On the omniscience of God

[glorydaz]

If you're not going to read/respond to it, then you cannot say that am dodging or working around scripture.

Of course she can. She can say whatever she wants. Just ask Clete.

 

[Arial]

I know very well what it says. It says nothing about time being created. It says the heavens, the earth, and light, were created on the first day.

It says nothing at all about time being created.



Through reason.

You cannot create something that requires itself to be created.

Thus, "before time" is an oxymoron.



Again, "time" isn't an object. It cannot be created. Therefore, God did not create it, and thus, it isn't included in "everything God created," by definition.



Don't be coy.

If you're going to reference scripture and use it as your argument, you need to at least reference it.

With that out of the way...

Are you referring to Colossians 1:16-17?

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [e]principalities or [f]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Sorry, but that says nothing about time.



Duh.



We live, think, and move in the present.

We don't do so in the past, and the future doesn't exist yet.



Again, we don't live in the past, we don't think in the past, and we don't move in the past.

And again, the future doesn't exist yet.



I could make a comment on your mental health here as a result of that, but I won't, because it would probably be false.

I will say that just because you believed something at one point, and then rejected it and started believing something else, does not make the first thing you believed false by necessity.



That's what you did, regardless of your intent.



An argument from repetition is a logical fallacy.

Nothing more needs to be said. Address what has already been said, please.



The Bible shows God as in time, always.

It never shows Him outside of time.



I'm going to hold you to your assertion here. If the following verses do not say that God is outside of time, then you need to repent to God, for you are bearing false witness against Him by lying about His word.



13 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
For His name alone is exalted;
His glory is above the earth and heaven.
14 And He has exalted the horn of His people,
The praise of all His saints—
Of the children of Israel,
A people near to Him.

Praise the Lord!
Psalm 148:13-14

I see "above the earth and heaven," but I don't see "above" or "outside of time."

Do you?



God’s True Tabernacle
44 “Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as He appointed, instructing Moses to make it according to the pattern that he had seen, 45 which our fathers, having received it in turn, also brought with Joshua into the land possessed by the Gentiles, whom God drove out before the face of our fathers until the days of David, 46 who found favor before God and asked to find a dwelling for the God of Jacob. 47 But Solomon built Him a house.

48 “However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:

49 ‘Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
What house will you build for Me? says the Lord,
Or what is the place of My rest?
50 Has My hand not made all these things?’
Acts 7:44-50

Again, I'm seeing that Heaven is where God resides, and that Earth is His footstool.

I don't see anything that says that God is outside of time. Do you?



Prayer for Spiritual Wisdom
15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
Ephesians 1:15-22

There is nothing here that says that God is outside of time. Above prinicipalities, powers, mights, and dominions, and every name that is named, sure, but those are referring to governments and nations and tribes, and "names" refers to uses of authority.

As for "not only in this age, but also in that which is to come," that implies endless time, not timelessness...



Ephesians 4:
4 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

I see nothing in that verse that refers to time. You'll have to point it out and make the argument.

So far, you're 0 for 4.

On the other hand...

I have posted several posts with entire paragraphs of verses that show that God is "in time."



CLASSIC!

I recommend reading the very next verse, which literally explains what is meant by that.

Or go read post 307.



"Eternal" and "eternity" mean "endless time," not timelessness, unless you're starting with pagan Greek philosophy.

What the Bible does not say about God:

- is timeless
- in an eternal now
- without sequence or succession
- without moment or duration
- atemporal and outside of time
- not was, nor will be, but only is
- has no past
- has no future.

What the Bible DOES say about God:

is - and was - and is to come - whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting - before all things - forever and ever - the Ancient of Days - from before the ages of the ages - from ancient times - the everlasting God - He continues forever - from of old - remains forever - eternal - immortal - the Lord shall endure forever - Who lives forever - yesterday, today, and forever - God's years are without number - rock of ages/everlasting strength - manifest in His own time - waiting until - everlasting Father - alive forevermore - always lives - forever - continually - the eternal God - God’s years never end - from everlasting to everlasting - from that time forward, even forever - and of His kingdom there will be no end. (references here)



You can't enter something that by definition doesn't exist.



Addressed in post #382.



Which is a sequence. God the Son left Heaven, came to earth, preached, went to the cross, and ascended back into heaven, in that order.

Again, time is a precondition for actions. God left Heaven. Time is a precondition of that.



No such thing.

There is only one kind of logic, and that's logic.



It does well enough that even children can understand it. You, however, not so much, it seems.



So?



Again, so?



You just did.

"eternal"

That's human language.

Thanks for playing.



Blind faith isn't faith.

Nor is believing the irrational.



This makes no sense. It's irrational. You can't walk out of or function outside of something that, by definition, does not exist.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't know. We set our clocks by the sun. Not sure the point of all this. Probably just too darn dumb.

 

[Clete]

T

i have scripture that proves God created time

Liar. There is no such scripture. If you had anything close to that, you'd have already posted it.

do you have even one scripture proving that God did not create time.?
Not opinion or a philosophical belief but scripture that says God did not create time ?????

I just posted two separate things that actually do PROVE that God is not timeless and, more importantly, I don't have to prove a negative. The fact is that the whole creation event is recorded in some detail in Genesis where there isn't a single syllable about God having created time.

Trying to prohibit philosophy in a theological discussion is sort of funny, by the way, especially when you consider the fact that timeless eternity is an idea, not from the bible, but from Greek philosophy!

Col 1:16 - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,whether they be thrones, or dominions,or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 - And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Is time a part of all things, and if not do you have a scripture( not philosophical Mumbo jumbo) to support that belief ?

No! Time IS NOT a thing! It's an idea, Leatherneck!

Additionally, the science of physics tells us that time is a property resulting from the existence of matter.

Nope. Physics defines time as what a clock reads.

That's not a joke and that's not hyperbole. The "time" physicists are talking about is clocks not the sort of time you and I are talking about.

Trust me, you don't know what you're talking about here. If you want to understand the difference between time and whatever it is that physicist are talking about read this...

Summit Clock Experiment 2.0: Time is Absolute​

As such, time exists when matter exists.

This isn't even correct according to the physicists! It's time and SPACE that are tied together in Einstein's theories. Matter effects "spacetime" it does not create it or cause it to exist.

Incidentally, space, like time, is not a thing, it is an idea. It is a convention of language used to convey information about the size and location of objects, relative to other objects but space itself does not have its own ontological existence.

But God is not matter; God, in fact, created matter.

On this much, we agree. Well, mostly!

God the Son became a man and ascended into Heaven as a man with a glorified, but still physical, human body that He has to this day and forever more. To that degree, matter is a part of what God is. (So much for God being immutable!)

The bottom line is this: time began when God created the universe.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Did you mean to use the word "when" in that sentence? God created time WHEN...

How can you not see the inherent contradiction? Absolutely text book stolen concept fallacy.

Before that, God was simply existing. Since there was no matter, and because God does not change, time had no existence and therefore no meaning, no relation to Him.

BEFORE THAT!!!

Did you really just say that?!!!

You will never stop contradicting yourself in this manner so long as you persist in any discussion about existence outside of time. You won't stop because it is impossible not to do it. That's all the proof anyone should need that it's false.

And this brings us to the meaning of the word eternity. Eternity is a term used to express the concept of something that has no end and/or no beginning.

That's one definition. It isn't the only one. When talked about as though it were a place, it usually means "timelessness" but regardless of its definition, it has no bearing on whether time exists. In other words, the concept is not dependent upon the idea of timelessness. Eternity is simply an infinite length of time.

God has no beginning or end, but He cannot be wholly defined by eternity, especially as a measure of time.

Eternity has no rationally consistent meaning except as a measure of time. Again, eternity is an infinite length of time.

Eternity is one of God’s attributes,

Says who, you?

What do you even mean by that?

but, having created time, He is greater than time and exists outside of it.

Saying it doesn't make it so, Leatherneck!

Sorry, but stating your belief doesn't count as an argument. The bible does not teach that God created time and if it did, it would be proof that the bible is a fairy tale.

Thus, He exists outside of eternity. God is even beyond eternity. https://www.gotquestions.org/God-time.html

This is silly and demonstrates an ignorance of the meaning of the term in nearly any context. Your Augustinian friends, where you get all this timelessness nonsense from, would even disagree with you here.

How about transcendence, does God transcend transcendence?

That's effectively the sort of nonsense you just stated.

Clete

 

[Clete]

Do you seriously think that comment encourages discussion?

Did you really miss the point of the comment?

Anyone can believe anything!

I don't care what you believe, I care about what you can establish with scripture and plain reason.

Perhaps if you're really interested in getting your point across, you should stop asking stupid questions to begin with.

It's only a "stupid question" because there's no way for you to answer it that is consistent with your doctrine!

The question was rhetorical! Of course God would not have broken had Adam chosen to obey! But the whole concept of Adam's obedience is completely outside of anything that can fit into your ideas about who God is and how He works! According to you, Adam did what He did because God planned it that way from long before Adam ever existed!

You said, "God's plan was for Adam to obey His command." So you're calling God an idiot. Not too smart.

You're the only one I'm inclined to call an idiot.

What in the world are you even talking about anyway? How would God having plans based on Adam's obedience imply that God was an idiot? Why would God have planned (i.e. intended) to have Adam to do anything other than obey Him? Sure, God had a plan in place to deal with disobedience but that doesn't mean He wanted it to happen!

When you tell your child to do something do you expect them to obey you? Your expectation (i.e. your plan) might not work out but that doesn't mean you were idiotic for having the expectation. Why would it be different for God? Are you somehow smarter than God?

Clete

 

[Clete]

I forgot the other one that turns up in almost all his/her posts, sometimes in multiples as a defense "Saying it doesn't make it so."

I am the originator of "Saying it doesn't make it so." - at least on TOL, anyway.

It has been a staple in my posts for decades and it will continue to be so. Anyone else here who says it, is copying me (i.e. following my example).

 

[Leatherneck]

Liar. There is no such scripture. If you had anything close to that, you'd have already posted it.



I just posted two separate things that actually do PROVE that God is not timeless and, more importantly, I don't have to prove a negative. The fact is that the whole creation event is recorded in some detail in Genesis where there isn't a single syllable about God having created time.

Trying to prohibit philosophy in a theological discussion is sort of funny, by the way, especially when you consider the fact that timeless eternity is an idea, not from the bible, but from Greek philosophy!


No! Time IS NOT a thing! It's an idea, Leatherneck!


Nope. Physics defines time as what a clock reads.

That's not a joke and that's not hyperbole. The "time" physicists are talking about is clocks not the sort of time you and I are talking about.

Trust me, you don't know what you're talking about here. If you want to understand the difference between time and whatever it is that physicist are talking about read this...

Summit Clock Experiment 2.0: Time is Absolute​

This isn't even correct according to the physicists! It's time and SPACE that are tied together in Einstein's theories. Matter effects "spacetime" it does not create it or cause it to exist.

Incidentally, space, like time, is not a thing, it is an idea. It is a convention of language used to convey information about the size and location of objects, relative to other objects but space itself does not have its own ontological existence.

On this much, we agree.


Saying it doesn't make it so.

Did you mean to use the word "when" in that sentence? God created time WHEN...

How can you not see the inherent contradiction? Absolutely text book stolen concept fallacy.


BEFORE THAT!!!

Did you really just say that?!!!

You will never stop contradicting yourself in this manner so long as you persist in any discussion about existence outside of time. You won't stop because it is impossible not to do it. That's all the proof anyone should need that it's false.


That's one definition. It isn't the only one. When talked about as though it were a place, it usually means "timelessness" but regardless of its definition, it has no bearing on whether time exists. In other words, the concept is not dependent upon the idea of timelessness. Eternity is simply an infinite length of time.


Eternity has no rationally consistent meaning except except as a measure of time. Again, eternity is an infinite length of time.


Says who, you?

What do you even mean by that?

Saying it doesn't make it so, Leatherneck!

Sorry, but stating your belief doesn't count as an argument. The bible does not teach that God created time and if it did, it would be proof that the bible is a fairy tale.

This is silly and demonstrates an ignorance of the meaning of the term in nearly any context. Your Augustinian friends, where you get all this timelessness nonsense from, would even disagree with you here.

How about transcendence, does God transcend transcendence?

That's effectively the sort of nonsense you just stated.

Clete

You want to see a liar go look in the mirror. I posted the scripture but your philosophy is destroying your ability to grasp scripture,and or believe the witness of scripture. I am surprised you cannot accept that ALL things were created by God it is amazing because a child could understand the meaning of ALL.

Col 1:16 - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,whether they be thrones, or dominions,or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. I know this is really hard for some but can you see the ALL in Col.1:16. For the slow time is a part of all.

 

[Clete]

You want to see a liar go look in the mirror.

Nope. I'm the one here defending what I believe with actual argumentation. You've got nothing but your a priori doctrine and the pretense that simply saying something makes it true.

I posted the scripture but your philosophy is destroying your ability to grasp scripture,and or believe the witness of scripture.

Liar!

I responded directly to the mindless quote a scripture that said precisely nothing about the creation of time.

You knew in advance of having posted it that it said nothing about the creation of time but, again, you really do seem to think that your simply declaring your personal opinions makes them magically turn into the truth of reality! (Actually, I know that you don't actually think that, which is what makes what you're doing here a lie.)

I am surprised you cannot accept that ALL things were created by God it is amazing because a child could understand the meaning of ALL.

Time is not a thing as I've already established without rebuttal from you.

Did God create Harry Potter?

 

[Leatherneck]

Nope. I'm the one here defending what I believe with actual argumentation. You've got nothing but your a priori doctrine and the pretense simply saying something makes it true.


Liar!

I responded directly to the mindless quote a scripture that said precisely nothing about the creation of time.

You knew in advance of having posted it that it said nothing about the creation of time but, again, you really do seem to think that you simply declaring your personal opinions makes them magically turn into the truth of reality! (Actually, I know that you don't actually think that, which is what makes what you're doing here a lie.)


Time is not a thing as I've already established.

Did God create Harry Potter?

I am talking about scripture and you who have nothing talk about Harry Potter which is typical because you have nothing but your philosophy and opinion.
.

Col 1:16 - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,whether they be thrones, or dominions,or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. I know this is really hard for some but can you see the ALL in Col.1:16. For the slow time is a part of all.

 

[glorydaz]

Did you really miss the point of the comment?

I may have. Some of your points must go over my head.

Anyone can believe anything!

I don't care what you believe, I care about what you can establish with scripture and plain reason.

Yep, my philosophy exactly.

It's only a "stupid question" because there's no way for you to answer it that is consistent with your doctrine!

Saying it doesn't make it so.

The question was rhetorical! Of course God would not have broken had Adam chosen to obey! But the whole concept of Adam's obedience is completely outside of anything that can fit into your ideas about who God is and how He works! According to you, Adam did what He did because God planned it that way from long before Adam ever existed!

So, you actually think that our Great and all knowing God created a man and didn't know that man would disobey the ONE command he was given? Every heard of forbidden fruit. Of course God knew. Put your kid in a room and tell them they can play with everything except a little glass saucer on a ledge. There's probably some old Art Linkletter shows you could watch.

You're the only one I'm inclined to call an idiot.

Now, don't tease me like that, Clete. I've watched you you action the last few days. A sight to behold.

What in the world are you even talking about anyway? How would God having plans based on Adam's obedience imply that God was an idiot? Why would God have planned (i.e. intended) to have Adam to do anything other than obey Him? Sure, God had a plan in place to deal with disobedience but that doesn't mean He wanted it to happen!

When you tell your child to do something do you expect them to obey you? Your expectation (i.e. your plan) might not work out but that doesn't mean you were idiotic for having the expectation. Why would it be different for God? Are you somehow smarter than God?

Clete

Gotcha now, Clete. I would not for a minute expect my child to obey....especially if they were young. If they don't disobey, they don't learn.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

24 - God’s People Believe they can Change God’s Mind and they Do Change His Mind including as Jesus teaches.
"Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God" Ex. 32:11-13; "I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure with which the Lord was angry with you, to destroy you. But the Lord listened to me at that time also. And the Lord was very angry with Aaron and would have destroyed him; so I prayed for Aaron" Deut. 9:19-20; Jeremiah believed people could change God's mind, and especially Moses and Samuel, as indicated by him writing this under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, "Then the Lord said to me, 'Even if Moses and Samuel stood before Me [even then!], My mind would [still] not be favorable toward this people...' " Jer. 15:1; "Therefore He said that He would destroy them, had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, to turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them" Ps. 106:23; persistent widow Luke 18:4-7; Abraham pressing God to be merciful to Sodom and Gomorrah Gen. 18:23-32.

Who's spirit was in them?
1Peter 1:11
11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

29 - Prayer Can Change What Would Otherwise Be the Future.
Jehoahaz pleaded and God listened and helped deliver Israel 2 Kings 13:4; God told Hezekiah to prepare for "you shall die and not live" but the King pleaded with God who then said, "I have heard your prayer and surely I will heal you... And I will add to your days fifteen years" 2 Kings 20:1-6; a persistent widow pleaded with an unjust judge and Jesus interpreted His own parable, Shall not God answer the prayers of those who continue to ask God Luke 18:1-7; the friend who comes asking for bread at midnight is resisted until his persists and Jesus interprets His parables saying So ask God "and it will be given to you" Luke 11:5-9; Jesus could call for twelve legions of angels (to save Him from the cross) Mat. 26:53; etc.

So you think there was a chance of Jesus doing that?
I don't.
John 8:29
29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 14:31
but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.


Open theist Dispy's really should pay more attention to Jesus as well as Hebrews.

3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

We don't?

Straw man.

Prove to me there is a God.

Again, Straw man.

Clete said it and by my reckoning it was purdy dumb considering it was straw/stubble and at this point I'm not even sure he's building upon the Rock...

Matthew 5:27,28

27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Looks like Jesus figures the idea is the same.

 

[JudgeRightly]

We set our clocks by the sun.

VVVVVVV

. . .

Nope. Physics defines time as what a clock reads.

That's not a joke and that's not hyperbole. The "time" physicists are talking about is clocks not the sort of time you and I are talking about.

Trust me, you don't know what you're talking about here. If you want to understand the difference between time and whatever it is that physicist are talking about read this...

Summit Clock Experiment 2.0: Time is Absolute​

This isn't even correct according to the physicists! It's time and SPACE that are tied together in Einstein's theories. Matter effects "spacetime" it does not create it or cause it to exist.

Incidentally, space, like time, is not a thing, it is an idea. It is a convention of language used to convey information about the size and location of objects, relative to other objects but space itself does not have its own ontological existence.

. . .

 

[JudgeRightly]

Who's spirit was in them?
1Peter 1:11
11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

What even are you talking about?

So you think there was a chance of Jesus doing that?
I don't.

So you're calling Jesus a liar?

John 8:29
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 14:31
but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.

Open theist Dispy's really should pay more attention to Jesus as well as Hebrews.

3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Allow me to word this in a way that makes sense to your modern ear:"

"...although the works from the foundation of the world were finished."

The prepositional phrase, "from the foundation of the world," is modifying "works," not "finished."

It's not saying that the works were finished AT the foundation of the world. It's saying that all the works that have been started from the foundation of the world have been finished.

Prove to me there is a God.

* The Laws of Physics and Chemistry Have NO Symbolic Logic Functions: Therefore, any biological scheme that uses symbolism cannot arise by any material means based on classical physics and chemistry.

RSR: Best Arguments Against Atheism | KGOV.com

kgov.com

Ergo, God exists

I'll even do it twice:

Morality exists, therefore, a moral God must exist.

Matthew 5:27,28

27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

You're kidding me, right?

This is your argument that God is outside of time?

Jesus is saying that the moment a man looks on a woman with lust, he commits adultery. He's not saying he committed adultery prior to looking with lust.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

What even are you talking about?

The mystery.
Who do you think Moses was signifying when he stood between God and the people?
You do realize it was the spirit of Christ in him that motivated the act don't you?
It was that spirit teaching folks about what Christ would do, not that folks can change God's mind.
Are you still reading the old testament with the vail over your eyes?
Another bonus is that the prophets spoke of the sufferings of Christ as well as the things he would do.
Not only that David prophesied of his death, burial and resurrection.
The mystery was Christ in us.

So you're calling Jesus a liar?

This is why you shouldn't break apart my post.
Out of Jesus' own mouth he said he wouldn't.
God trained up his son all through the old testament.
A case in point is when God showed his son the faith he gave Abraham.
God says train up a child in the right way and when he is old he will not depart from it.
So is God a liar?
With the scripture I gave, you should have never asked if I was calling Jesus a liar...

John 8:29
29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 14:31
but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.

Allow me to word this in a way that makes sense to your modern ear:"

"...although the works from the foundation of the world were finished."

The prepositional phrase, "from the foundation of the world," is modifying "works," not "finished."

It's not saying that the works were finished AT the foundation of the world. It's saying that all the works from the foundation of the world have been finished.

Not so.
The end was declared from the beginning. (Done Deal)
God is still working.
Isaiah 46:10
10I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'

* The Laws of Physics and Chemistry Have NO Symbolic Logic Functions: Therefore, any biological scheme that uses symbolism cannot arise by any material means based on classical physics and chemistry.

RSR: Best Arguments Against Atheism | KGOV.com

kgov.com

Ergo, God exists.

I said proof, not odds or arguments.

You're kidding me, right?

This is your argument that God is outside of time?

Jesus is saying that the moment a man looks on a woman with lust, he commits adultery. He's not saying he committed adultery prior to looking with lust.

No.
That was in regards to Clete saying an idea is not the same as the actual thing.
Check post #362 and you should see it.
Course when you do yer gonna have to admit that what I posted wasn't a strawman.

 

[Clete]

I am talking about scripture and you who have nothing talk about Harry Potter which is typical because you have nothing but your philosophy and opinion.

I'm the only one here who has presented a thorough biblical argument - two of them in fact!

You've presented a single proof text that doesn't say a syllable about time being created!

You want to say that time is included in "ALL things", including things that don't actually exist and so I just asked about the first non-existent thing I could think of.

I knew you wouldn't answer the question when I asked it because you're the one here not being honest. You're not even really trying to be. You believe what you've been taught and have neither the intelligence nor the inclination to worry about whether it makes any sense.

.

Col 1:16 - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,whether they be thrones, or dominions,or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. I know this is really hard for some but can you see the ALL in Col.1:16. For the slow time is a part of all.

Repeating the same nonsense does nothing to change the fact that time does not actually exist; is not an ontological thing. It is an idea. Therefore it wasn't created and Colossians 1 does not apply. Same goes for space and Harry Potter.

Clete

 

[Clete]

Yep, my philosophy exactly.

Then why don't you make actual arguments instead of simply stating your doctrine?

Saying it doesn't make it so.

If it isn't true then prove it! All you have to do is answer the question in a manner that is consistent with your doctrine!

Forgot the question? Here it is again...

Do you suppose God would have broken had Adam decided to obey God's command and refused to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? Would God have freaked out and been defeated by Adam's obedience? Certainly not!

Go ahead, glorydaz! Answer the question! I mean the question really was rhetorical but since you want to imply that I'm wrong by snarkily repeating "Saying it doesn't make it so." then either put up or shut up. Answer the question!

You won't do it!

The second you start to make the attempt you'll understand instantly that anything you say will contradict your entire point about whatever it is you think God's plan was.

So, you actually think that our Great and all knowing God created a man and didn't know that man would disobey the ONE command he was given?

I don't suggest that it come as a complete shock to God that Adam disobeyed Him. God had thought through the possibilities and knew how He would react to whatever came to pass. BUT, however much God may have anticipated Adam's disobedience, expecting something or making plans in case something happens is not the same and knowing for certain that it will definitely happen.

Ever heard of forbidden fruit. Of course God knew. Put your kid in a room and tell them they can play with everything except a little glass saucer on a ledge. There's probably some old Art Linkletter shows you could watch.

To keep the fruit analogy going...you're comparing apples to oranges here. Adam was not created with a sinful nature. That was acquired when he disobeyed God. As the father of all mankind, he has passed that trait on to his progeny, including young kids that are told not to play with shiney objects that are intentionally left within their reach.
Unlike those kids, Adam was "very good" (Gen. 1:6) and as such was fully capable of obeying God.

Now, don't tease me like that, Clete. I've watched you you action the last few days. A sight to behold.

Don't say idiotic things and I won't call you an idiot! It's that simple.
By "idiotic" I mean things that are completely stupid like suggesting that I believe God to be an idiot because He created a being with the ability to obey Him.

On that point, by the way, how terrible a creator must you believe God to be?! He wasn't even able to create a man with even the slightest ability to obey Him! Wow!

Gotcha now, Clete. I would not for a minute expect my child to obey....especially if they were young. If they don't disobey, they don't learn.

If that is actually true then you are not only an idiot, you're a terrible parent!
That is not a joke and I am not kidding! If what you said here is actually the real truth then you need immediate parental guidance. Go to your pastor TODAY and ask him how to raise kids that willingly obey their parents. He may be no better than you are but if you have NO EXPECTATION of obedience from your children, he can't be any worse. In fact, your pastor is too risky. Here, read this....

To Train Up a Child by Michael and Debi Pearl

If I tell my child to go play in the back yard and not to leave the back yard then I FULLY EXPECT that this is precisely what he will do!
That doesn't mean that it's impossible that he might disobey but such disobedience would the exception, not the rule and it most certainly would not be what I would expect! If such disobedience were to take place, I would take steps to ensure that the child understands that to disobey his parents costs him more than he is willing to pay. (i.e. I punish him sufficiently to communicate that it isn't worth it to disobey.)

But such disobedience would just about blow my mind! I would be more shocked than I would be angry! That's because I've trained my children from the time they were able to control their own movement to do what is asked of them. Training that started long before there was any morality involved in their actions. The result is obedient children who were brought up in the fear and admonition of the Lord who obey me, not because they cannot disobey but because they know I love them and they therefore love and trust me and want to be obedient.

Your relationship with your own kids will mirror your relationship with God and vise versa. From that perspective, it's no surprise that you "would not for a minute expect [your] child to obey". There are two conversely correlated truths....

• Your children are rampantly disobedient to the point that you "would not for a minute expect" them to be obedient to you and so you believe in a God who creates people with no ability to obey Him.
• God created people without the ability to obey Him and so you expect to raise children that you "would not for a minute expect" to be obedient to you.

Again, presumming that this is actully true of your relationship with your kids, that's is a sad, deplorable state to find yourself in. What's more, it isn't necessary. The bible does not teach that Adam was destined to disobey God. It does not teach that Adam was incapable of doing otherwise. It does not teach that God KNEW (i.e. with certainty) that Adam would sin. It just doesn't teach anything like any of that. On the contrary, the bible teaches that God is alive! God is a real person, with real emotions, a real personality and real desires. He desired to create mankind because He wanted to have a real, loving, personal, meaningful, two-way relationship with them. You can't have a relationship with robots that have no will of their own and only do exactly as you intended for them to do! But God understands that the relationships He intends to build with those who choose to obey Him are not only worth the risk of having some decide they don't want that relationship and who rebel and become evil but more than that, salvaging those relationships was worth Him becoming a man and suffering a death at the hands of those very one who chose to reject Him. How inexpressibly amazing is the love God has shown toward us!

Clete

 

[Leatherneck]

I'm the only one here who has presented a thorough biblical argument - two of them in fact!

You've presented a single proof text that doesn't say a syllable about time being created!

You want to say that time is included in "ALL things", including things that don't actually exist and so I just asked about the first non-existent thing I could think of.

I knew you wouldn't answer the question when I asked it because you're the one here not being honest. You're not even really trying to be. You believe what you've been taught and have neither the intelligence nor the inclination to worry about whether it makes any sense.

Repeating the same nonsense does nothing to change the fact that time does not actually exist; is not an ontological thing. It is an idea. Therefore it wasn't created and Colossians 1 does not apply. Same goes for space and Harry Potter.

Clete

That is hilarious you presented a biblical argument using no scripture. FYI, your philosophy and opinion are not scripture. Isa 57:15 KJV - 15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

 

[Clete]

That is hilarious you presented a biblical argument using no scripture.

You have to actually read my posts, fool. Both arguments presented with full to the brim with scripture. It isn't my fault that you're too lazy to bother reading them.

Here, I'll post them again just so as to remove any excuse you might want to employ about not being able to find them...

Proof from the Bible that God is In Time​

Is God Outside of Time? Not according to the Bible.​

FYI, your philosophy and opinion are not scripture.

But they are both in full agreement with scripture which itself is philosophy.

Isa 57:15 KJV - 15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Proof texting is literally all you've got. If you weren't allowed to read your doctrines into the text, you'd me mute as a stone.

The Hebrew word here that is translated as "eternity" is "ad". It is only translated "eternity" in this single verse. Elsewhere it is translated ever (41x), everlasting (2x), end (1x), eternity (1x), ever (with H5769) (1x), evermore (1x), old (1x), perpetually (1x).

I'm not suggesting that "eternity" is an incorrect translation, I'm saying that it doesn't work as a proof text for your irrational doctrine because the word DOES NOT mean "existence outside of time". On the contrary, the word means "for ever" or "continuous". Strong's Concordance puts it like this....

Strong's H5703

1. perpetuity, for ever, continuing future
   1. ancient (of past time)
   2. for ever (of future time)
      1. of continuous existence
   3. for ever (of God's existence)

And so, even your own proof texts actually support my view, which is a good thing too because, as I've pointed out already, if the bible taught something so transparently irrational as timeless existence, it would falsify itself.

Clete

 

[Leatherneck]

You have to actually read my posts, fool. Both arguments presented with full to the brim with scripture. It isn't my fault that you're too lazy to bother reading them.

Here, I'll post them again just so as to remove any excuse you might want to employ about not being able to find them...

Proof from the Bible that God is In Time​

Is God Outside of Time? Not according to the Bible.​

But they are both in full agreement with scripture which itself is philosophy.


Proof texting is literally all you've got. If you weren't allowed to read your doctrines into the text, you'd me mute as a stone.

The Hebrew word here that is translated as "eternity" is "ad". It is only translated "eternity" in this single verse. Elsewhere it is translated ever (41x), everlasting (2x), end (1x), eternity (1x), ever (with H5769) (1x), evermore (1x), old (1x), perpetually (1x).

I'm not suggesting that "eternity" is an incorrect translation, I'm saying that it doesn't work as a proof text for your irrational doctrine because the word DOES NOT mean "existence outside of time". On the contrary, the word means "for ever" or "continuous". Strong's Concordance puts it like this....

Strong's H5703

1. perpetuity, for ever, continuing future
   1. ancient (of past time)
   2. for ever (of future time)
      1. of continuous existence
   3. for ever (of God's existence)

And so, even your own proof texts actually support my view, which is a good thing too because, as I've pointed out already, if the bible taught something so transparently irrational as timeless existence, it would falsify itself.

Clete

The writer on whom you depend does not know scripture. From your link—>
When Reading in "the Greek" about God and Time, We See that God is:

- timeless,
- in an eternal now,
- not was nor will be but is, and
- has no past
- has no future.

Of course NOT ONE of these phrases are in the Bible. They're from Plato. And they're uncritically repeated by Christians in various systematic theology textbooks. Looks like Like ole boy missed this from scripture. Isa 57:15 KJV - 15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.