The myth of the "early church"

Derf

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There are many different "salvation's" in the Bible.

To the Jews, salvation was the kingdom. That's why Peter spoke of salvation being YET FUTURE (long after Jesus' death and resurrection).

1Pet 1:5 (AKJV/PCE)​
(1:5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. ​

That future salvation also included Israel being SAVED from their enemies.

Luke 1:68-80 (AKJV/PCE)​
(1:68) Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, (1:69) And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; (1:70) As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: (1:71) That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; (1:72) To perform the mercy [promised] to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; (1:73) The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, (1:74) That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, (1:75) In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. (1:76) And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; (1:77) To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, (1:78) Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, (1:79) To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. (1:80) And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.​

The gospel of the kingdom was simply the KINGDOM AT HAND (i.e., imminent). Entering that kingdom required many things, including: keeping the law (Matt 28:19-20); persevering to the end of the tribulation (Matt 10:22, 24:13); waiting for the Son of man's physical return (Matt 10:23, Acts 1:11); etc. etc. etc.
That was a good answer--thank you!

Despite the salvation of the Jews being thought of as salvation from physical enemies, the enemy Christ defeated in the resurrection, and it will be defeated finally for all believers at His return. Paul gave us much of this, like here:
1 Corinthians 15:54 LSB — But when this corruptible puts on the incorruptible, and this mortal puts on immortality, then will come about the word that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

but did the 12 agree? Like here:
Matthew 4:16 KJV — The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

And here:
1 John 3:14 KJV — We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
 
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JudgeRightly

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That was a good answer--thank you!

Despite the salvation of the Jews being thought of as salvation from physical enemies, the enemy Christmas

Can we at least get to Thanksgiving first? XD

defeated in the resurrection, and it will be defeated finally for all believers at His return. Paul gave us much of this, like here:
1 Corinthians 15:54 LSB — But when this corruptible puts on the incorruptible, and this mortal puts on immortality, then will come about the word that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

but did the 12 agree? Like here:
Matthew 4:16 KJV — The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

And here:
1 John 3:14 KJV — We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

You realize that Matthew 4 is written about events that occurred long before Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, and that 1 Corinthians was written long before 1 John was written... Right?
 

Derf

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Can we at least get to Thanksgiving first? XD
You're funny. My spell checker is not funny. It's an Android phone, and older one that I'm not able to update some of the apps anymore. But it refuses to use "Christ" or "Jesus" as an option, even when I spell them correctly. I can add the words during a session, and then it's ok for the rest of the session, but the next time it replaces "Christ" with Christmas and Jesus with Jessup, or something like that.
 

JudgeRightly

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You're funny. My spell checker is not funny. It's an Android phone, and older one that I'm not able to update some of the apps anymore. But it refuses to use "Christ" or "Jesus" as an option, even when I spell them correctly. I can add the words during a session, and then it's ok for the rest of the session, but the next time it replaces "Christ" with Christmas and Jesus with Jessup, or something like that.

You can still sideload apps, yes?
 

Derf

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You realize that Matthew 4 is written about events that occurred long before Paul wrote 1 Corinthians,
Yes, but realize the significance of a prophecy quoted by Matthew for a narrative that occurred a decent amount of time before Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, probably written after 1st Corinthians (according to some scholars, it between 45 and 55 AD, some say as late as 90 AD). This shows continuity of the message from prophecy to fulfillment to historical record, bookending Paul's letter.
and that 1 Corinthians was written long before 1 John was written... Right?
Can you explain the significance you see in that? If John was only writing to Jews (which I doubt), and he was still speaking of the kingdom gospel (which is the only reason he would still be writing to Jews only, imho), then it is very significant to the conversation about whether Paul and John thought the same thing of what the gospel (and therefore the early church) was about.
 

JudgeRightly

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Yes, but only older versions, usually, and I don't have a lot of storage for apps.
What do you recommend?

Okay, so, look up "install with options" and "Shizuku," and apkmirror.com. You may be able to install newer apps on the device...

I personally use an abandonware keyboard on the latest version of android, which android refused to let me install, that IWO and shizuku let me get around.

An llm should be able walk you through the process.

As for what I use: Minuum

Depending on what version of android you have, you may just be able to sideload it normally.

Dm me if you need help.
 

JudgeRightly

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Yes, but realize the significance of a prophecy quoted by Matthew for a narrative that occurred a decent amount of time before Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, probably written after 1st Corinthians (according to some scholars, it between 45 and 55 AD, some say as late as 90 AD). This shows continuity of the message from prophecy to fulfillment to historical record, bookending Paul's letter.

I'm not seeing how it bookends Paul's letter. (Maybe you're seeing something I'm not?)

Matthew 4:15-16 is quoting Isaiah 9:1-2, and Matthew explicitly says that what happened was in fulfillment of what Isaiah had prophesied.

So the sequence is:

Isaiah prophesied it → Christ fulfilled it during His earthly ministry → Matthew later recorded the fulfillment.

Matthew possibly writing his account after Paul wrote 1 Corinthians doesn't move the event itself to after Paul's revelation, nor does it make Paul's revelation part of the same prophetic program.

The continuity there is between Isaiah's prophecy and its fulfillment in Christ's earthly ministry.

Can you explain the significance you see in that?

That's what I'm asking you.

Matthew 4 is talking about people sitting in darkness seeing a great light.

1 Corinthians 15:54 is talking about the resurrection, when mortality puts on immortality and "Death is swallowed up in victory."

1 John 3:14 says, "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren."

They all use death/life imagery, but I'm not seeing how that establishes that Matthew, Paul, and John were therefore teaching the same gospel or addressing the same dispensation.

What specifically do you see connecting those passages beyond the imagery?

If John was only writing to Jews (which I doubt),

Why do you doubt it?

Galatians 2 explicitly tells us that John was one of those whose ministry was to the circumcision:

and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians 2:9&version=NKJV

And John's epistles fit that assignment.

First John repeatedly addresses his readers as "little children," while 2 John is addressed "To the elect lady and her children."

That fits the prophetic presentation of Israel as a woman, wife, mother, or daughter, and Israelites as her children.

I wouldn't make the case from "little children" alone, since Paul does use similar familial language in Galatians 4:19. But taken together with "the elect lady and her children," John's emphasis on the commandments, "the last hour," Antichrist, what they had heard "from the beginning," and especially the explicit agreement in Galatians 2 that John would go to the circumcision, the audience seems pretty clear.

If John ceased ministering to the circumcision and instead became an apostle to the Body of Christ, where does Scripture tell us that happened?

and he was still speaking of the kingdom gospel (which is the only reason he would still be writing to Jews only, imho),

And John's epistles are entirely consistent with his continuing in that kingdom ministry, as explained below.

then it is very significant to the conversation about whether Paul and John thought the same thing of what the gospel (and therefore the early church) was about.

But if John was still speaking of the kingdom gospel and still writing to the circumcision, that supports the distinction I'm making.

The Twelve were already preaching the gospel of the kingdom in Luke 9:1-6.

Yet in Luke 18:31-34, when Christ told them plainly that He would be killed and rise again, they did not understand what He was telling them.

So the gospel they were preaching in Luke 9 could not have been Christ's death, burial, and resurrection for our sins, because they didn't yet understand that He was going to die and rise again.

Paul, on the other hand, explicitly identifies Christ's death for our sins, burial, and resurrection as the gospel he preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

So John continuing in the kingdom gospel after Paul's ministry began doesn't demonstrate that Paul and John were preaching the same thing.

It demonstrates that John's kingdom ministry to the circumcision continued alongside Paul's distinct ministry to the Gentiles.
 

Derf

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So the 12 aren't going unto all the world as told in Matthew 28? Which is it?
They aren't now. Are you asking whether they ever did? Scripture doesn't say one way or another, but it seems very unlikely that they stayed in Jerusalem and Judea as it was being besieged and falling, since Christ had told them to leave
Matthew 24:16 KJV – Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.

Peter, according to tradition, died prior to the fall of Jerusalem...in Rome. Assuming the tradition is true, how did he get there if wasn't going to at least some of the world?

Why did some of the Corinthians consider Peter to be one of those they considered to follow rather than Paul or Apollos?

Now, I'm of the opinion that Paul was Christ's official replacement for Judas, and therefore even if the rest never left Jerusalem, Paul fulfilled the commission's injunction by actually going to "all the world".

Back to tradition, Thomas was thought to have gone to India, but other traditions say he went to Silicia. John is almost universally acknowledged to have gone to Asia Minor and to have died in Ephesus. He tells us that he was on the island of Patmos when he received the revelation of Revelation. Patmos is east of Asia Minor.

It would be a fantastic thing if all of the apostles had as good a chronicler as Luke was for Paul, but we don't have that.
 

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They aren't now. Are you asking whether they ever did? Scripture doesn't say one way or another, but it seems very unlikely that they stayed in Jerusalem and Judea as it was being besieged and falling, since Christ had told them to leave
Matthew 24:16 KJV – Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.
That is just about the best example of CHERRY-PICKING a verse OUT OF CONTEXT that anyone will ever see. Note the THEN as the first word of your CHERRY. THEN means that you CANNOT ignore what came before!

Read the verse right BEFORE your fib.

Matt 24:15-16 (AKJV/PCE)​
(24:15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (24:16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:​
​
So there was a CONDITION to the fleeing and that CONDITION was NEVER MET.
Peter, according to tradition, died prior to the fall of Jerusalem...in Rome. Assuming the tradition is true, how did he get there if wasn't going to at least some of the world?
Why would we want to assume a FALSE tradition. Only because you think that a falsehood can help your case.
Now, I'm of the opinion that Paul was Christ's official replacement for Judas,
Yes, that's been a BIG mistake of yours which we have clearly and completely demolished many times over.
and therefore even if the rest never left Jerusalem, Paul fulfilled the commission's injunction by actually going to "all the world".
That is idiotic and comes from your mistaken obsession with making Paul #12 instead of what he really is... that ONE other different apostle given a NEW revelation from God.

If Paul really was #12, there is no way that he would have agreed to the Gal 2 division.

That's just crazy!
Back to tradition,
No thanks. That's just garbage.
It would be a fantastic thing if all of the apostles had as good a chronicler as Luke was for Paul, but we don't have that.
Have you ever noticed that Luke chronicled the twelve for many years, but then SWITCHED to Paul and his helpers, Mid-Acts (16).

https://theologyonline.com/threads/luke-started-accompanying-paul-beginning-in-acts-16.52524/
 
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Derf

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It most certainly does. Going into all the world when they are scattered abroad doesn't mean they are going to the gentiles.
So you are saying the 12 (not including Paul) were going into all the world, but not going to Gentiles? I'm struggling to understand the point you are trying to make. Here's what you started with:
So the 12 aren't going unto all the world as told in Matthew 28? Which is it?
I gave a response that they did indeed go out into the world, i.e., they did not stay in Judea. You seem to be agreeing with me in a disagreeing kind of way, so maybe I didn't understand your point.
 

JudgeRightly

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So you are saying the 12 (not including Paul) were going into all the world, but not going to Gentiles? I'm struggling to understand the point you are trying to make. Here's what you started with:

I gave a response that they did indeed go out into the world, i.e., they did not stay in Judea. You seem to be agreeing with me in a disagreeing kind of way, so maybe I didn't understand your point.

Unto, not into.
 

Nick M

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So you are saying the 12 (not including Paul) were going into all the world, but not going to Gentiles?
That is what the scripture says. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded it. Peter had to be given a special vision to corroborate what Paul was doing and his message. And then the those that believe confronted Peter. They knew he ate with them. He isn't to go near them, as he stated. Aside from the new revelation given to him.
 

Nick M

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1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion (Jews scattered) in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

By the way, does this sound like what Paul says all throughout his letters?

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [b]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)

21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


How about John's letters? He insists you have sin. Is that what Paul says? How about Jude?

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.



James?

1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,

To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad:

Greetings.


They are not going to gentiles, and are not preaching grace. Peter does bring up the work by the cross. They need faith plus works. It is what the scripture says. You catholics will perish because you reject grace and accept this.
 

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They are not going to gentiles, and are not preaching grace.
Acts 11:19 (AKJV/PCE)​
(11:19) ¶ Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. ​
 
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