God knew some of the angels would fall before He created them, then it stands to reason, trivially, that He also knew that they would organize into a hierarchical structure; which is what they did do.​

◄



I'm not saying He did that. I'm saying they did that.

That sounds like you're walking back what you said. I would propose that He made them in a hierarchy from the beginning ("nature" reasonably expresses that some are more capable of leading than others, perhaps), and for good purpose(s). God might assign certain tasks to a group of angels and the foreman/supervisor would be responsible for transmitting the instructions to the workers and making sure they do it correctly. They might have even had a hand in the bringing forth of trees, fish, birds, and beasts from the earth and water, when God said something like "Let the earth bring forth..." or "Let the seas teem with..."

Lucifer might well have done fantastic work there, which was included in the "it was very good" description. And then he got too full of himself and decided he was better at leading than God. But that's not part of his nature, to rebel, if he was originally part of the "very good" creation.

 

[ttruscott]

However, it is entirely appropriate to think God knew SOME of the angels would fall before He created them. Maybe not which ones, because if He knew which ones would fall, then they were determined to fall before they existed, and therefore they aren't the agents responsible for their fall.

I used to think that as the only answer but I stumbled on the idea that HE was the agent responsible for their / our fall.

Couple that with the necessity of our fall or election to be based upon our free will and this dogma just had to go...

PCE filled in the missing pieces to the puzzle and I finally got to rest in the Lord.

 

[ttruscott]

Wouldn't it be appropriate then to think that God would know the angels that would fall, would organize into a hierarchy and that therefore one of them would become their leader? and wouldn't that leader be Satan?

ImCo:
I believe HE wants no one to perish in hell so it is impossible in my mind and theology to believe HE knew who would fall into unforgivable eternal sin before their creation but created them anyway... At the same time I accept that HE knew the outcomes and style of decisions such sinners would make and would organize under.

The person who first spoke their truth that YHWH was lying to us when HE proclaimed to all of creation, Col 1:23, HIS deity, the gospel of sin needing redemption from destruction and that salvation from the effects of choosing sin could only be found in GOD the Son became their natural leader who led the others into rebuking HIM as a liar and therefore a false god sealing their fate in hell. His name is Satan, etc...

 

[ttruscott]

I've never thought about it that way before, actually. But that's interesting.

"Good" would then not have a moral connotation but is used as a status indicator, indicating their status as an elect sinner.

 

[Derf]

I used to think that as the only answer but I stumbled on the idea that HE was the agent responsible for their / our fall.

Couple that with the necessity of our fall or election to be based upon our free will and this dogma just had to go...

PCE filled in the missing pieces to the puzzle and I finally got to rest in the Lord.

You are merely pushing the problem back, making the more important thing the immaterial person, which removes the need for the bodily sacrifice of Christ and the physical resurrection of Christ.