May I ask...

[Hoping]

This is well-stated, Hoping, and seems to be the crux of James' letter.

Especially in light of James 4:17..."Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."
How can a man say he has faith but leave others without their needed items?
Man can say he has faith 24/7, but without a manifestation of that faith, it is just dead words.

 

[Derf]

Yeah, I read it.
Baptiso (baptize) can have lots of usages,
But in the context of "in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins", it is a full immersion. (Acts 2:38)

Which is a rabbit trail.

 

[Hoping]

Which is a rabbit trail.

I don't consider commandments of the Lord's apostles as rabbit trails.

 

[Derf]

I don't consider commandments of the Lord's apostles as rabbit trails.

Which is another rabbit trail.

 

[way 2 go]

What is written is not hard to interpret.

no works of any kind.
(Ephesians 2:8-10) [8] For by grace are all of you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10]

Amen to tht.
The works of the Law cannot save a man.

no , no works of any kind

The actions of faith can though.
Hear, believe, obey.

sounds like the law
(Romans 2:13) For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified

Why would you?

good question , why are you humble boasting of your works ?

I would that your "boasted" of what God accomplishes for the obedeint by their obedience.

no thanks

I understand your POV, and am seeking what is the profit of its acceptance.

you don't understand Mid Acts Dispensation

Salvation by the Law.

which was salvation by heritage

The works provved the faith.

no works are works ,Pharisees loved works had no faith

Faith is what God is looking for and it's why salvation is not availabe after death

(Romans 4:1-8) [1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, has found? [2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory; but not before God. [3] For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. [6] Even as David also describes the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes righteousness without works, [7] Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. [8] Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

"Faith the noun" is a dead faith.
Written on paper but without power.

no . (Ephesians 2:8) For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
the gift is Faith , noun

you don't understand Mid Acts Dispensation

Amen to that.
I am glad we can prove tht faith every single day.

rejoicing in your works salvation ,

If Abe' had refused to sacrifice his boy, we would not be discussiing his faith right now.
Disobedience is the antithesis of faith.

Abraham was made righteous by faith
(Galatians 3:6) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

(Romans 3:23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

that is where we diverge.
We can find lots of Paul's fights against circumcision and dietary rules, but we will never find him arguing against having faith, or getting water baptized in the name of the Lord for the remssion of sins, or receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, or remaining faithful until the end.

you don't understand Mid Acts Dispensation
and what the calling of of Paul changed

I see no corrolation between the two events.

that is the problem , you do not rightly divide the word

God's vision to Peter changed "that".

you think it was just an arbitrary change , that's the problem

The gospel doesn't ever change in regard to the audience.
Gospel...Jesus was killed for our sins and raised from the dead three days after.
There may be differences of administration, and diversities of operation, but the gospel remains unchangeable.

The Plot (an overview of the Bible) | KGOV.com

kgov.com

.
.

If you are a Christian, serving one another should be bringing you great joy instead of the fear of "works".

humble boasting again.

NO?
So ignoring the needy and cheating on ones taxes does not make one unrighteous?
Wow....

you have works salvation
(Romans 3:23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

If you do the things of Eph 4:32, you will be righteous.
Only the righteous do those things.
If you don't do them, you will be unrighteous.

forgiven is past tense but again you don't understand Mid Acts Dispensation

(Ephesians 4:32) And be all of you kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you.

Faith on paper is dead.
Faith in action is alive.

what is faith on paper , are you calling Gods gift garbage ?

(Ephesians 2:8) For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,

 

[Hoping]

no works of any kind.
(Ephesians 2:8-10) [8] For by grace are all of you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10]

I disagree, as Paul consistently refers to the works of the Law.
"Hearing" and "believing" would be contrary to salvation, otherwise.
As would repentance from sins and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
If your POV were correct, why would Paul write Eph 4:17-32 ?
All of those things could be considered as "work".
Paul's fight was against circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, etc.

no , no works of any kind
sounds like the law
(Romans 2:13) For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified

Are you preaching "hearing" while I am "doing"?
And not the doing of 400+ commandments either.
Love God with all your heart, soul, strength, and might...and love your neighbor as you love yourself.

good question , why are you humble boasting of your works ?

What works do you refer to?
Obedience to God, or to Jesus, or to the apostles?
What will disobedience result in?

no thanks

Glorifying God for what He has enabled you to do doesn't sit well with you?

you don't understand Mid Acts Dispensation

I don't see the draw of it.

which was salvation by heritage

Heritage to the Law of Moss?

no works are works ,Pharisees loved works had no faith

If they did have faith, their works would have been righteous.

Faith is what God is looking for and it's why salvation is not available after death

I agree with that.
But men need to know that God is behind what they have faith in.
OT men had faith that the Law would provide their salvation.
But salvation without the Law is now available.
It still requires our faith, however.
And faith can allow us to the Lord's will all of our remaining lives.

(Romans 4:1-8) [1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, has found? [2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory; but not before God. [3] For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. [6] Even as David also describes the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes righteousness without works, [7] Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. [8] Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Amen to that.

no . (Ephesians 2:8) For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
the gift is Faith , noun

Until that "faith" is translated into action, it is just a word on paper.

you don't understand Mid Acts Dispensation

I don't see the draw.

rejoicing in your works salvation ,

Rejoicing in what God has produced in me through faith

Abraham was made righteous by faith
(Galatians 3:6) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Yes, but without his actions, his faith would have been just a guise for disobedience.

(Romans 3:23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Did Jesus sin?
No, so we know the verses Paul cited from the OT were generalities and not fact.
I sure am glad Paul added Rom 3:21-22..."But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:"
That righteousness of God can be ours, but not if we just sit on our hands.

you don't understand Mid Acts Dispensation
and what the calling of of Paul changed

The "calling of Paul" freed us from circumcision, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, tithing, and dietary rules, etc...to be saved.

that is the problem , you do not rightly divide the word

I see the word through the eyes of one who has the righteousness of God through faith.

you think it was just an arbitrary change , that's the problem

Care to elaborate?

humble boasting again.

I'll repeat it..."If you are a Christian, serving one another should be bringing you great joy instead of fear of "working."
Where is your joy?

you have works salvation

I thank God for equipping me to love Him above all else and my neighbor as myself.
If you want to look down on the gift Jesus died to provide us, so be it.

(Romans 3:23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

See above.

forgiven is past tense but again you don't understand Mid Acts Dispensation

Forgiveness is out there, for all who will submit to God.

(Ephesians 4:32) And be all of you kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you.

Don't you consider being kind to one another, being tender hearted, and forgiving as "works"?

what is faith on paper , are you calling Gods gift garbage ?

It is an English word, a noun.
Put into action, though, it is the manifestation of the Creator of every molecule that has ever been.

(Ephesians 2:8) For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,

Faith must be used to be identified.

 

[Derf]

Faith must be used to be identified.

Or at least identifiable. Whether anyone notices or not, we still should put faith into practice.

 

[Hoping]

Or at least identifiable. Whether anyone notices or not, we still should put faith into practice.

Your words reflect those of James.

 

[way 2 go]

I disagree, as Paul consistently refers to the works of the Law.
"Hearing" and "believing" would be contrary to salvation, otherwise.
As would repentance from sins and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
If your POV were correct, why would Paul write Eph 4:17-32 ?
All of those things could be considered as "work".
Paul's fight was against circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, etc.

no

Are you preaching "hearing"

no . (Ephesians 2:8) For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
the gift is Faith , noun

while I am "doing"?

humble boast ?

And not the doing of 400+ commandments either.
Love God with all your heart, soul, strength, and might...and love your neighbor as you love yourself.

(Matthew 22:40) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

What will disobedience result in?

depends on the dispensation

Glorifying God for what He has enabled you to do doesn't sit well with you?

no . boasting about works

Heritage to the Law of Moss?

Jews were born saved and had to keep the law to stay saved

If they did have faith, their works would have been righteous.

and what would that add to them ?

I agree with that.
But men need to know that God is behind what they have faith in.

?

OT men had faith that the Law would provide their salvation.

no , faith in God and If the Jews didn't keep the law they would be cut off
grace + law

Moses didn't circumcise his son

Exo 4:24 At a lodging place on the way the LORD met him{Moses} and sought to put him to death.
Exo 4:25 Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin and touched Moses' feet with it and said, "Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me!"




Num 15:29 You shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the people of Israel and for the stranger who sojourns among them.
Num 15:30 But the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native or a sojourner, reviles the LORD, and that person shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 Because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken his commandment, that person shall be utterly cut off; his iniquity shall be on him."

But salvation without the Law is now available.

when did salvation without the Law happen ?

It still requires our faith, however.

accepting God's gift of faith
(Ephesians 2:8) For by grace are all of you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Until that "faith" is translated into action, it is just a word on paper.

no

so James says "Abraham our father justified by works" so
according to James Abraham had a reason to boast but
Paul quotes Gen 15:6 "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." so no reason to boast

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

righteousness by faith not by works

Rom 4:20 No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,
Rom 4:21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
Rom 4:22 That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:23 But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone,
Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

I don't see the draw.

salvation employment or family

you:
employment
you have faith in the employer God
you receive the job by grace (did not earn it)
but you have to do works to keep the job (salvation)


Mid Acts Dispensation:
family
you have faith in God
you receive adoption by grace
you receive Christ righteousness which covers all your sins
family its permanent

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

Yes, but without his actions, his faith would have been just a guise for disobedience.

no
(Galatians 4:25-31) child of the free or child of the slave


Paul quotes Gen 15:6 we are children of the promise by faith alone

Abram

1st covenant
promise
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

blood shed
Gen 15:9 He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon."
Gen 15:10 And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half.

abram was asleep (faith only)
Gen 15:12 As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him.

God confirmed the covenant
Gen 15:17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces


-------------
Gen 16:16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram.
--------------

need 2nd covenant

promise


Gen 17:5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 17:6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.

bloodshed and covenant confirmed each time the
work of circumcision is done.

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.

That righteousness of God can be ours, but not if we just sit on our hands.

you think you can earn salvation

The "calling of Paul" freed us from circumcision, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, tithing, and dietary rules, etc...to be saved.

it is interesting that Jesus would have a new apostle
after he came and fulfilled all that he came to do
and that apostle would say follow me
which no other apostle ever said

1Co 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
did any of the 12 say this ?

Care to elaborate?

Israel was cut off.

Act_8:3 But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison

Rom 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
Rom 11:14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

I'll repeat it..."If you are a Christian, serving one another should be bringing you great joy instead of fear of "working."
Where is your joy?

can you lose your salvation ?

Faith must be used to be identified.

are you suggesting Jesus can't identify his people ?

 

[Hoping]

no

No...what?

no . (Ephesians 2:8) For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
the gift is Faith , noun

Prove you have faith.

humble boast ?

A question.

(Matthew 22:40) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

Amen.

depends on the dispensation

So the law and prophets don't hang on the love of God and neighbor in some dispensations?
That sounds awful.

no . boasting about works

Which work of the Law are you referring to?

Jews were born saved and had to keep the law to stay saved

Imagine that?
Saved before the day of judgement !

and what would that add to them ?

Nothing, as the light the converted emit "adds" only to the glory of God.

?

We can still tell the seed by its fruit.

no , faith in God and If the Jews didn't keep the law they would be cut off
grace + law

The Jews didn't have faith that the Law would provide their salvation?
Interesting concept.

Moses didn't circumcise his son
Exo 4:24 At a lodging place on the way the LORD met him{Moses} and sought to put him to death.
Exo 4:25 Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin and touched Moses' feet with it and said, "Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me!"

That event occurred before there was a Law of Moses.

when did salvation without the Law happen

Salvation without the Law happened on the day Jesus was raised from the dead.
He was the High Priest from that point.

accepting God's gift of faith
(Ephesians 2:8) For by grace are all of you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I am glad you can see it is something we must do; often mistakenly construed as "work".

no

Really?
If we slap the "faith" label on Russia are will of them be saved on the last day?
Faith without action, is just a word.

so James says "Abraham our father justified by works" so
according to James Abraham had a reason to boast but
Paul quotes Gen 15:6 "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." so no reason to boast

Why would anyone boast about what God enables them to do?
The glory is God's.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."
righteousness by faith not by works

Works by faith, instead of sitting on their hands and watching.

salvation employment or family

i don't understand what that means.

you:
employment
you have faith in the employer God
you receive the job by grace (did not earn it)
but you have to do works to keep the job (salvation)

More like, I have the grace to help my neighbors, and remain faithful until the end.

Mid Acts Dispensation:
family
you have faith in God
you receive adoption by grace
you receive Christ righteousness which covers all your sins
family its permanent

It is permanent, until you commit adultery or steal from work.
That manifests one is still a child of the devil, and their repentance from sin was a lie to God.

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

So true, and we should be thankful for the wqrning.

Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

Glory be to God !

no

How do you know he was faithful?

(Galatians 4:25-31) child of the free or child of the slave

More misconstrued "work"?
On top of hearing, and believing, now we have to pick whose child we are?

Paul quotes Gen 15:6 we are children of the promise by faith alone

Without faith we are as powerless as the OT Jews were to be righteous.
The only alternative being unrighteous.

Abram
1st covenant
promise
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
blood shed
Gen 15:9 He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon."
Gen 15:10 And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half.
abram was asleep (faith only)
Gen 15:12 As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him.
God confirmed the covenant
Gen 15:17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces
en 16:16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram.
need 2nd covenant
promise
Gen 17:5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
Gen 17:6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.
bloodshed and covenant confirmed each time the
work of circumcision is done.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.

Not sure what that was all about ?

you think you can earn salvation

What I think is that God has provided all we need to be found in the book of life on the day of judgement.
If we neglect that which He has provided, we will be lost.

it is interesting that Jesus would have a new apostle
after he came and fulfilled all that he came to do
and that apostle would say follow me
which no other apostle ever said

Amen to that, but don't forget that Paul added..."as I follow Christ".

1Co 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

There you go !
A man who didn't say "my faith has already saved me" !

did any of the 12 say this ?

Why would they need to?
I don't think it is written in the KJV of the bible, but does that rule out their ever saying it?
The apostles and their disciples had all witnessed what happened to the Lord, and wanted nothing to do with the impending wrath to come.

Israel was cut off.

Unbelieving Israel was certainly cut off.

Act_8:3 But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison
Rom 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
Rom 11:14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

OK .

can you lose your salvation ?

Salvation won't be granted until your name is found in the book of life.
"Can you lose your conversion?"... would be a better question.
I have seen plenty of men and women turn from their conversion, and from their love of Christ.

are you suggesting Jesus can't identify his people ?

Not for a second.
Jesus' people are the ones using His grace to manifest His life and death on earth now.
Those sitting on their hands in fear...not so much.

 

[steko]

Whew!!!

 

[way 2 go]

Prove you have faith.

Jesus Christ is Lord
(Romans 10:9) Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved

So the law and prophets don't hang on the love of God and neighbor in some dispensations?

who said that ?

That sounds awful.

keeping the law does sound awful , good thing we are under grace

Which work of the Law are you referring to?

none

Imagine that?
Saved before the day of judgement !

that's another thread


do you not know you're judged the moment you die ?
(II Corinthians 5:8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

We can still tell the seed by its fruit.

so you can go into a mall and pick out the Christians by a few minutes of observation ?

The Jews didn't have faith that the Law would provide their salvation?
Interesting concept.

Heritage and the law
David had Faith in God

you can add grace to a covenant of law
but you can't add law to a covenant of grace

That event occurred before there was a Law of Moses.

Yet God was still going to kill Moses for not circumcising his son

Salvation without the Law happened on the day Jesus was raised from the dead.
He was the High Priest from that point.

or at the time of Paul's dispensation
(Ephesians 3:1-2) [1] For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, [2] If you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

I am glad you can see it is something we must do; often mistakenly construed as "work".

accepting God's gift of faith is not a work

Really?
If we slap the "faith" label on Russia are will of them be saved on the last day?
Faith without action, is just a word.

your labeling doesn't determine anything
sorry you disagree with righteousness by faith alone

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

It is permanent, until you commit adultery or steal from work.
That manifests one is still a child of the devil, and their repentance from sin was a lie to God.

so do you have to keep the whole law or just those 2 laws to stay saved ?

Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
Glory be to God !

sons don't get kicked out of the family for disobedience

employers terminate employees

your Jesus resembles an employer

How do you know he was faithful?

Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Without faith we are as powerless as the OT Jews were to be righteous.
The only alternative being unrighteous.

Not sure what that was all about ?

1st covenant by faith alone , like we have now
2nd covenant work , circumcision

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.

What I think is that God has provided all we need to be found in the book of life on the day of judgement.
If we neglect that which He has provided, we will be lost.

Amen to that, but don't forget that Paul added..."as I follow Christ".

There you go !
A man who didn't say "my faith has already saved me" !

(II Corinthians 5:8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1Co 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Why would they need to?

Paul does , can you tell us why ?

Unbelieving Israel was certainly cut off.

so Israel was cut off

Salvation won't be granted until your name is found in the book of life.
"Can you lose your conversion?"... would be a better question.
I have seen plenty of men and women turn from their conversion, and from their love of Christ.

so works mean nothing

Jesus' people are the ones using His grace to manifest His life and death on earth now.
Those sitting on their hands in fear...not so much.

you just said :
"I have seen plenty of men and women turn from their conversion, and from their love of Christ."

Good thing God looks on the heart
(Galatians 4:6) And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

 

[Hoping]

Jesus Christ is Lord
(Romans 10:9) Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved

Manifest that confession.

who said that ?

Jesus, (Matt 22:40)

keeping the law does sound awful , good thing we are under grace

I agree, though you have changed the subject.

none

You referred to a work but now don't refer to a work of the Law?
You've lost me.

that's another thread
do you not know you're judged the moment you die ?
(II Corinthians 5:8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

That verse doesn't prove what you say.

so you can go into a mall and pick out the Christians by a few minutes of observation ?

Can't you?

Heritage and the law
David had Faith in God

Agreed.

you can add grace to a covenant of law
but you can't add law to a covenant of grace

God did, as grace was around since Noah, but Law didn't come around until Moses.

Yet God was still going to kill Moses for not circumcising his son

Yes, in spite of there being no Law of Moses.

or at the time of Paul's dispensation
(Ephesians 3:1-2) [1] For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, [2] If you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Are you saying that salvation without the Law did NOT happen when Jesus was raised from the dead?
Yikes, the 3000 converts baptized into Christ on the day of Pentecost will be surprised.
I don't think they were still depending on any Law for their salvation.

accepting God's gift of faith is not a work

Agreed, it is an action and not a work of the Law of Moses.
Neither is the acceptance of the gift of repentance from sin.
Or baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Or receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Thanks be to God !

your labeling doesn't determine anything
sorry you disagree with righteousness by faith alone

You are so correct about labeling determining nothing.
Labeling someone as faithful is a loot point.
Their actions will determine their faithfulness.

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Amen to that.
Belief doesn't leave room for disobedience or doubt.

so do you have to keep the whole law or just those 2 laws to stay saved ?

The law of Christ, or, the law of liberty, is to love God with all your heart, strength, soul, and mind, and to love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Doing that will encompass forgoing adultery, murder, and the rest of the unrighteous acts Paul lists in Gal 5 and Eph 5.
And the ones he didn't spell out, like drug abuse or child molesting.

sons don't get kicked out of the family for disobedience

Sons don't disobey God their Father.

employers terminate employees
your Jesus resembles an employer

He is the "Boss".
You do love Him...right?

Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

How do you know Abe' was faithful?
Are not his faithful actions written of?

1st covenant by faith alone , like we have now
2nd covenant work , circumcision

I think you got the order mixed up, plus the definition of the present day covenant we have today.
"Faith alone" is a misnomer.
The devils believe.

(II Corinthians 5:8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I hope for that day too.

Paul does , can you tell us why ?

Be a follower of those who follow Christ in order to be found in the book of life on the day of judgement.

so Israel was cut off

Unbelieving Israel was cut off.

so works mean nothing

What works do you refer to?
Helping the old lady across the street?
Stealing from the blind?

you just said :
"I have seen plenty of men and women turn from their conversion, and from their love of Christ."

Yes, I did...?

Good thing God looks on the heart
(Galatians 4:6) And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Yes, He sees the pure hearts of the converted, but also the black hearts of the traitors.

 

[JudgeRightly]

God did, as grace was around since Noah, but Law didn't come around until Moses.

The point was that grace can be added to law, and it will remain law, but adding law to grace turns it into law.

Sons don't disobey God their Father.

Sometimes they do.

How do you know Abe' was faithful?

The Bible tells us he was. Do you not believe the Bible?

Are not his faithful actions written of?

What part of the scriptures do you not understand?

*What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
For if Abraham was justified by works, (JR: the "actions" you speak of, Hoping) he has something to boast about, but not before God.
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. - Romans 4:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:1-4&version=NKJV*

The faithful actions of Abraham came AFTER Abraham's faith in God, and so that means that the works are not necessarily part of what is required to be counted as righteous. This is the point Paul is making in Romans 4.

I think you got the order mixed up, plus the definition of the present day covenant we have today.

What order does the Bible have it in?

When is Abraham shown to have faith?

When is Abraham shown to do works?

Genesis 15 (covenant of faith) comes before Genesis 17 (covenant of works).

Circumcision is a synecdoche of the law, and is synonymous with it.

Circumcision is the literal cutting off of the flesh.
The law is the figurative cutting off of the flesh.

Abraham was circumcised AFTER he had faith, not before.

This tells us that faith is separate from works.

The moment you add the law, however, faith becomes a work, and not grace.

"Faith alone" is a misnomer.

Only because people don't understand what it's talking about.

"Faith alone" means "faith without works TO BE SAVED."

Not, "faith without any works ever."

If a staunch atheist for his entire life rejects God, and then on his deathbed, accepts Christ as His Savior, and then dies, he still goes to heaven, because of his faith in God.

He doesn't go to Hell because he had no works.

The devils believe.

The devils are not able to get saved, so attempting to use this to support your position doesn't work.

 

[Hoping]

The point was that grace can be added to law, and it will remain law, but adding law to grace turns it into law.

Double talk.

Sometimes they do.

Just as often as an apple seed can bring forth pumpkins.
The seed determines the fruit.

The Bible tells us he was. Do you not believe the Bible?

How did "they" know Abe' was faithful?
By his obedience to God.

What part of the scriptures do you not understand?

Chronologically or according to height?

*What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
For if Abraham was justified by works, (JR: the "actions" you speak of, Hoping) he has something to boast about, but not before God.
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. - Romans 4:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:1-4&version=NKJV*

Had Abe not obeyed God, his belief would have been as strong as the paper it was written of on.

The faithful actions of Abraham came AFTER Abraham's faith in God, and so that means that the works are not necessarily part of what is required to be counted as righteous. This is the point Paul is making in Romans 4.

Belief breeds action.

What order does the Bible have it in?
When is Abraham shown to have faith?
When is Abraham shown to do works?
Genesis 15 (covenant of faith) comes before Genesis 17 (covenant of works).
Circumcision is a synecdoche of the law, and is synonymous with it.
Circumcision is the literal cutting off of the flesh.
The law is the figurative cutting off of the flesh.
Abraham was circumcised AFTER he had faith, not before.
This tells us that faith is separate from works.
The moment you add the law, however, faith becomes a work, and not grace.

Isn't it nice that God gives us chances to illustrate our own faith/belief ?

Only because people don't understand what it's talking about.
"Faith alone" means "faith without works TO BE SAVED."

Without the works of the Mosaic Law.

Not, "faith without any works ever."

Careful there, or the anti works crowd will be on you.
They don't seem to be able to differentiate the works of the Mosaic Law from simple acts of faith...like Abraham's.

If a staunch atheist for his entire life rejects God, and then on his deathbed, accepts Christ as His Savior, and then dies, he still goes to heaven, because of his faith in God.
He doesn't go to Hell because he had no works.

It doesn't happen.
God allows men an entire life to get right with Him.
To demonize God for not "hearing" sinners on their death bed, is wrong.

The devils are not able to get saved, so attempting to use this to support your position doesn't work.

It worked just fine.
They know the truth, and believe it, but won't submit to God.
Like every other sinner, they must act on their faith in order to be saved.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Double talk.

No, that's how it works.

The moment you add law to grace, it becomes law.

This is why you don't understand the Bible.

Just as often as an apple seed can bring forth pumpkins.
The seed determines the fruit.

Moot, A) because the Bible describes a tree that brings forth a new fruit every month of the year, and B) because you're begging the question that Christians do not sin.

How did "they" know Abe' was faithful?
By his obedience to God.

Read Genesis 15 for me, please.

What did Abraham do in that chapter, regarding the covenant he made with God?

Chronologically or according to height?

Huh?

Had

Second time I've asked you.

Use the "+Quote" button to respond to posts, or be more careful when you highlight portions that you want to quote. You're quoting the end of the link of the verse that I posted, and it does this.

Had Abe not obeyed God, his belief would have been as strong as the paper it was written of on.

Supra.

"Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness" is as plain as can be.

You are rejecting it.

Belief breeds action.

Irrelevant.

We're talking about what is necessary to be saved.

Isn't it nice that God gives us chances to illustrate our own faith/belief ?

Rabbit trail.

Without the works of the Mosaic Law.

Stop putting words in my mouth, and stop adding to the scriptures.

We are saved by faith apart from works. PERIOD.

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” - Romans 4:5-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:5-8&version=NKJV

Careful there, or the anti works crowd will be on you.
They don't seem to be able to differentiate the works of the Mosaic Law from simple acts of faith...like Abraham's.

Ripping what I said out of context.

Typical, from someone who rips scriptures out of context to support his beliefs...

It doesn't happen.

1) Saying it doesn't make it so
2) How would you know? How many staunch athiests have you seen on their deathbeds who then pass away?
3) Of course you have to deny that it happens, because it runs counter to your entire worldview. If it were to happen, your entire worldview would be upended, because you believe that works must accompany faith for a person to get saved!

Bob Enyart's father acccepted Christ just before he died. Prior to that, he rejected God.

I'm not just making up the example. It does, in fact, happen.

But you have to reject reality, because your committment is to your beliefs, rather than truth.

God allows men an entire life to get right with Him.

And when someone, even someone on their deathbed, repents and turns to God, all the angels in Heaven rejoice!

To demonize God for not "hearing" sinners on their death bed, is wrong.

You're the one doing the demonizing! Can't you see that?!

In the example I gave above, the former atheist had ZERO WORKS OF ANY KIND, yet he still went to Heaven, because FAITH IN GOD is what is needed to be saved, not works.

THAT'S WHAT GRACE IS!!!!

You are trying to gatekeep heaven, of all things, by requiring that people "do" something!

You are no better than the men from James!

It worked just fine.
They know the truth, and believe it, but won't submit to God.
Like every other sinner, they must act on their faith in order to be saved.

Fallen angels cannot be saved. They will be cast into the lake of fire at the end of this age.

It's not a matter of "if they repent."

You said it yourself. They won't submit to God. Ever. Their fate (to borrow a Greek term) is sealed.

This is a topic for a different thread however, and your position is actually anti-biblical:

For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. - Hebrews 2:16-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews2:16-17&version=NKJV

Either cede the point, or take it to another thread.

 

[Derf]

The point was that grace can be added to law, and it will remain law, but adding law to grace turns it into law.

True. So why do you think James would be preaching a false gospel?

 

[JudgeRightly]

True. So why do you think James would be preaching a false gospel?

Why do you think that I think that? Because I don't.

 

[Hoping]

No, that's how it works.
The moment you add law to grace, it becomes law.

Yet God gave Moses the Law because he was graceful to them.

This is why you don't understand the Bible.

Whatever.

Moot, A) because the Bible describes a tree that brings forth a new fruit every month of the year, and B) because you're begging the question that Christians do not sin.

One is a simile.
One tree is real, while the other was a metaphor.
Hardly a fair comparison.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yet God gave Moses the Law because he was graceful to them.

Chapter, verse.

Whatever.

The tongue of the wise uses knowledge rightly, But the mouth of fools pours forth foolishness.A fool despises his father’s instruction, But he who receives correction is prudent.The lips of the wise disperse knowledge, But the heart of the fool does not do so.Harsh discipline is for him who forsakes the way, And he who hates correction will die.A scoffer does not love one who corrects him, Nor will he go to the wise.The heart of him who has understanding seeks knowledge, But the mouth of fools feeds on foolishness.Folly is joy to him who is destitute of discernment, But a man of understanding walks uprightly.A man has joy by the answer of his mouth, And a word spoken in due season, how good it is!The way of life winds upward for the wise, That he may turn away from hell below.The Lord will destroy the house of the proud, But He will establish the boundary of the widow.The heart of the righteous studies how to answer, But the mouth of the wicked pours forth evil.The ear that hears the rebukes of life Will abide among the wise.He who disdains instruction despises his own soul, But he who heeds rebuke gets understanding.The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom, And before honor is humility. - Proverbs 15:2,5,7,10,12,14,21,23-25,28,31-33 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs15:2,5,7,10,12,14,21,23-25,28,31-33&version=NKJV

One is a simile.
One tree is real, while the other was a metaphor.
Hardly a fair comparison.

Doesn't change the fact that you used a logical fallacy.