Dear Nikolai: Are you suggesting St. John is not in harmony with St. Peter? Perhaps the earliest records of the N.T. Church were discombobulated rantings of the ill informed.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Dear Nikolai: Are you suggesting St. John is not in harmony with St. Peter? Perhaps the earliest records of the N.T. Church were discombobulated rantings of the ill informed.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
You are a tinkling cymbal Doser. You have no love for the lost, only derision. You don't care eh? Fine.
Just don't drag the God you say you believe in into Club Smug with you.
Psalm 136
חֶסֶד - mercy, lovingkindness
It endures forever.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
It's not "nice" but it's true and your continual use of the "yawn" smiley says enough in itself. Your former and continual anticipatory glee of gloating about how you'd enjoy seeing Rusha "burn in hell" also spelled out the obvious.
To say that you'd be "laughing alongside God" at the suffering of people in hell is just bizarre. What makes you think that God would be laughing?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
not so george - i reserve my derision for those like FL who reject correction and cling to false dogma of the wicked
| Proverbs 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; 27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. |
Bingo!
The idea that false threats were necessary to keep the common people in check, and that the truth might be held esoterically, prevailed among the earlier Christians, so that there can be no doubt that many who seem to teach endless punishment, really held the broader views, as we know the most did, and preached terrors pedagogically.
The first comparatively complete systematic statement of Christian doctrine ever given to the world was by Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 180, and universal salvation was one of the tenets.
The first complete presentation of Christianity as a system was by Origen (A.D. 220) and universal salvation was explicitly contained in it.
"God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially those who trust in Him..."
Please Note:
All= the radical all
Malista is not monon or monos.
Source, Guide, Goal of the all/ the ta panta
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Tinkling cymbal was rather polite on George's part. What does the bible say about the unloving, the unmerciful?
Where has your compassion ever been displayed on here?
And don't play coy where it comes to Rusha. You know fine well your trolling on the score where it came to wishing her "burning in hell".
I'm sorry for you in some ways if you lack the capacity to feel love, empathy and compassion.
Some here would have more than One be Immortal...it is clear only ONE is IMMORTAL...He allows His Son to be...and provides a tree of life for the rest of us...
Barred from access to the tree of life WE DIE...NOT able to eat from it in spirit form...either in heaven or Abraham’s Bosom motel...or hell tormented in spirit form with parched tongues that need water...
Spirits do NOT eat...
Man was NEVER immortal...but dependent on the tree of life...those in hell in spirit form could not eat of it even if they had access to it...(they don’t)
Be afraid of the One that can DESTROY the soul...and He will...
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Not at all! But nowhere in Peter do I see anything referring to prayers for the dead. Christ loosed the bands of death that held those that were physically judged in the flood so that they could be made alive spiritually even while having died physically. But there's nothing there that I see that speaks about us praying for the dead. Peter is looking at the resurrection of the Lord and describing its impact on those who perished not having had the benefit of knowing the gospel. Or should Jesus have counseled those who excused their uwillingness to follow Him - claiming funereal duties - by saying "Go pray for the dead"?
There is one verse (that I am aware of) that would justify (in my mind) what might be called praying for the dead. That is 2 Timothy 1:18
The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.
The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.
2 Timothy 2:16-18
I see this as prayer only loosely - in the sense that Paul is desiring this man's eternal good (and I am assuming for the argument that he is actually dead at time of the letter). But I note that it is on the grounds of this man's caring for Paul that Paul desired his mercy. He doesn't go into detail, but it certainly sounds like it's in line with the Lord's commands to the 12 when he sent them out to the lost sheep of the House of Israel:
He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
Matthew 10:40-42
In other words, Paul isn't beseeching the Lord for the salvation of one of his adversaries - but rather desiring (in a very deep and extensive way) the salvation of one who served Him. Why? I can only assume it's because the man showed that he was ministering to Christ by ministering Paul (according to Matthew 10, anyway). You'll note that there are other times when Paul desires some not-so-nice things for his enemies (Alexander the Coppersmith comes to mind). His statement in I Cor 16:22 seems rather final...
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
I Cor 16:22
The term Anathema is pretty extreme (and final). Paul, for example uses it of himself in Romans 9:3
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Romans 9:3
Same Greek term even if a different English word.
So while I do recognize that that there is room for desiring eternal good for someone, relying on it as a tried means of obtaining a desired end for someone seems to me to be going beyond what is written. In other words, I don't see Peter establishing prayer for the dead - but I do see Paul giving loose reference to it. But certainly not enough to use it as evidence of after death conversion. Just as I see the general universal reconciliation as a decent hope, I don't see it taught in scripture - I see the same thing for prayers for the dead. Not something I would major in - and not enough to build a solid doctrine upon.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
george is a heckuva nice guy :thumb:
:yawn:
it doesn't meet your expectations, so it doesn't exist?
:yawn:
who? :idunno:
that's nice :yawn:
that's nice :yawn:
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
This quotation, if you will read Proverbs 1 carefully, is personifying Wisdom as an entity that will laugh in the face of those who choose foolishness instead. It follows on from verse 20 where wisdom calls out into the streets to be heard. It is wisdom that will "laugh" when fear, destruction, distress and anguish come.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Dear Ace: I have no idea why the earliest Church indicates prayer for the dead. The record points in that direction, although I also find nothing in the 66 books of Canon directing such an endeavor. One thing is certain for me: the first thing the Master of the Reconciliation did as He arose in resurrection zao, was go to the "disobedient" dead of those destroyed in the great flood & bring them to zao life. If the Master is reaching to the heavens, the earth and the underworld (and He is) I see zero problem with being in total union with His moving's in prayer.
"By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."
The whole of created life shall be delivered..
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Yes, he seems to be just that.
You find it boring what the Bible says about the unloving and unmerciful?
If you gleefully anticipate the eternal suffering of other people then yes, it doesn't exist.
You know fine well who. The long time poster here who you used to post about and how you'd look forward to seeing her burning in hell. Are you losing your memory or something?
:idunno:
No, it isn't.
:sigh:
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Well, you can't have much time for it given your unloving and gleeful attitude considering your anticipation of other people burning in hell and how you'd laugh at them.
No, but then the irony is somehow lost on you.
Oh, plenty other people haven't forgotten about how you said you looked forward to seeing Rusha burn in hell et al. Curious how you seem to have forgotten all about it.
Ho hum.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
that's nice :yawn:
that's nice :yawn:
that's nice :yawn:
no idea what you're raving about :yawn:
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Careful dude, you'll wear yourself out yawning that much...
Dear Ace: I can give you another word in koine which is one of the strongest for destruction, that word is apollumi. I intend to pursue this a little later. At the moment I am being challenged by a few lunatics that still dwell at the foot of the mountain, so please be patient.
Do you have any idea how many distinct words there are in Hebrew for destruction? That is correct; over 20! That group of nasty words have a number that link destruction with change and transformation in dual aspect of meaning.
The punishment of the Father of all fathers is not merely correction: it is correction that improves, changes, transforms for the better.
Our God punishes with an objective in view, not as an end in itself!
There are dual aspects to our Father’s Realm as shown in the following…
Tamiym/ 'ymt
To be consumed, destroyed, exhausted and spent, but also to be finished and made sound.
Kalal
Links destruction, being spent, exhausted, as well as to be finished and made sound.
Tamam, the root word of Tamiym
To be finished, complete, summed up, made whole: linked with to be consumed, exhausted, spent and destroyed.
Shalam/ ~IX
Destruction, has the scope of being finished and ended, made good or whole, & being made sound, coupled with to be restored.
Shebar, rooted in Shabar
Breakout, and being brought to birth; and underlying new birth and breakout? To be crushed and broken. Again there is dual meaning in our Lord’s words of destruction and re-creation.
Chalowph
Destruction rooted in being altered, renewed, changed, and to sprout again. It should also be noted that this is not just change, but change for the better.
"In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him." -C.S. Lewis
way 2 go
Well-known member
I think their god is on MDMA\ ecstasy loves everyone and lacks good judgement