Aimiel
Well-known member
Along with this verse one needs to keep in mind the fact that God said that He doesn't share His Glory with anyone. Ergo: Jesus IS God!!!
Jesus is God
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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God's Truth
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...just more unnecessary insults.
God's Truth
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See Deuteronomy 32:18. You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.
1 Corinthians 10:4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
The rock that fathered them and gave them BIRTH was Christ.
God in the Old Testament is the Father, and He is the Rock.
Psalm 42:9 I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?
God's Truth
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The scripture plainly says that Jesus was speaking of his body. That is what it says in the Book of John.
God's Truth
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Psalms 22:16 KJV For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Zechariah 12:9-10 KJV And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Revelation 1:7-8 KJV Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
These scriptures prove that God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son are the same one.
Whose hands were pierced? Who is the Alpha and the Omega? Who is the Almighty?
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Whose hand? They are one and the same.
They are one. 'One' means 'same'.
Right Divider
When are you going to tell me if you think Jesus is God the Father in the Old Testament?
Zechariah 12:9-10 KJV And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Revelation 1:7-8 KJV Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
These scriptures prove that God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son are the same one.
Whose hands were pierced? Who is the Alpha and the Omega? Who is the Almighty?
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Whose hand? They are one and the same.
They are one. 'One' means 'same'.
Right Divider
When are you going to tell me if you think Jesus is God the Father in the Old Testament?
Like I said, incapable of addressing ideas that don't fit your preconceptions.
Right Divider
Body part
It's necessary to identify falsehood and expose it... per the Bible.
Right Divider
Body part
Yes, Yes.... God is the rock. Doesn't help your story.
God's Truth
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John says Jesus was speaking of his body.
God's Truth
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Show where in the Bible it says to merely insult.
God's Truth
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Is God the Rock the Father?
NWL
Active member
You like Clete do not understand the basics. Jesus being the root of David has nothing to do with him being the foundation or the person, namely God, who established David, therefore being the "root" of David. Instead, it means that he is the descendant. The Hebrew word used for “root” (sheresh) implies a root that remains alive and sends up a shoot or branch; thus, the root of David was a root from which more descendants could come. Think of a dead tree where all but one of the roots is maintaining a single branch of a tree, the "root of David" would symbolize the root keeping this living branch alive, any branch or leaves from this root (i.e descendants) can be called the "root of David" (see below picture of a tree with a living branch, the produce of this branch are the "root" of this branch). Scholars understand this metaphor hence why all and even Trinitarians scholars all accept Jesus being the root of David means to be his descendant and not the foregoer.
You are confusing "deferring to an authority on the issue" with me appealing to authority fallacy, which are very different things. An appeal to authority relates to stating something is true as experts on the subject say it' true and using no other supporting evidence, I did not do this as I only used expert opinion as further evidence along with my own.
Also, are you suggesting all scholars, who have put in far more hours of study and actually understand the languages of the Bible, are purposely or mistakingly stating the "root of David" means to be a descendant of David?
Where is the evidence you have that "root of David" means to be the one who established David? Does it all boil down to your understanding of the word "root" in English, if it is this is going to be very embarrassing for you.
I still don't see what point Clete was getting at or the purpose of his question. I see the verses you've posted, please write a sentence of two of the point you're getting at, so far all I see is waffle.
My point is this, Trinitarians often say when it states things like "Jesus died" that this was speaking in regards to his humanity, or when he asked for "the cup to pass from him" before his death this was his humanity speaking or where it states he "does not know the day or the hour" but only the Father does it was speaking about his humanity. When a verse states something regarding Jesus which goes contrary to the understanding of Gods attributes Trinitarians pin it on Jesus humanity and say it was Jesus humanity speaking. If a verse was to say "Jesus in his divinity did not know the day or the hour" this would create a problem for Trinitarians as they could no longer say "it's in reference to his humanity". This is exactly what happens with Rev 1:18 if one was to claim the title "first and last" is synonymous with "the alpha and Omega" and refers to the almighty of Rev 1:8, as it, in essence, would be Jesus saying "I am the first and the last, namely the Almighty, and I became dead". The verse would be Jesus speaking in his divinity, hence why he says "I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST" and goes on to say he "BECAME DEAD" which is impossible for the Almighty to do.
You asked "would you be so kind as to define what you mean by "die" in your statement, "God cannot die"?".
Death is the opposite of life, to be dead means to have no existence after a period of existence. When I state God cannot die I mean God, or any part of him, can go out of existence.
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NWL
Active member
Yes but to simply prostrate yourself to someone doesn't make them God. There were a lot of people who bowed to others in the Bible, with the text even using the same form of words that were used when people bowed to Jesus, this does not make them the one God,l however. Your argument must be consistent for it to be believable and crediable.
Genesis 33:3: Jacob bowed to his brother Esau
Exodus 18:7: Moses bowed to his father-in-law
Ruth 2:10: Ruth bowed to Boaz
1 Samuel 20:41: David bowed to Jonathan
1 Samuel 24:8: David bowed to King Saul
1 Samuel 25:3: Abigail bowed to David
Daniel 2:46: Nebuchadnezzar bowed to Daniel
These, and many other, occurrences of the verb proskuneo (in the LXX) which is often translated as worship in the NT.
Yes, and Jesus could not conquer without the Father. So the same way Jesus followers are reliant on him to conquer, Jesus was reliant on the Father when he conquered, nonetheless, it is the Father who is the source of the throne. The Father didn't have to conquer or do anything to sit on the throne, Jesus did and his followers did, thus Jesus isn't the Father or the one God and had to DO things to be granted the privilege of sitting on the throne, the same way his followers do.
I don't see any rational behind your above statement. For example, I believe Jesus is the most highest and esteemed person in creation who isn't God and was the very first thing God created, he existed alongside God as a spirit being and was identical to God except for the fact God created him and was therefore his God. Jesus then came to earth as a man and died for us. Why could this understanding not be a viable understanding, please explain why only God in the flesh could do what Jesus did and not a created spirit being.
Sorry but I do not understand your question. Was your question "how are all livings things saved through him if he is not God", if so I will answer this question, if this is not what you asked please just say so.
As I said in my last response I believe Jesus was the first created thing and was and is the highest esteemed thing in creation and is second only to God himself. Man is a slave to sin because of Adam sinned and therefore we inherited his sinful nature because of him, "through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned" (Romans 5:12), Jesus came down to earth as a Man and acted as the replacement of Adam with his death being a ransom for the sins and death caused because of Adam.
There is NOTHING in the bible that suggest God had to be the ransom, there is nothing in the bible that states that there needed to be anything other than a perfect human life that needed to act as a ransom to save mankind.
As I've said Jesus was a creation of God, Gods first creation, in fact Hebrews 1:3 states "He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact charaktēr of his very being".
charaktér - Strongs 5481
Definition: a tool for engraving
Usage: an impression, representation, exact reproduction; a graving-tool.
The charaktēr in Greek refers to the impression given off by a signet ring, a signet ring has a mark or key that you press into hot wax leaving an impression. This is how Jesus is described in comparison to God, Jesus is theimpression of God, he is NOT God himself but his impression. What does this have to do with anything, as the Hebrews 1:3 states Jesus is the "exact impression of God very being", the same way a human son has the features and learned characteristics of his human father, Jesus, a perfect and divine being, resembles the Father so much he can be called the "exact impression of God very being". Hence why seeing Jesus is like seeing the Father, this isn't to say Jesus is the Father.
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NWL
Active member
Isaiah's 9:6 context shows Jesus is a God but not the "one God", for it states "His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God" and not "His name is the Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God". The verse is speaking in a future tense, I cannot say about the Queen of Great Britain "she will be called the Queen of Great Britain" if she already is the Queen of Great Britain, in the same way Jesus is not the "one God" as the context shows he was to become a Mighty God.
You said "When Thomas said ‘my Lord and my God’, he said that to Jesus", well, in regards to Satan it is said that he is "the God/god of this world", using the definite article (ho thoes) just like John 20:28 reference to Jesus. Remember, your argument must be consistent for it to be credible, so does Satan being called "the ho thoes of the world" imply he is the one God, if not then why can the same not said about Jesus. Just because Jesus is called God it does not imply he is the one God, it is clear, the one God is the Father and no one else, "just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” there is actually to us one God, the Father" (1 Cor 8:5,6)
The Bible never applies the term God to the apostles so no, I would not refer to them as Gods, nor myself.
My argument is consistent as I do not claim that when beings are called Gods/gods that they are the same type of Gods as you infer I do. Jesus being called God is completely different to satan being called a God and Moses being called a God or the Jews being called gods. As 1 Cor 8:4-6 says, "there are many gods" and NOT "there are many of the same gods".
Jesus did do something God cannot do, he died, hence why he isn't God as God cannot die.
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NWL
Active member
He was incorrect according to Jesus' standard of good, hence why the context shows the man correcting himself by him leaving out out the "good" in the "good teacher" when he replies, see the below context.
(Mark 10:17-20) "..As he was going on his way, a man ran up and fell on his knees before him and put the question to him: “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?” 18 Jesus said to him: “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except one, God...The man said to him: “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth on.."
The Father is the source and bar that all moral and goodness comes, that is the point Jesus was making.
God's Truth
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You aren’t considering carefully enough. Think about it more---we are to only bow to God the Father, but Jesus let people bow to him. An apostle stopped someone from bowing to him, and so did an angel. Jesus didn’t stop anyone from bowing to him. We are only to bow to God.
In that time, the Old Testament times, bowing was about earthly things to earthly people.
In the New Testament times it is about Jesus and what is spiritual.
We are no longer to do certain things.
Revelation 22:8-9 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”
Acts 10:25-26 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”
You just don't do some things anymore, just because it was done in the Old Testament times.
Just like we are no longer to call anyone 'father', because we are now brothers and sisters in Christ.
Jesus conquered because he is God come in the flesh as a man. There is no human who can do what Jesus did, including never sinning. So then, you haven’t disproved what I had said. You haven’t proven your case that Jesus isn’t God.
Jesus is God the Father with a body; same one and only Spirit.
Same body, same Person, same Spirit.
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;
Do you believe the saved receive the Holy Spirit to live in them when they are saved?
Do you believe God the Father lives in the saved?
Do you believe Jesus lives in the saved?
Do you understand that we are only given one Spirit when we are saved?
You say Jesus is not God---so then, how does Jesus live in all the saved at the same time with the Father if he is not God?
God is invisible and lives in unapproachable light, and He made Himself a body, and then came to earth as a man, then went back to heaven to the same place and body he had before coming to earth.
No such human, except God come as a son in the flesh.
Right Divider
Body part
The Son is not the Father.... The Father is not the Son.
Jesus is the Son eternally. Jesus did NOT "become" the Son at His incarnation.
God's Truth
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There is something you are forgetting, and that is that there is only one God Almighty, only one Everlasting Father, and only one Counselor.
There is only one of those, and, it is only said to God the Father and Jesus Christ. They are one, and one means ‘the same’.
You are confused, for I know the scriptures say there are ‘gods’.
So try again.
There is only one God who is called God the Almighty, the Redeemer, the Holy One, the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the King of kings.
Only God the Father is called those things, and Jesus Christ.
So then your argument is false.
Don’t use the argument that there are other gods if you can’t apply your argument to all the other gods. How do you ever get that you can say but there are other gods, but then say you can't apply the 'God' scriptures to them?
God came as a man and died in the flesh for us. Spirits don’t die, not even spirits of men. Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh and lived in the Spirit.
God's Truth
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The Son is GOD and there is ONLY ONE God and He is the Father. That is scripture.
God the Father is the ROCK.
God the Father says He is I AM.
Jesus says that he is the I AM.
So how can you say Jesus is God, is the I AM, but isn't God the Father come as a son in the flesh?
Right Divider
Body part
It's simple... the Bible says that Jesus was the Son BEFORE He came to earth.
Joh 17:5 KJV And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
You have a story that you are forcing on the Bible instead of believing what it says.