beloved57
Well-known member
I don't know what you talking about. Spiritually dead people need to be made alive before they can respond spiritually.
Its of Faith so to be of Grace
- Thread starter beloved57
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That is not true. Nobody gets saved before being able to respond to God's demand for a response. God does not save sinners for reasons unrelated to their responses to His call. He only saves sinners who do properly respond to His call.
Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Then pay attention to what I'm asking you!
Chapter verse!
Because all the verses I've given you in the past month or so have said otherwise!
For example:
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. - John 5:40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:40&version=NKJV
Jesus is talking to spiritually dead people, yet He isn't giving them life, why? Because THEY are NOT WILLING to COME TO HIM.
If spiritually dead people need to be made alive before they can respond spiritually, then Jesus WOULD NOT HAVE SAID THAT! He would have said "I have not given you life so that you may come to me"!
Spiritually dead people need LIFE! How do they get life? BY COMING TO CHRIST!
Why would God ask something of someone if they cannot respond? Do you think God prefers talking to walls? Or perhaps God asks people to come to Him but they REFUSE, just as the verse above says.
They REFUSED, beloved57. It's not that they were incapable of responding! They were fully capable of responding and when they heard His call, THEY REFUSED TO COME TO HIM!
Which is why I've been trying to tell you that spiritually dead DOES NOT MEAN incapable of responding to God's calls!
beloved57
Well-known member
Man by nature is dead to God, thats why he needs to be made alive Eph 2:1,5
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Hence before they can come to Christ they need to be alive ! Coming is activity, motion, a evidence of life !
Literally what I just said!
Spiritually dead people need LIFE! How do they get life? BY COMING TO CHRIST!
CHAPTER AND VERSE?
Because that ISN'T IN SCRIPTURE!
And yet, Christ didn't think a man needed to be alive (spiritually) to come to Him, otherwise He wouldn't have said:
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. - John 5:40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:40&version=NKJV
They're dead, therefore they need life, but THEY REFUSED TO COME TO HIM SO AS TO HAVE LIFE! It necessarily implies that they CAN come to Him, DESPITE BEING DEAD!
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beloved57
Well-known member
A dead person cant come to Christ Jn 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
In order to come to Christ, you must be alive. Coming is an activity of Life. Dead people dont come and cant come !
beloved57
Well-known member
jr
Correct, they get spiritual life the same way they received physical life, through New Birth. The Spirit quickens, gives Life Jn 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Thats why Jesus said you must be born again, for without it, you remain dead !
Jn 5:40 isnt talking about spiritual life, its talking about eternal life. Those jews thought by keeping the law of moses, their physical circumcision, and their racial connection with abraham they could have eternal life. However eternal life is through Christ Jn 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Correct, they get spiritual life the same way they received physical life, through New Birth. The Spirit quickens, gives Life Jn 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Thats why Jesus said you must be born again, for without it, you remain dead !
Jn 5:40 isnt talking about spiritual life, its talking about eternal life. Those jews thought by keeping the law of moses, their physical circumcision, and their racial connection with abraham they could have eternal life. However eternal life is through Christ Jn 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
The very verse you quote says EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE, b57! Just READ IT!
The highlighted portion is what I'm talking about, b57!
God drawing someone enables them, a DEAD PERSON, to come to Him, SO. THAT. THEY. MAY. HAVE. LIFE!
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. - John 5:40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:40&version=NKJV
Chapter and verse!
Because it's not taught in scripture!
No, it's not. There is no passage in scripture that says or indicates that a dead person cannot come to Christ if he has been drawn by God.
Jesus said, to dead people:
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. - John 5:40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:40&version=NKJV
Which means not only do they have the ABILITY, to come, but THEY REFUSED to come!
Refusing to come and being unable to come are not the same thing. Jesus said to dead men:
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. - John 5:40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:40&version=NKJV
They refused to come.
Jesus did NOT say to dead men:
"I have not given you life, therefore you cannot come to Me."
What He DID say by necessity implies they, dead men, had the ability to come, and refused to come.
There is no verse that says that dead men "cannot" come when they are called.
You cannot explain the Old Testament using your erroneous arguments about election. Sinners in the Old Testament had to offer a yearly sacrifice to cover their sins. God did not do that for them. You cannot point out a single instance in the OT where God saved a man and then began talking to him as though though that man was unable to hear or understand God before that time.
If you do not quote my post or use my @ tag, I will more than likely miss your posts to me. But I wouldn't be surprised if that's what you wanted to begin with...
None of this goes against what I'm saying. In fact, if anything, it supports what I'm saying!
So there's two kinds of life now, is there?
It doesn't change the fact that dead men (those who are separated from God, currently and, unless something changes, for the rest of eternity) need life.
What Jesus said holds true:
In order to have life, you must come to Him.
You CANNOT obtain new life until you come to Him.
John 6:44 says that if a person is drawn by God, he can come.
How does God draw someone? BY THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL!
Completely irrelevant to the point I was making. Quit obfuscating.
beloved57
Well-known member
Man of his own freewill cant come to Christ Jn 6:44,65 he doesnt have the abilty, hes dead in sin.
beloved57
Well-known member
So now I hope you understand.
Sinners can clearly hear God and do what He asks them to do. The Bible is full of examples.
Except that he does! Per the very verse you just cited, John 6:44!
How do you just keep ignoring the point I'm making?!
THERE IS NO VERSE IN SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THAT A DEAD MAN CANNOT COME TO CHRIST AFTER BEING CALLED!
You have not once addressed anything I said in this post:
Do so.
Understand what? That you have absolutely no idea how to respond to what I'm saying? That you have no idea what you're talking about at all?
Yeah, I understand those two things perfectly!
beloved57
Well-known member
Jn 6:44 confirms total inability of the natural man to come to Christ, then it confirms the efficasious call or irrestible grace of God in drawing the elect to Christ.
No, it doesn't, because it says "unless the Father draws a man."
There is nothing efficacious about the call, and there is no scripture to back up your claim.
Again, there is NO SCRIPTURE that says that a dead man (spiritually dead) cannot come to Christ when He calls them, but there are MANY verses that show, like John 5:40, that they can, and not only can they, but they can even REFUSE the call!
beloved57
Well-known member
Sure it does. Man cannot [inability] come to Christ/believe in Him, except the Father draws Him, that drawing is efficacious grace causing a person to come to Christ, to believe on Him. This thread promotes Gods Grace my friend.
Saying it doesn't make it so, B57.
Therefore he can, but in order to do so, the Father must draw him.
Thank you for conceding the point.
Chapter and verse that says that giving grace is efficacious.
Because as Jesus said:
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. - John 5:40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:40&version=NKJV
They can come to Him, but they are not willing!!!!
There is no scripture that supports this claim.
You HAVE to assume that grace is effectual. You cannot get that from scripture! It's called begging the question, and it's a fallacy for a reason!
It promotes an unbiblical view of God's grace. It does not promote God's grace, which is available and sufficient for all, but not effectual in all.
beloved57
Well-known member
Man is dead spiritually to God, he died in Adam, in Adam all sinned and died Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
All men sinned in Adam before they were born
All men in Adam died, death was passed upon them. So babies in Adam who are men at their beginnings, have already in Adam sinned and died.
Men naturally dont come to God, seek God Rom 3:11 because they are dead in sin Rom 3:9
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Man is born dead to God and the only thing that will rectify that is to be born again, not naturally, but Spiritually.
And in Christ, "all shall be made alive," no?
But they have to be "in Christ" before they are made alive!
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. - 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians15:21-22&version=NKJV
AMEN!
But don't forget the rest of the passage!
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. - Romans 5:18-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans5:18-19&version=NKJV
Wrong. This is not taught in scripture.
"In Adam" just means "in the flesh." It's a figure of speech.
Wrong. This is not taught in scripture.
Which says nothing at all about them being able to RESPOND to God's calling.
Says nothing at all about them being able to RESPOND to God's calling.
Which just means they are separated from God, not "corpse-like dead unable to respond to God's calling."
AMEN!
Chapter verse!
Because it's NOT IN SCRIPTURE!
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. - John 5:40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:40&version=NKJV
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