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REPORT: The Death Penalty Debate - By Bob Enyart

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  • Originally posted by koban
    Is Freak unbanned???

    Turn him loose!
    I was in the giving mood.
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    • Originally posted by Knight
      I was in the giving mood.
      These bannings are breaking me down...

      Perhaps, that's your plan? Break down Freak.

      Comment


      • Nice to see you again Freak. Merry Christmas.
        The state — whatever its particular forms — always expresses itself as a collective form of property ownership. All political systems are socialistic, in that they are premised upon the subservience of individual interests to collective authority. Communism, fascism, lesser forms of state socialism, and welfarism, are all premised upon the state’s usurpation of privately-owned property. Whether one chooses to be aligned with the political "Left," "Right," or "Middle," comes down to nothing more than a preference for a particular franchise of state socialism.

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        • Originally posted by Freak
          These bannings are breaking me down...

          Perhaps, that's your plan? Break down Freak.


          Welcome back, Freak!


          May I introduce you to Squeaky?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Freak
            These bannings are breaking me down...

            Perhaps, that's your plan? Break down Freak.

            If by break down you mean cooperate then yes.

            Welcome back.
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            • Originally posted by Knight
              I was in the giving mood.

              Axacta?

              Comment


              • Still need to be persuaded on the death penalty

                I have not been persuaded by Scripture for the death penalty, although, I would in my own opinion like to have the death penalty. But...my opinion doesn't count. I liked your examples of God forgiving David for adultery and murder during the OT law, and hence, His forgiveness for the adulteress in the NT. However, since He was slain before the foundations of the earth and it was and is by faith that we receive His new covenant, wouldn't David automatically fall under grace just as the harlot did...both were before His actual crucifiction? There were many OT elected people who did things they were not suppose to do but were covered by His grace through faith. Now, for other Scriptures where Jesus is recounting the OT law: Jesus came and fulfilled the Law because He was perfect and was able to fulfill every holy word of the law. He didn't get rid of it but instead showed the Jews where they were lacking in the Law i.e. anger = murder or in other words the spirit of the Law. He reminded them of the Law and then gave them a higher standard that the OT Law was requiring of them and they were unaware of. He showed them this to show them how impossible it was for them to uphold the Law and how much they needed His salvation. He never continued His conversation with them to say that they needed to institute the death penalty on those who were angry. Now for Romans 13 that verse doesn't talk about the death penalty and here's why. It talks about people who are breaking the law (evil doers) then it says not to be evil doers or the sword will be taken to them. Now are we to take the sword to every evil doer? Shouldn't that be interpreted as the sword of the law just like in another verse it says that the Word of God is the sword? I think so, otherwise, we will have to put everyone in America to death. As for Rev. 13:10, this isn't talking about the death penalty at all! This verse is in the middle of the Antichrist "ruling" the earth...he isn't in the business of fulfilling God's law. In fact, just the opposite...he will murder the saints of Christ. This verse is talking about the persecution of the saints either by being imprisoned or executed...the last sentence is the clue..."Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." Persecution is the patience and faith of the saints. Lastly, just because Paul acknowledges the Roman law concerning the death penalty doesn't mean he agreed with it. Paul wasn't political and wasn't in the business of trying to change the laws of the land. Many Roman laws made it lawful to kill Christians and also to abort babies. Now, the fact that Paul didn't go around telling the Romans they should change these laws doesn't mean he ever agreed that they were Biblical laws that should be instituted. Being political and trying to change laws, is mostly American. Even persecuted countries now days don't go around trying to change their laws...they go around teaching the Gospel. I'm still up to being persuaded for the death penalty though.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by sarah
                  ... However, since He was slain before the foundations of the earth and it was and is by faith that we receive His new covenant, wouldn't David automatically fall under grace just as the harlot did...both were before His actual crucifiction? There were many OT elected people who did things they were not suppose to do but were covered by His grace through faith. Now, for other Scriptures where Jesus is recounting the OT law: Jesus came and fulfilled the Law because He was perfect and was able to fulfill every holy word of the law. He didn't get rid of it but instead showed the Jews where they were lacking in the Law i.e. anger = murder or in other words the spirit of the Law. He reminded them of the Law and then gave them a higher standard that the OT Law was requiring of them and they were unaware of. He showed them this to show them how impossible it was for them to uphold the Law and how much they needed His salvation. ....
                  Excellant!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by sarah
                    I have not been persuaded by Scripture for the death penalty, although, I would in my own opinion like to have the death penalty. But...my opinion doesn't count. I liked your examples of God forgiving David for adultery and murder during the OT law, and hence, His forgiveness for the adulteress in the NT. However, since He was slain before the foundations of the earth and it was and is by faith that we receive His new covenant, wouldn't David automatically fall under grace just as the harlot did...both were before His actual crucifiction? There were many OT elected people who did things they were not suppose to do but were covered by His grace through faith. Now, for other Scriptures where Jesus is recounting the OT law: Jesus came and fulfilled the Law because He was perfect and was able to fulfill every holy word of the law. He didn't get rid of it but instead showed the Jews where they were lacking in the Law i.e. anger = murder or in other words the spirit of the Law. He reminded them of the Law and then gave them a higher standard that the OT Law was requiring of them and they were unaware of. He showed them this to show them how impossible it was for them to uphold the Law and how much they needed His salvation. He never continued His conversation with them to say that they needed to institute the death penalty on those who were angry. Now for Romans 13 that verse doesn't talk about the death penalty and here's why. It talks about people who are breaking the law (evil doers) then it says not to be evil doers or the sword will be taken to them. Now are we to take the sword to every evil doer? Shouldn't that be interpreted as the sword of the law just like in another verse it says that the Word of God is the sword? I think so, otherwise, we will have to put everyone in America to death. As for Rev. 13:10, this isn't talking about the death penalty at all! This verse is in the middle of the Antichrist "ruling" the earth...he isn't in the business of fulfilling God's law. In fact, just the opposite...he will murder the saints of Christ. This verse is talking about the persecution of the saints either by being imprisoned or executed...the last sentence is the clue..."Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." Persecution is the patience and faith of the saints. Lastly, just because Paul acknowledges the Roman law concerning the death penalty doesn't mean he agreed with it. Paul wasn't political and wasn't in the business of trying to change the laws of the land. Many Roman laws made it lawful to kill Christians and also to abort babies. Now, the fact that Paul didn't go around telling the Romans they should change these laws doesn't mean he ever agreed that they were Biblical laws that should be instituted. Being political and trying to change laws, is mostly American. Even persecuted countries now days don't go around trying to change their laws...they go around teaching the Gospel. I'm still up to being persuaded for the death penalty though.
                    Slain before the foundation of the Earth? How so?

                    And, the death penalty as a punishment for capital crimes has nothing to do with salvation. So Christ's death does nothing for the firgiveness of crimes. Only for the forgiveness of sins.
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • 1. The death penalty costs more than life imprisonment

                      2. The death penalty is not a deterrent; in some cases, such as Ted Bundy, it's been documented as an incentive

                      3. We do not accomplish anything by becoming killers ourselves

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by littledoc
                        1. The death penalty costs more than life imprisonment

                        2. The death penalty is not a deterrent; in some cases, such as Ted Bundy, it's been documented as an incentive

                        3. We do not accomplish anything by becoming killers ourselves
                        No wonder you're an agnostic. You can't even recognize the attributes of God, such as justice.
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by littledoc
                          1. The death penalty costs more than life imprisonment

                          2. The death penalty is not a deterrent; in some cases, such as Ted Bundy, it's been documented as an incentive

                          3. We do not accomplish anything by becoming killers ourselves
                          What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. - Billy Madison's principal.
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                          • Originally posted by littledoc
                            1. The death penalty costs more than life imprisonment

                            2. The death penalty is not a deterrent; in some cases, such as Ted Bundy, it's been documented as an incentive

                            3. We do not accomplish anything by becoming killers ourselves
                            Here's an attempt at a response...

                            Where do you get your figures for the cost of capital punishment versus life imprisonment? I find it very hard to believe execution costs more than perpetual prisontime.

                            You are correct in Bundy's case; he specifically committed crimes in states with capital punishment and in fact even asked his warders, before one escape, what states in particular had the death penalty. Not sure how often this occurs, however.

                            What we accomplish is a sense of balance and restitution. A civilized society doesn't seek this duty but must accept it.




                            Comment


                            • While Jesus was on the cross the Romans inflicted the death penalty on the two criminals2 next to Him. Christ said nothing in their defense, or against their crucifixions. One of those two mocked Christ. In response, the other criminal (whom Jesus would immediately declare righteous, Luke 23:43) said of their punishments, "we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong" (Luke 23:41). What did this forgiven criminal, this newly justified man, say about the death penalty? Bottom line: the criminals were getting their just punishment. The dying criminal knew the truth, as he said, "we indeed" are "justly" punished.

                              The reason why Jesus declared righteous to the criminal that knew the truth is because he knew the truth, is that why Jesus declare righteous?
                              How do we as Christians know we are justly for our actions and criminal acts?

                              I'm confused with the term "justly".

                              Comment


                              • and....

                                note: ignore that junk (i notice this board edits the word krahp) on the left saying what political stance I am. I don't think we need to read 3 words and cast our guessings upon each member of this board. I will say myself I am making my efforts to follow God through Christ. and I know that all of me/my nature is evil, and I can only ask for God to make me what he wants.

                                how is this debate to be "solved?"

                                it has been argued forever.

                                I know I have hated and cursed in my heart. I deserve death.

                                however, by not being killed at the day of those wrongs, I have grown and sought God more.

                                Mary M has already been mentioned I believe. if she has been killed in a swift justice, would she have had the time to buy oil worth a years wages and anoint Jesus? we dont knwo all of her timing. but some think she was one who was full of demons who is mentioned eariler. or that she was a prostitute. that could get you killed in a day. . . I dont know what to say other than I know i deserve death, and so do every single one of you. and so we are alive and talking and must be thankful and seek God... but i just dont know what to say about.. supporting death of a human when... I know my heart has earned me death, but yet i dont have an execution date.
                                Last edited by alastair blake; March 20th, 2008, 12:10 AM. Reason: reason for editing: legalism

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